Re: [DDN] "A picture is worth a thousand words!" "Yup, in kilobytes"
Claude Almansi wrote: > Hi Don, > > Thank you for your answer. Re: > > Donald Z. Osborn wrote: > >> >> In Niger and several years ago in cybercafes in Mali I did not >> usually have too >> much problem with loading simple images, though my tactic was always >> to run >> more than one browser window concurrently so I could work on one >> thing while >> another was loading. Much appreciated were pages that use JPEG or GIF >> images >> but also have a text only option. Including the latter should be a >> general rule >> for any international development site. (Re audio, I know of a couple >> of people >> in Bamako who received audio file attachments to e-mail, and >> downloaded and >> listened to them in cybercafes.) > > The alternative option is great, and should be used more often. The > WSIS sites didn't have it though. As to audio files in attachments, > though, would it not be better to have them for download on a web > page, saying how big they are and indicating approximate download time > on dial-up, then sending the URL for the page? Same for PDFs and other > heavy formats. This is supposed to be in the informal style handbook for webmasters. I think that what may be happening is that as more people get involved online using content management systems and weblogs, they come in not aware of this. And on top of that, there are handicap access issues. Trust me, I'm beating up PDFs right now on a project, and we simply have to be able to do better than this format when it comes to placement and readability through machine. >> >> My impression is that bandwidth issues are improving in a lot of >> places in the >> global South (certainly did in Niamey) to where loading a less flashy >> set of >> simple images is not as much a problem as it used to be. However many >> such >> places will likely remain behind the curve for a while so that >> mobilizing the >> latest tech for the maximum multimedia effect will always be >> inappropriate for >> them. > > > That's where the prospect of Microsoft launching the Longhorn OS in > 2006 (?) is worrying. Will the new programs running on it still be > compatible with the old ones? From what I read, no way my 15Gb HD, > 128kb ram, 800 MHz laptop bought in 2001 will be able to run Longhorn > and its programs. How many access points in the South will be able to > afford the needed hardware? This is one of the reasons why Linux is so popular in the developing world. But I bet you that you have 128 megabytes of RAM instead of Kilobytes, and that's a good thing. :) >> At the same time, development of text content in diverse languages where >> appropriate, and machine translation for text that won't get otherwise >> translated, should definitely be on the agenda. > > > Machine translation is certainly a vital area - and one that, as a > (still) human translator, I'm very interested in. But again, the > above-mentioned divide between educators and tech people must be > bridged too. Too many European educators tend to poo-poo at the > gobbledygook produced by translation programs, without deigning to try > and understand why programs do that, and even less try and write in a > manner that can be more accurately machine-translated. Their attitude > to machine translation - and spell-checking btw - suggests an > assumption that a little man is crouching in their computer and that > they can insult him into greater cleverness... There are cultural translations as well, and little nuances. Highly recommend the book: 'The Language Instinct' (Steven Pinker). -- Taran Rampersad [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxgazette.com http://www.a42.com http://www.worldchanging.com http://www.knowprose.com http://www.easylum.net "An idea that is developed and put into action is more important than an idea that exists only as an idea." — Buddha ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] "A picture is worth a thousand words!" "Yup, in kilobytes"
Hi Don, Thank you for your answer. Re: Donald Z. Osborn wrote: Claude, I'm glad you made the points you did, but I also see two sides to this. Having lived for a while in Niger, with poor connectivity and at the time relying on the parastatal telecom monopoly for the only connections, I know the frustration of encountering blithely high bandwidth web presentations (some by development organizations no less). But I still see an advantage in judicious and creative use of image and audio for the many multilingual markets where the dominant internet languages are not that widely used. Why not find appropriate ways to exploit the image and sound potential of the media? Research should go that way too, granted. My answer at the europalearning forum actually ended with and I perhaps should have slept over it. I'm tech-ignorant, but an end-user whose experience has involved connection only from public places with no shockwave plug-in, no sound, where you weren't allowed to save to floppy, juggling 2Mb web e-mail accounts for mailing lists and precariously storing things in so-called free online hard disks. So I bust a gasket at these affluent academics' arrogant ignorance of lowly tech dimensions. There is a divide between education theoricians and tech people too, at least in Europe. I just translated a book on e-learning by an education person who at least has lead great projects in distance learning with ICT - but is still befuddled as to the use of titles and the difference between an index and a table of contents in Word. At least he knows how to delegate - and listen to the people he delegates to. Fortunately, now the Free (as in freedom) movement has been getting more interested in sound and pics in the last years, from the mailing-lists I'm subscribed too. This will mean a greater range of lighter, less hi-tech possibilities. The bandwidth theft issue remains, though. In Niger and several years ago in cybercafes in Mali I did not usually have too much problem with loading simple images, though my tactic was always to run more than one browser window concurrently so I could work on one thing while another was loading. Much appreciated were pages that use JPEG or GIF images but also have a text only option. Including the latter should be a general rule for any international development site. (Re audio, I know of a couple of people in Bamako who received audio file attachments to e-mail, and downloaded and listened to them in cybercafes.) The alternative option is great, and should be used more often. The WSIS sites didn't have it though. As to audio files in attachments, though, would it not be better to have them for download on a web page, saying how big they are and indicating approximate download time on dial-up, then sending the URL for the