Re: i855 and 1400x1050
--- emmanuel ALLAUD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit : > Hi, > I read your mails on xfree-devel about your wiki > page. > I actually had also setup one via the xwin site. The > link is : http://xwin.org:9673/xwin/XJANITOR > There are a lot of stuff about compiling XFree and > also about debugging X (using xscope, valgrind for > the > mem leaks and other oddities...). Should I just add > a > link somewhere on your wiki page to this one? > Bye > Manu Sorry my fingers betrayed me (or perhaps my brain ;-) I did not want to send this mail here. Bye Manu ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
Hi, I read your mails on xfree-devel about your wiki page. I actually had also setup one via the xwin site. The link is : http://xwin.org:9673/xwin/XJANITOR There are a lot of stuff about compiling XFree and also about debugging X (using xscope, valgrind for the mem leaks and other oddities...). Should I just add a link somewhere on your wiki page to this one? Bye Manu ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
On Tue, Sep 09, 2003 at 03:59:07PM +0200, Egbert Eich wrote: >Thomas Winischhofer writes: > > > > So, why is 1024x600 sorted out on this machine then? (I ask because SiS > > BIOSes sometimes list wrong modes when probing, and refer to wrong > > internal modes numbers. I had hoped that Intel folks just forgot to > > change their probe function for this very machine and report 1024x600 > > instead of 1400x1050.) 1024x600 is a very unusual mode (I know of only > > one machine using it), what's the point in supporting this mode on a > > machine with a 1400x1050 panel?! > > > >That 1024x600 is listed desn't mean it's supported. You have to >look for a '*' in front of the mode name. >However it's strange that this funny mode is known to the BIOS however >not 1400x1050. I seem to recall some 830M-based laptops that used this mode. Maybe the OEM didn't update their mode set. David -- David Dawes X-Oz Technologies www.XFree86.org/~dawes www.x-oz.com ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
Thomas Winischhofer wrote: Alessandro Temil wrote: Egbert Eich wrote: > > David > Here you are, i attached both i810 and vesa driver XFree86.0.log. > (by the way, i'm new of this mailing list, if it doesn't allow messages > with attachments i'll repost them inlined asap.) > > This moring i wrote to intel asking for the specifications, i hope to > get a reply soon. > Neither the VESA nor the i8xx driver lists any 1400x1050 mode. Egbert. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel I know, that's why we need to program directly the video chip, as the windows driver does. Seems so. I found no trace of a 1400x1050 mode in the BIOS. However, it seems to support different panel types (brands, models) of that very resolution. If the reason for not implementing a mode for the native resolution in the BIOS is that "the chip can be connected to many different video bridges", this is simply dumb. That way they need a huge windows driver, taking care of all that, which furthermore needs to be updated permanently if a new machine comes out... SiS folks haven't updated their Windows driver since February, and it works with about every machine in existance (due to the BIOS of all machines containing info on all supported modes for their host machine) A register dump from a windows driver would be the only way, I guess... Thomas Do you have any suggestion for what program/debugger/whatelse to use to get this dump? Alessandro ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
Thomas Winischhofer writes: > > So, why is 1024x600 sorted out on this machine then? (I ask because SiS > BIOSes sometimes list wrong modes when probing, and refer to wrong > internal modes numbers. I had hoped that Intel folks just forgot to > change their probe function for this very machine and report 1024x600 > instead of 1400x1050.) 1024x600 is a very unusual mode (I know of only > one machine using it), what's the point in supporting this mode on a > machine with a 1400x1050 panel?! > That 1024x600 is listed desn't mean it's supported. You have to look for a '*' in front of the mode name. However it's strange that this funny mode is known to the BIOS however not 1400x1050. Egbert. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
Alessandro Temil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > - Rewrite the i810 driver so it bypasses the BIOS like the Windows > > driver does. I'm not aware whether Intel would provide the required > > documentation to the the open source community. > > This was the thing i'm inquiring on. Intel seemed to be more > collaborative, they promptly replied that the problem was submitted > to the software engineers, but after that i had no more news. I'll > write them asking for the documentation, i don't think there is > any broken industrial secret with publishing the correct register > addresses that drive the video mode change, i hope to get some > response soon. Good luck. We are on Intel's Plan of Record (POR) and develop their OS/2 display drivers on behalf of IBM. To date we have not received the informaiton necessary to program the graphics hardware without the Video BIOS, both due to to technical reasons (need to add ADD cards seamlessly) as well as IP protection reasons. We have been trying for the last two years to get this information, but without any luck. If you do manage to get the information necessary, I would be very interested ;-) Regards, --- Kendall Bennett Chief Executive Officer SciTech Software, Inc. Phone: (530) 894 8400 http://www.scitechsoft.com ~ SciTech SNAP - The future of device driver technology! ~ ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
