Re: [freenet-dev] DDG Donation Roadblocks
Ian Clarke writes:
> On Saturday, February 25, 2017 08:23:00 PM Freenet wrote:
>> What is stopping the funding from DuckDuckGo (received over a year ago)
>> from being disbursed?
>
> Finding someone qualified to hire.
To get that going, we only need your comment whether we can follow-up on
it when we write job openings or bounties for the two tasks described
here:
https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/2017-February/039506.html
I cut the explanations from there for the following short descriptions.
Can we put up offers for these, using the cost estimates as payment?
(1) Title: *Darknet invitation bundles*
Description: Adding a single use node reference to an installer
executable. People could hand out the installer executable to
their friends to allow them to connect by Darknet instantly. See
- https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=166#c11290
(an overview of the requirements and options for invites) and
- https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=1342
("create a bundle installer")
Success-condition: A pull-request is accepted which adds a
single-click option in the web interface which creates a bundle
with installers for Windows, MacOS and *nix. These installers must
be preconfigured to automatically connect via darknet to the node
on which the bundle was created.
This will require single-use connection-tokens with which only the
first person who uses the installer can connect to the node which
created the installer.
Estimated cost: 3 to 3.525 weeks (~ $3000 to $3525)
(2) Title: *Fix the installers*
Description: Fix windows installers first, then add packages for
linux. See
- https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=1276 and
- https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=1275 and
- https://bugs.freenetproject.org/view.php?id=5892 and
linked issues.
Success-condition: Pull-requests are accepted which identify
problems in the windows-installer and resolve them. This includes
porting the wrapper to a 64bit JVM.
Estimated cost: 0.5 to 2 weeks (~ $500 to $2000)
The main breakage in the windows installers are 64 bit Java and the
wrapper. Therefore the requirement here would be "Freenet installs and
runs cleanly with 64 bit and 32 bit Java on Windows while using the
wrapper".
This will likely require finishing and releasing the work on compiling
the wrapper for Windows 64bit. Providing separate installers for 32bit
and for 64bit could be acceptable.
Linux packages require additional maintenance for which we might not
have the resources at the moment. Since java-based installers for Linux
work, packages need not be part of the task.
Best wishes,
Arne
--
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein
ohne es zu merken
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Re: [freenet-dev] DDG Donation Roadblocks
x...@freenetproject.org: > On Saturday, February 25, 2017 08:23:00 PM Freenet wrote: >> What is stopping the funding from DuckDuckGo (received over a year ago) >> from being disbursed? > > Finding someone qualified to hire. > We know what we want done (finally), we should be starting to open up applications for potential employees. The person with hiring authority should realize this is a priority especially if it allows our volunteers to get some of their tasks done by a paid worker. > While it is indeed frustrating to see no progress here, I would please remind > you that all of us are volunteers currently which means we have very limited > time - and that time is fully consumed by the fact that we have to: > - migrate the website > - migrate the 3 wikis > - migrate the bugtracker (I'm at it) > - migrate the mailing lists and mail > - do a Freenet release since there has not been one for half a year and we > must do one soon due to the SSL certificate expiring > > All of those are complex tasks, and thus it would be very unwise to now start > the even more complex task of hiring someone AND reviewing their code for > whether the quality is sufficient / they aren't ripping us of. > > Thus I would propose we wait until the server migration is finished before we > deal with the hiring. > We have a nice amount of resources that can be used to help with all the tasks above, the fact we are currently relying on volunteers to figure out who to hire is unacceptable. While input from the community for what goals are deemed important was nice. At the end of the day, the Freenet Project has a list of board members who should be deciding who the next employees are. This amount of administrative negligence is unacceptable of any project. Volunteers cannot be trusted to commit to a project forever, looking at the state of our disarray, we might benefit more from hiring a project manager. > > Sorry but it would be absolutely impossible to find someone trustworthy > enough > to hand them over $27500 right away in that timespan. > I thought the months of debate resulted in we are paying for piece work, where payment is made upon successful pull request. $25,000 would not be given out, nor would it be all at once. The other $2,500 was random donations which have been put towards the site redesign. Something that is almost complete. The migration of the wikis has been going on for years. The migration of the bugtracker and mailing list just started, maybe we should put those projects on hold. Starting new volunteer projects that may never end should be second to spending our resources on paid work. Something we can have a timeline to expect results. Something that will force the project to grow and potentially bring in more donations or developers. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki
