Re: Dealing with X.Org [was: with images]
KK It'll take more than advocacy to make it a standard. I don't need to KK tell you, I'm certain, that in Open Source software the best way to KK make things happen is to do them. KK To be a Standard though, you need to write a specification and have it KK go through X.org's standardization process. A proof of concept, in the KK form of an implementation, is useful too. Kaleb, If you can explain what we did wrong with UTF8_STRING, please do. Pro memoria, we have a sample implementation, we have a draft standard, and we spent over a year trying to get X.Org to notice. If, however, you cannot point out what we did wrong, then we can only conclude that freedesktop.org is a better forum for the standardi- sation of X protocol extensions. Regards, Juliusz ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Dealing with X.Org [was: with images]
Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: Kaleb, If you can explain what we did wrong with UTF8_STRING, please do. Pro memoria, we have a sample implementation, we have a draft standard, and we spent over a year trying to get X.Org to notice. If, however, you cannot point out what we did wrong, then we can only conclude that freedesktop.org is a better forum for the standardi- sation of X protocol extensions. I wasn't involved with X.org when that happened. It's my understanding that the proposal was made when they were busy trying to wrap up a release. They did what they could, i.e. they added UTF8_STRING to the registry. As I indicated to you previously on xfree86-forum, you should be hearing something before very long -- if you still care. -- Kaleb S. KEITHLEY ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Dealing with X.Org
If you can explain what we did wrong with UTF8_STRING, please do. KK They did what they could, i.e. they added UTF8_STRING to the KK registry. Oh wow. KK As I indicated to you previously on xfree86-forum, you should be KK hearing something before very long Oh good. So they aren't irrelevant at all. Juliusz ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Dealing with X.Org [was: with images]
On 07 Dec 2003 23:18:47 +0100, Juliusz Chroboczek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: KK It'll take more than advocacy to make it a standard. I don't need to KK tell you, I'm certain, that in Open Source software the best way to KK make things happen is to do them. KK To be a Standard though, you need to write a specification and have it KK go through X.org's standardization process. A proof of concept, in the KK form of an implementation, is useful too. Kaleb, If you can explain what we did wrong with UTF8_STRING, please do. Pro memoria, we have a sample implementation, we have a draft standard, and we spent over a year trying to get X.Org to notice. If, however, you cannot point out what we did wrong, then we can only conclude that freedesktop.org is a better forum for the standardi- sation of X protocol extensions. Regards, Juliusz i don't follow this line of argument. that kaleb guy said x.org was going to freedesktop and you think that's the solution? no que comprende. mark ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Dealing with X.Org [was: with images]
MK i don't follow this line of argument. that kaleb guy said x.org was MK going to MK freedesktop and you think that's the solution? no que comprende. I understand it can be a little bit confusing if you don't have the background. All that follows is my private perception, and doesn't represent an official XFree86 opinion. Kaleb is a respected X11 wizard. While I do not know who is or used to be his employer, for as long as I can remember he has appeared to be close the the ``official'' guardians of the X11 standard -- used to be The Open Group, is X.Org right now. (I don't know whether this was already the case in the MIT X Consortium days.) Our relations with TOG were more or less non-existent, especially after the X11R6.4 licensing debacle; Kaleb was, I believe, the one person close to TOG we would sometimes have a chat with. When TOG gave up the X11 stewardship and X.Org was created, we were hoping to establish a more healthy relationship with them. This hope was abandoned when we actually tried to get them to standardise something we had done -- we were ignored for a year, and then flamed to death for distributing the very extension that had been ignored. (You will find the flamewar archives if you google for ``UTF8_STRING precipitously''.) Kaleb, I hope I didn't mis-represent anything. Juliusz ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Dealing with X.Org
Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: KK As I indicated to you previously on xfree86-forum, you should be KK hearing something before very long Oh good. So they aren't irrelevant at all. I wouldn't say irrelevant - they are still the official keeper of the standards recognized by many companies and organizations, including the LSB UNIX standards. I would allow that their standards process has been very inefficient and unworkable to anyone not actively represented on whichever task force is working on the standard. I believe Mark Vojkovich was actively involed in the Xinerama standardization, but that has been stalled in the final stages for a long time. We got IPv6 support done because Sun and several other members committed to making it happen (and even there we've gone much slower than we hoped for). Unfortunately, while David Dawes represents XFree86 on the Executive Board, I don't know of any active XFree86 developers on the Architecture Task Force, which discusses updates to the core standard itself. (At least on the conference calls, I hear people from HP, IBM, SGI, Sun, and TOG, but don't remember ever hearing anyone not from one of the members.) That's where we've been discussing the IPv6 changes and where I presume the UTF8_STRING changes would be discussed. (There is theoretically an i18n task force, but I don't think it's active since no one's given them anything to talk about.) While it's not widely advertised, anyone can join one of the X Task Forces and participate - unfortunately, the web page on the X.org site about this is currently a cruel joke since it simply tells you to contact the task force chair to join, but gives absolutely no clue how to find out how to contact them (with two exceptions, one of which points to someone who hasn't been the Xinerama task force chair for about a year now). Of course, most of this is on the verge of becoming irrelevant, because even X.org realizes how ineffective it had become and is reorganizing. Some of this came out of the early discussion on the forum list and talks that have gone on since then to reform X.org to actively encourage participation from anyone who is interested. As Kaleb noted, they are pushing hard to get this done ASAP. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc.- Sun Software Group User Experience Engineering: G11N: X Window System ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