Alessandro Temil wrote: Egbert Eich wrote: > > David > Here you are, i attached both i810 and vesa driver XFree86.0.log. > (by the way, i'm new of this mailing list, if it doesn't allow messages > with attachments i'll repost them inlined asap.) > > This moring i wrote to intel asking for the specifications, i hope to > get a reply soon. > Neither the VESA nor the i8xx driver lists any 1400x1050 mode. Egbert. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel I know, that's why we need to program directly the video chip, as the windows driver does. Seems so. I found no trace of a 1400x1050 mode in the BIOS. However, it seems to support different panel types (brands, models) of that very resolution. If the reason for not implementing a mode for the native resolution in the BIOS is that "the chip can be connected to many different video bridges", this is simply dumb. That way they need a huge windows driver, taking care of all that, which furthermore needs to be updated permanently if a new machine comes out... SiS folks haven't updated their Windows driver since February, and it works with about every machine in existance (due to the BIOS of all machines containing info on all supported modes for their host machine) A register dump from a windows driver would be the only way, I guess... Thomas -- Thomas Winischhofer Vienna/Austria thomas AT winischhofer DOT net http://www.winischhofer.net/ twini AT xfree86 DOT org ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
Egbert Eich wrote: Thomas Winischhofer writes: > > It is possible that the BIOS actually knows the mode, but has no VESA > number for it. I have seen this at least on SiS hardware: SiS BIOSes > maintain two mode number lists, one with internal mode numbers, one for > VESA mode numbers. As the i810 BIOS, it has no VESA number for 1400x1050. With VESA VBIOS 3.x you don't need to have a VESA mode number. BIOSes assign their own numbers for non-VESA modes. You can query the BIOS for a list of modes and their properties. This list contains the mode numbers. SiS BIOSes don't do this AFAIK. They just compare the VESA mode number to a list of dedicated VESA mode numbers to find out about their internal mode number. Unfortunately, not all modes actually have a VESA equivalent (1400x1050 - sounds familiar...) BIOSes also list modes they know but don't support for various reasons (ie. not sufficient memory). Therefore you need to look for the supported flag. The i8xx driver does all that. So, why is 1024x600 sorted out on this machine then? (I ask because SiS BIOSes sometimes list wrong modes when probing, and refer to wrong internal modes numbers. I had hoped that Intel folks just forgot to change their probe function for this very machine and report 1024x600 instead of 1400x1050.) 1024x600 is a very unusual mode (I know of only one machine using it), what's the point in supporting this mode on a machine with a 1400x1050 panel?! Thomas -- Thomas Winischhofer Vienna/Austria thomas AT winischhofer DOT net http://www.winischhofer.net/ twini AT xfree86 DOT org ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
Egbert Eich wrote: > > David > Here you are, i attached both i810 and vesa driver XFree86.0.log. > (by the way, i'm new of this mailing list, if it doesn't allow messages > with attachments i'll repost them inlined asap.) > > This moring i wrote to intel asking for the specifications, i hope to > get a reply soon. > Neither the VESA nor the i8xx driver lists any 1400x1050 mode. Egbert. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel I know, that's why we need to program directly the video chip, as the windows driver does. I'm waiting for news from intel, i'll post here as soon as i get something. Alessandro ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
Alessandro Temil writes: > >>Hoewever, I am absolutely astonished that the graphics BIOS on a 1400x1050 > >>panel does not know how to set a 1400x1050 mode. That means, for example, > >>that the kernel console driver could never set a mode that fills the panel. > >> > >>Does the i810 driver list the modes it got from the BIOS in the server log? > >>I have a utility to read the BIOS mode list and display the results; I'll see > >>if I can dig it up for you. > > > > > > It does list the modes, and it is common for modes matching panels like > > this to not be listed. It might be worth comparing it to the list you > > get when using the 'vesa' driver. Can someone with one of these laptops > > try that and post the results? > > > > David > Here you are, i attached both i810 and vesa driver XFree86.0.log. > (by the way, i'm new of this mailing list, if it doesn't allow messages > with attachments i'll repost them inlined asap.) > > This moring i wrote to intel asking for the specifications, i hope to > get a reply soon. > Neither the VESA nor the i8xx driver lists any 1400x1050 mode. Egbert. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