On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 3:51 PM, Arne Babenhauserheide arne_...@web.de wrote:Ian Clarke writes: > On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 9:06 AM, x...@freenetproject.org wrote:Our typical > developer is using a highly sophisticated terminal mail client > > which has received decades of development. > Really? Have you conducted a survey? I can't remember the last time I saw > anyone using a terminal mail client, it was probably 15 years ago. I do — I use mu4e on Emacs, about half the time via commandline. I know that this is not a survey, it is just one datapoint. Interesting, I used mutt for a while back in 1998 or 1999, them were the days. Google Inbox these days (which does have some annoying qualities, doesn't seem to do so well with formatting quoted replies). Ian. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki
Ian Clarke writes: > On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 9:06 AM, x...@freenetproject.org wrote:Our typical > developer is using a highly sophisticated terminal mail client > > which has received decades of development. > Really? Have you conducted a survey? I can't remember the last time I saw > anyone using a terminal mail client, it was probably 15 years ago. I do — I use mu4e on Emacs, about half the time via commandline. I know that this is not a survey, it is just one datapoint. I’m writing this mail in mu4e. Best wishes, Arne -- Unpolitisch sein heißt politisch sein ohne es zu merken signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Freenet social media links (was: Re: Website Redesign Pre-pre-alpha
On Sun, 2017-02-26 at 18:32 +, Ian Clarke wrote: > Dan, > Given that any link is a de-facto endorsement, we shouldn't link to > any social > media page that isn't officially affiliated with the project. > For example, the @freenet Twitter handle is apparently controlled by > someone > with the email address "jo*@gmail.com" - I don't think I know > this > person, does anyone else? They seem to be squatting on the username, > I don't > see any tweets since it was registered in 2008. > @freenetproject seems to be associated with the email address > "tw*@f*.***" - I'm guessing this is twitter@freenetpro > ject.org? > Who does this go to? Is anyone actively administering this? > Ian. > I don't know about actively, but it's setup on: https://tweetdeck.twitter.com/ and you have admin access (along with the RMs) Florent signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki
Ok, I'm not making a specific point about any particular decision, I just don't want us be paralyzed by needing to accommodate every obscure edge-case in anything we do. On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 12:54 PM, x...@freenetproject.org wrote: On Sunday, February 26, 2017 06:39:00 PM Ian Clarke wrote: On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 9:06 AM, x...@freenetproject.org wrote: > Our typical developer is using a highly sophisticated terminal mail client > which has received decades of development. Really? Have you conducted a survey? I can't remember the last time I saw anyone using a terminal mail client, it was probably 15 years ago. Look at the user agent of the mails of Arne you have replied to in this very thread. They're sent by emacs. There in fact also is a survey - which shows mutt has a *GROWING* user amount: https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=mutt Our developer's liking terminals is also a general impression from our daily discussions on the IRC team chat over the past years. Steve uses a terminal IRC client. Florent too as far as I remember. Also we haven't had a Windows installer for years because from our dozens of contributors *nobody* was using Windows to the point of being able to maintain an installer. Yes this is unrelated to mail, but it shows how far our folks are located on the "open source spectrum". So please chose wisely with regards to shiny JavaScript cloud solutions :| Disclaimer: I use a GUI mail client, this is not self-serving. Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki
On Sunday, February 26, 2017 06:39:00 PM Ian Clarke wrote: > On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 9:06 AM, x...@freenetproject.org wrote: > > Our typical developer is using a highly sophisticated terminal mail client > > which has received decades of development. > > Really? Have you conducted a survey? > I can't remember the last time I saw > anyone using a terminal mail client, it was probably 15 years ago. Look at the user agent of the mails of Arne you have replied to in this very thread. They're sent by emacs. There in fact also is a survey - which shows mutt has a *GROWING* user amount: https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=mutt Our developer's liking terminals is also a general impression from our daily discussions on the IRC team chat over the past years. Steve uses a terminal IRC client. Florent too as far as I remember. Also we haven't had a Windows installer for years because from our dozens of contributors *nobody* was using Windows to the point of being able to maintain an installer. Yes this is unrelated to mail, but it shows how far our folks are located on the "open source spectrum". So please chose wisely with regards to shiny JavaScript cloud solutions :| Disclaimer: I use a GUI mail client, this is not self-serving. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki
On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 9:06 AM, x...@freenetproject.org wrote:Our typical developer is using a highly sophisticated terminal mail client which has received decades of development. Really? Have you conducted a survey? I can't remember the last time I saw anyone using a terminal mail client, it was probably 15 years ago. Ian. Ian Clarke Founder, The Freenet Project Email: i...@freenetproject.org ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] DDG Donation Roadblocks
The funding (combined with a lot of work by Dan) has bought us a new website, we should be seeing the fruits of this soon. It only cost a few thousand $$$. Ian. On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 8:53 AM, x...@freenetproject.org wrote: On Saturday, February 25, 2017 08:23:00 PM Freenet wrote: > What is stopping the funding from DuckDuckGo (received over a year ago) > from being disbursed? Finding someone qualified to hire. While it is indeed frustrating to see no progress here, I would please remind you that all of us are volunteers currently which means we have very limited time - and that time is fully consumed by the fact that we have to: - migrate the website - migrate the 3 wikis - migrate the bugtracker (I'm at it) - migrate the mailing lists and mail - do a Freenet release since there has not been one for half a year and we must do one soon due to the SSL certificate expiring All of those are complex tasks, and thus it would be very unwise to now start the even more complex task of hiring someone AND reviewing their code for whether the quality is sufficient / they aren't ripping us of. Thus I would propose we wait until the server migration is finished before we deal with the hiring. > I propose March 15th that the money is spent, to the best of the current > results of the poll and all discussion surrounding it. Sorry but it would be absolutely impossible to find someone trustworthy enough to hand them over $27500 right away in that timespan. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl Ian ClarkeStacks - Our AI will save your moneyhttp://trystacks.com/ ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
[freenet-dev] Freenet social media links (was: Re: Website Redesign Pre-pre-alpha
Dan, Given that any link is a de-facto endorsement, we shouldn't link to any social media page that isn't officially affiliated with the project. For example, the @freenet Twitter handle is apparently controlled by someone with the email address "jo*@gmail.com" - I don't think I know this person, does anyone else? They seem to be squatting on the username, I don't see any tweets since it was registered in 2008. @freenetproject seems to be associated with the email address "tw*@f*.***" - I'm guessing this is twit...@freenetproject.org? Who does this go to? Is anyone actively administering this? Ian. On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 1:30 AM, Dan Roberts ademan...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Everyone, I'll be posting the website for feedback tomorrow. I seem to constantly find new things to fix, but I could probably nit-pick forever, I need everyone's help catching the big things I haven't noticed. There are two things that are near-show-stoppers I intend to fix tomorrow afternoon. I'd like to also create and/or link to a google plus freenet page. I found this: https://plus.google.com/communities/107006765679470608749 I think it's worth having something. I'll be removing the pinterest and instagram social media links unless somebody thinks we should have a presence there too. The difference from twitter, google+ and facebook are that we incidentally generate content to put on those sites (news items can be copied and pasted and/or linked to), the more image-oriented social media would take extra effort (that I don't believe would be worth while). Thanks,Dan On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Ian Clarke wrote: Thanks for the update and your hard work on this! On Wed, Feb 15, 2017, 9:42 PM Dan Roberts wrote: Just a quick update. I ran into an issue that cost me a lot of time. Frustratingly it was something I removed when I first uploaded to github. I've found that trivial issues cause difficult to trace errors in pelican. I'm still moving forward, but I did have this setback. I have a three day weekend so I'll be pushing very hard through Monday to get everything in order. Ideally I'll seek feedback Saturday and/or Sunday and prepare for release Monday, this last 20% has been rough but the end is in sight. Thanks,Dan On Feb 9, 2017 6:15 PM, "Dan Roberts" wrote: Hey Ian, I didn't have a whole lot of time last weekend but I've been squeezing in time during the week as my week permitted... I'm planning to set aside most of this weekend to work on it though, I should be able to address all of the known issues during that time, so we're getting very close. Thanks,Dan On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 7:41 AM, Ian Clarke wrote: Hey Dan, How are things going with the new website? Are we close to going live with it? Ian. On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 1:19 PM, Arne Babenhauserheide arne_...