Thomas Winischhofer writes: > > It is possible that the BIOS actually knows the mode, but has no VESA > number for it. I have seen this at least on SiS hardware: SiS BIOSes > maintain two mode number lists, one with internal mode numbers, one for > VESA mode numbers. As the i810 BIOS, it has no VESA number for 1400x1050. With VESA VBIOS 3.x you don't need to have a VESA mode number. BIOSes assign their own numbers for non-VESA modes. You can query the BIOS for a list of modes and their properties. This list contains the mode numbers. BIOSes also list modes they know but don't support for various reasons (ie. not sufficient memory). Therefore you need to look for the supported flag. The i8xx driver does all that. Egbert. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
Tim Roberts writes: > On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:04:19 +0200, Alessandro Temil wrote: > > >Christian Zietz wrote: > >> > >> The problem is: The current i810 driver does not only read the available > >> resolutions from the BIOS but also uses the BIOS to set the video mode. > >> So if the BIOS doesn't know of 1400x1050, it won't set it. > >> I think there are two solutions: > >> - Change the BIOS to know of 1400x1050. This should be easy for > >> manufacturer of the notebook but considerably harder than my 855patch > >> (for the video memory issue) for anyone else. > > > >I know this but at the moment i'm getting weak support from the > >manufacturer (acer), as they say they give no support to linux > >(my try to explain the difference that passes from a linux driver bug > >and a bios bug had little effect, as you can imagine) > > This path is hopeless; the engineers at Acer have absolutely no idea how to > program the graphics chipset. > > Hoewever, I am absolutely astonished that the graphics BIOS on a 1400x1050 > panel does not know how to set a 1400x1050 mode. That means, for example, > that the kernel console driver could never set a mode that fills the panel. > > Does the i810 driver list the modes it got from the BIOS in the server log? No, that's exactly the problem: The BIOS doesn't support the native mode of the panel. I suppose most manufactuerers don't bother to pay much attention to the BIOS. For them it's more importand to get the Windows driver working which doesn't make use of the BIOS and get the product on the market. > > It will be interesting to see if you get a response. Many manufacturers DO, > in fact, protect their register specifications as confidential intellectual > property. > According to Intel the i8xx get combined with too many different video bridges so that adding support for all of these would be close to impossible. The only driver that does this currently is the SiS driver. If you look at the work Thomas Winischhofer has done you can imagine that Intel did not want to pay for that. Even if we cannot get the complete docs we may be able to get enough documentation to 'tweak' a mode that is closeby. Egbert. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
Alessandro Temil wrote: Thomas Winischhofer wrote: Alessandro Temil wrote: David Dawes wrote: On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 11:25:35AM -0700, Tim Roberts wrote: On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:04:19 +0200, Alessandro Temil wrote: Christian Zietz wrote: The problem is: The current i810 driver does not only read the available resolutions from the BIOS but also uses the BIOS to set the video mode. So if the BIOS doesn't know of 1400x1050, it won't set it. I think there are two solutions: - Change the BIOS to know of 1400x1050. This should be easy for manufacturer of the notebook but considerably harder than my 855patch (for the video memory issue) for anyone else. It is possible that the BIOS actually knows the mode, but has no VESA number for it. I have seen this at least on SiS hardware: SiS BIOSes maintain two mode number lists, one with internal mode numbers, one for VESA mode numbers. As the i810 BIOS, it has no VESA number for 1400x1050. A closer look at the BIOS would perhaps help... if it turns out the BIOS has in internal mode number, one could change the mode switching from VESA to (direct) int10 and use the internal mode number(s). Thomas I'm not sure to have the necessary knowledge, but may give a try, do you know any good bios dumper/disassembler that runs under linux that you would suggest for this task? Send the BIOS to me (privately), I'll have a look. To dump it, do dd if=/dev/mem of=/tmp/vidbios.bin bs=1 count=65535 skip=786432 Thomas -- Thomas Winischhofer Vienna/Austria thomas AT winischhofer DOT net http://www.winischhofer.net/ twini AT xfree86 DOT org ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
Thomas Winischhofer wrote: Alessandro Temil wrote: David Dawes wrote: On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 11:25:35AM -0700, Tim Roberts wrote: On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:04:19 +0200, Alessandro Temil wrote: Christian Zietz wrote: The problem is: The current i810 driver does not only read the available resolutions from the BIOS but also uses the BIOS to set the video mode. So if the BIOS doesn't know of 1400x1050, it won't set it. I think there are two solutions: - Change the BIOS to know of 1400x1050. This should be easy for manufacturer of the notebook but considerably harder than my 855patch (for the video memory issue) for anyone else. It is possible that the BIOS actually knows the mode, but has no VESA number for it. I have seen this at least on SiS hardware: SiS BIOSes maintain two mode number lists, one with internal mode numbers, one for VESA mode numbers. As the i810 BIOS, it has no VESA number for 1400x1050. A closer look at the BIOS would perhaps help... if it turns out the BIOS has in internal mode number, one could change the mode switching from VESA to (direct) int10 and use the internal mode number(s). Thomas I'm not sure to have the necessary knowledge, but may give a try, do you know any good bios dumper/disassembler that runs under linux that you would suggest for this task? If someone else with more experience on this should want to help, the bios can be downloaded from acer support site and the laptop model is travelmate 661LCi (but i know at least dell inspiron 500m and latitude D400 are affected by the same problem, so their bioses should be good too) Alessandro ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
Alessandro Temil wrote: David Dawes wrote: On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 11:25:35AM -0700, Tim Roberts wrote: On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:04:19 +0200, Alessandro Temil wrote: Christian Zietz wrote: The problem is: The current i810 driver does not only read the available resolutions from the BIOS but also uses the BIOS to set the video mode. So if the BIOS doesn't know of 1400x1050, it won't set it. I think there are two solutions: - Change the BIOS to know of 1400x1050. This should be easy for manufacturer of the notebook but considerably harder than my 855patch (for the video memory issue) for anyone else. It is possible that the BIOS actually knows the mode, but has no VESA number for it. I have seen this at least on SiS hardware: SiS BIOSes maintain two mode number lists, one with internal mode numbers, one for VESA mode numbers. As the i810 BIOS, it has no VESA number for 1400x1050. A closer look at the BIOS would perhaps help... if it turns out the BIOS has in internal mode number, one could change the mode switching from VESA to (direct) int10 and use the internal mode number(s). Thomas -- Thomas Winischhofer Vienna/Austria thomas AT winischhofer DOT net http://www.winischhofer.net/ twini AT xfree86 DOT org ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 11:25:35AM -0700, Tim Roberts wrote: >On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:04:19 +0200, Alessandro Temil wrote: > >>Christian Zietz wrote: >>> >>> The problem is: The current i810 driver does not only read the available >>> resolutions from the BIOS but also uses the BIOS to set the video mode. >>> So if the BIOS doesn't know of 1400x1050, it won't set it. >>> I think there are two solutions: >>> - Change the BIOS to know of 1400x1050. This should be easy for >>> manufacturer of the notebook but considerably harder than my 855patch >>> (for the video memory issue) for anyone else. >> >>I know this but at the moment i'm getting weak support from the >>manufacturer (acer), as they say they give no support to linux >>(my try to explain the difference that passes from a linux driver bug >>and a bios bug had little effect, as you can imagine) > >This path is hopeless; the engineers at Acer have absolutely no idea how to >program the graphics chipset. > >Hoewever, I am absolutely astonished that the graphics BIOS on a 1400x1050 >panel does not know how to set a 1400x1050 mode. That means, for example, >that the kernel console driver could never set a mode that fills the panel. > >Does the i810 driver list the modes it got from the BIOS in the server log? >I have a utility to read the BIOS mode list and display the results; I'll see >if I can dig it up for you. It does list the modes, and it is common for modes matching panels like this to not be listed. It might be worth comparing it to the list you get when using the 'vesa' driver. Can someone with one of these laptops try that and post the results? David -- David Dawes X-Oz Technologies www.XFree86.org/~dawes www.x-oz.com ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:04:19 +0200, Alessandro Temil wrote: >Christian Zietz wrote: >> >> The problem is: The current i810 driver does not only read the available >> resolutions from the BIOS but also uses the BIOS to set the video mode. >> So if the BIOS doesn't know of 1400x1050, it won't set it. >> I think there are two solutions: >> - Change the BIOS to know of 1400x1050. This should be easy for >> manufacturer of the notebook but considerably harder than my 855patch >> (for the video memory issue) for anyone else. > >I know this but at the moment i'm getting weak support from the >manufacturer (acer), as they say they give no support to linux >(my try to explain the difference that passes from a linux