@web.de wrote: Ian Clarke writes: > On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 5:34 AM, Arne Babenhauserheide arne_...@web.de wrote:A >> More importantly: However they are shown: We are lacking screenshots. > We should only include screenshots if they don't detract from the clean design. Do people install programs nowadays when they don’t get a screenshot? (a few years ago, missing screenshots were the easiest way to loose most visitors). >> Leap over censorship >> Escape total surveillance > I was never a big fan of this tagline, it's a somewhat tortured pun. When did > we get rid of the Mike Godwin quote? I don’t know why we did that, but I always disagreed with removing it. My point is: We need a strong tagline. > > “After running the Tor services for years it was a big relief to just > > shut down the services for good and say ’fuck it’. I never again > > had to worry no more about security. With Freenet I am Free, it > > suites the name pretty well if you ask me.” > > — Unkwon > > I don't think we should have swear-words on the site, definitely not on the > front page. It would look immature. Steve said that, too, and I agree with you both. We can simply remove that part of the quote. Best wishes, Arne -- Unpolitisch sein heißt politisch sein ohne es zu merken ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl Ian ClarkeStacks - Our AI will save your moneyhttp://trystacks.com/ -- Stackshttp://trystacks.com/ - Our AI will save you money Ian ClarkeStacks - Our AI will save your moneyhttp://trystacks.com/ ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki
On Saturday, February 25, 2017 10:27:11 AM Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > x...@freenetproject.org writes: > > That is unfortunately something our privacy-focused users will certainly > > not accept :| > > We could also move more of our discussions to FMS. It’s code has > nowadays been checked by at least two established users, and most > interactive development already happens over IRC. The unwritten social contract of the purpose of our mailing lists IMHO is: Low frequency discussion of subjects which are *very* important and thus must reach even the participants who are too busy to read the high volume daily traffic of IRC. This cannot be provided by FMS: It requires running and maintaining Freenet and FMS itself, with a very high uptime of "run it every day for at least some hours". That is too much hassle, we cannot expect it from e.g. computer scientists who participate in the mailing lists for noticing scientific discussions about the network. Those people don't actually always want to *run* Freenet, they're in for the science - which happens to be among the most valuable contributions, so we must not neglect their desires :| Also, the "*very* important subjects" aspect means that the lists must work even if Freenet is broken due to e.g. an attack - another reason against FMS. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki
On Saturday, February 25, 2017 07:50:05 PM Ian Clarke wrote: > While I'm more familiar with Slack, https://gitter.im/ is an alternative we > should consider that's used by a few open source projects. > Slack may have more of a barrier to entry for users, for example the Kotlin > open source project appears to require an external invite mechanism before > users can access Slack - http://slack.kotlinlang.org/ > However, Gitter seems to require a Github account, which might be a problem > for non-developers. Do those services actually support mailing lists, as in only accessing them using a real mail client? Does this actually work well or is it some cheap buggy gateway? E.g. the mails I get from you are always having very broken quoting, is that perhaps because you use such a cloud service? :| Our typical developer is using a highly sophisticated terminal mail client which has received decades of development. Having to use a cheap JavaScript web interface would frustrate those people a lot and cripple their productivity. Also the vendor lock-in would be very problematic: I currently have 3649 unprocessed mails in my Freenet inbox which I consider as TODOs. Some of them date back half a decade, and yes, I want to process all of them. How would I be supposed to resolve them if the typical cloud chat service like Gitter / Slack goes bankrupt in much less than this time and takes down our data with it? :| Sorry to annoy you with opposition yet once more. It's just that there are people who actually consider the fact that email exists since 1970 as a *good* thing - that means that it does actually work :) > As for complaints about proprietary services, nothing in the goals of our > project mandates that we only ever use open source tools. Nothing in the goals of Apple Computer obliges them to not sell 5 inch thick black laptops like Lenovo does - yet they keep selling thin white ones. - We must not forget the interests of a typical Freenet "customer", and free software is very likely among that. We'll lose some of them if we choose to become too proprietary. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] DDG Donation Roadblocks