driver bug >and a bios bug had little effect, as you can imagine) This path is hopeless; the engineers at Acer have absolutely no idea how to program the graphics chipset. Hoewever, I am absolutely astonished that the graphics BIOS on a 1400x1050 panel does not know how to set a 1400x1050 mode. That means, for example, that the kernel console driver could never set a mode that fills the panel. Does the i810 driver list the modes it got from the BIOS in the server log? I have a utility to read the BIOS mode list and display the results; I'll see if I can dig it up for you. >> - Rewrite the i810 driver so it bypasses the BIOS like the Windows >> driver does. I'm not aware whether Intel would provide the required >> documentation to the the open source community. >> >This was the thing i'm inquiring on. Intel seemed to be more >collaborative, they promptly replied that the problem was submitted to >the software engineers, but after that i had no more news. I'll write >them asking for the documentation, i don't think there is any broken >industrial secret with publishing the correct register addresses that >drive the video mode change, i hope to get some response soon. It will be interesting to see if you get a response. Many manufacturers DO, in fact, protect their register specifications as confidential intellectual property. -- - Tim Roberts, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc. ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
Christian Zietz wrote: Hi, Alessandro Temil schrieb: I'm a linux Xfree86 user, and my laptop has an LCD screen with 1400x1050 native resolution. the internal video chipset is an intel 855GM. After some hours of trying i figured out there's no way of getting that resolution under XFree86, due to the fact that the current i810 driver reads the available resolutions from the bios and completely ignores the modelines in the XF86Config file. The problem is: The current i810 driver does not only read the available resolutions from the BIOS but also uses the BIOS to set the video mode. So if the BIOS doesn't know of 1400x1050, it won't set it. I think there are two solutions: - Change the BIOS to know of 1400x1050. This should be easy for manufacturer of the notebook but considerably harder than my 855patch (for the video memory issue) for anyone else. I know this but at the moment i'm getting weak support from the manufacturer (acer), as they say they give no support to linux (my try to explain the difference that passes from a linux driver bug and a bios bug had little effect, as you can imagine) - Rewrite the i810 driver so it bypasses the BIOS like the Windows driver does. I'm not aware whether Intel would provide the required documentation to the the open source community. This was the thing i'm inquiring on. Intel seemed to be more collaborative, they promptly replied that the problem was submitted to the software engineers, but after that i had no more news. I'll write them asking for the documentation, i don't think there is any broken industrial secret with publishing the correct register addresses that drive the video mode change, i hope to get some response soon. Best Regards Alessandro ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: i855 and 1400x1050
Hi, Alessandro Temil schrieb: > I'm a linux Xfree86 user, and my laptop has an LCD screen with > 1400x1050 native resolution. the internal video chipset is an intel > 855GM. After some hours of trying i figured out there's no way of > getting that resolution under XFree86, due to the fact that the current > i810 driver reads the available resolutions from the bios and completely > ignores the modelines in the XF86Config file. The problem is: The current i810 driver does not only read the available resolutions from the BIOS but also uses the BIOS to set the video mode. So if the BIOS doesn't know of 1400x1050, it won't set it. I think there are two solutions: - Change the BIOS to know of 1400x1050. This should be easy for manufacturer of the notebook but considerably harder than my 855patch (for the video memory issue) for anyone else. - Rewrite the i810 driver so it bypasses the BIOS like the Windows driver does. I'm not aware whether Intel would provide the required documentation to the the open source community. Christian ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
i855 and 1400x1050
Hi everybody I'm a linux Xfree86 user, and my laptop has an LCD screen with 1400x1050 native resolution. the internal video chipset is an intel 855GM. After some hours of trying i figured out there's no way of getting that resolution under XFree86, due to the fact that the current i810 driver reads the available resolutions from the bios and completely ignores the modelines in the XF86Config file. I'm inquiring if there is any plan to overcome this limitation. I'm a cs student and have some knowledge in system programming, so i'm available to help the developent of this 'patch', should this be needed, and i'm also available to test/debug beta versions. I'd be grate to be contacted by people that are actually taking care of the i810 driver developement. Best Regards Alessandro Temil ___ Devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/devel