On Saturday, February 25, 2017 08:23:00 PM Freenet wrote: > What is stopping the funding from DuckDuckGo (received over a year ago) > from being disbursed? Finding someone qualified to hire. While it is indeed frustrating to see no progress here, I would please remind you that all of us are volunteers currently which means we have very limited time - and that time is fully consumed by the fact that we have to: - migrate the website - migrate the 3 wikis - migrate the bugtracker (I'm at it) - migrate the mailing lists and mail - do a Freenet release since there has not been one for half a year and we must do one soon due to the SSL certificate expiring All of those are complex tasks, and thus it would be very unwise to now start the even more complex task of hiring someone AND reviewing their code for whether the quality is sufficient / they aren't ripping us of. Thus I would propose we wait until the server migration is finished before we deal with the hiring. > I propose March 15th that the money is spent, to the best of the current > results of the poll and all discussion surrounding it. Sorry but it would be absolutely impossible to find someone trustworthy enough to hand them over $27500 right away in that timespan. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] preserving the links to the wiki
On Saturday, February 25, 2017 11:16:07 AM Florent Daigniere wrote: > [snip.] > > > > I'd really like us to use AWS for as much as possible re: > > > hosting. It has a lot of benefits, one of which is powerful multi-user > > > support. > > > > Well I really don't care where we host as long as it provides what we > > need :) > > > > I'd like to evaluate that for AWS, but as said to be able to do so > > please tell us which package we'd be using. Thanks! > > That's not how it's going to work. I don't need you to make more > requirements up on the way (like preserving the wiki's links)... Sorry, you misunderstood me: I don't see requiring link preservation as a requirement. I merely realized that our *other* requirements, namely mailing lists and mail, will likely result in having to choose a hoster which will support link preservation as a side effect anyway. > Explain and formalise the requirements Mailing lists and mail must keep working. > and let whoever does the sysadmin > (currently yours truely) find the right solution; then you can > contribute to the process and point out which of the requirements are > not fulfilled by the solution picked. > Not the other way around. > Alternatively, takeover the sysadmin duties over too. As you just requested, I would have just asked you as the sysadmin whether the product you chose can provide that, but then I realized that whenever I ask you for something you remark that you don't want others to impose work upon you. Thus I offered to figure it out myself. Now that also seems to be not OK with you, you're asking me to take over sysadmin duties - which I had also offered in this thread and you didn't say anything about it. Please leave *some* way for people to participate in this discussion in a fruitful way - either tell us whether the Amazon product you want can provide mailing lists and mail forwarding and perhaps htaccess files as a side effect; or tell us what the product is so we can figure it out on our own. Denying both to answer questions and to give information so I can answer them to myself won't help any of us, including you. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
Re: [freenet-dev] Website Redesign Pre-pre-alpha
Dan Roberts writes: > Hey Everyone, > I'll be posting the website for feedback tomorrow. Great! > I seem to constantly > find new things to fix, but I could probably nit-pick forever, That’s common problem ☺ > I'd like to also create and/or link to a google plus freenet page. I found > this: https://plus.google.com/communities/107006765679470608749 I think > it's worth having something. There’s also the Deep Web community: https://plus.google.com/communities/104253064892524682250 > I'll be removing the pinterest and instagram social media links unless > somebody thinks we should have a presence there too. There’s a difference between thinking we should be there and having someone who does it: If we had someone who maintains them, I’d say we should be there. According to teachers, instagram is where the cool people are are nowadays. If not, not. I think this goes for every social network. > The difference from twitter, google+ and facebook are that we > incidentally generate content to put on those sites (news items can be > copied and pasted and/or linked to), the more image-oriented social > media would take extra effort (that I don't believe would be worth > while). Sounds reasonable. Best wishes, Arne -- Unpolitisch sein heißt politisch sein ohne es zu merken signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Devl mailing list Devl@freenetproject.org https://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devl