page? Same for PDFs and other heavy formats. My impression is that bandwidth issues are improving in a lot of places in the global South (certainly did in Niamey) to where loading a less flashy set of simple images is not as much a problem as it used to be. However many such places will likely remain behind the curve for a while so that mobilizing the latest tech for the maximum multimedia effect will always be inappropriate for them. That's where the prospect of Microsoft launching the Longhorn OS in 2006 (?) is worrying. Will the new programs running on it still be compatible with the old ones? From what I read, no way my 15Gb HD, 128kb ram, 800 MHz laptop bought in 2001 will be able to run Longhorn and its programs. How many access points in the South will be able to afford the needed hardware? At the same time, development of text content in diverse languages where appropriate, and machine translation for text that won't get otherwise translated, should definitely be on the agenda. Machine translation is certainly a vital area - and one that, as a (still) human translator, I'm very interested in. But again, the above-mentioned divide between educators and tech people must be bridged too. Too many European educators tend to poo-poo at the gobbledygook produced by translation programs, without deigning to try and understand why programs do that, and even less try and write in a manner that can be more accurately machine-translated. Their attitude to machine translation - and spell-checking btw - suggests an assumption that a little man is crouching in their computer and that they can insult him into greater cleverness... Just my ¥0.02 ... Far more than that, Don - thanks for correcting my rant. Don Osborn Bisharat.net Impressive project, from the few pages I browsed! Are you in touch with the Laboratoire d'Analyse et de Technologie du Langage at Geneva university? http://www.latl.unige.ch/french/projets/liste_projets.html for their projects. They are interested in the accessibility aspect (at one poin, some of them were working on a geometry course for blind people). Their secular (start-up) branch is http://www.latl.ch/
Re: [DDN] "A picture is worth a thousand words!" "Yup, in kilobytes"
It would seem to me good practice, especially for those in the "divide" business, to have a very simple, very fast loading home page which would give "connectivity" options to the viewers. (Oddly, I think there are many with broadband connections and fast Pentiums who would view text as their first option.) Email text should also give reliable information as to what are the connectivity issues for any links provided -- particularly for those with heavy graphics. 11:13 AM -0500 10/20/04, Donald Z. Osborn wrote: Claude, I'm glad you made the points you did, but I also see two sides to this. ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
Re: [DDN] "A picture is worth a thousand words!" "Yup, in kilobytes"
Claude, I'm glad you made the points you did, but I also see two sides to this. Having lived for a while in Niger, with poor connectivity and at the time relying on the parastatal telecom monopoly for the only connections, I know the frustration of encountering blithely high bandwidth web presentations (some by development organizations no less). But I still see an advantage in judicious and creative use of image and audio for the many multilingual markets where the dominant internet languages are not that widely used. Why not find appropriate ways to exploit the image and sound potential of the media? In Niger and several years ago in cybercafes in Mali I did not usually have too much problem with loading simple images, though my tactic was always to run more than one browser window concurrently so I could work on one thing while another was loading. Much appreciated were pages that use JPEG or GIF images but also have a text only option. Including the latter should be a general rule for any international development site. (Re audio, I know of a couple of people in Bamako who received audio file attachments to e-mail, and downloaded and listened to them in cybercafes.) My impression is that bandwidth issues are improving in a lot of places in the global South (certainly did in Niamey) to where loading a less flashy set of simple images is not as much a problem as it used to be. However many such places will likely remain behind the curve for a while so that mobilizing the latest tech for the maximum multimedia effect will always be inappropriate for them. At the same time, development of text content in diverse languages where appropriate, and machine translation for text that won't get otherwise translated, should definitely be on the agenda. Just my ¥0.02 ... Don Osborn Bisharat.net Quoting Claude Almansi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Hi > > I wrote what follows in anger at an www.elearningeuropa.info forum > called "The Role of the New Technologies in Cultural Dialogue" > http://tinyurl.com/5m7ks , where all the initial posts insist on how > important the use of images would be for multicultural exchanges, > wondering at why so many sites are still textual, "refusing the > multimedia revolution". > The total absence of any mention of tech limitations to access angered > me, and I wrote a post entitled <<"A picture is worth a thousand words!" > "Yup, in kilobytes">> http://tinyurl.com/5qmaj : > > This subject line is from an actual exchange during the World Summit on > Information Society http://www.itu.int/wsis/ in Geneva last December. > ... ___ DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
RE: [DDN] "A picture is worth a thousand words!" "Yup, in kilobytes"
Hi Claude, And as my computer science students discovered: A picture is also worth a thousand different interpretations! :) BC @ Your Library ECU - a participant in the 2004 WA Statewide Library Marketing Campaign. Barbara Combes, Lecturer School of Computer and Information Science Edith Cowan University, Perth Western Australia Ph: (08) 9370 6072 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Whatever the cost of our libraries, the price is cheap compared to that of an ignorant nation." This email is confidential and intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify me immediately by return email or telephone and destroy the original message. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Claude Almansi Sent: Wednesday, 20 October 2004 3:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; The Digital Divide Network discussion group; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [DDN] "A picture is worth a thousand words!" "Yup, in kilobytes" Hi I wrote what follows in anger at an www.elearningeuropa.info forum called "The Role of the New Technologies in Cultural Dialogue" http://tinyurl.com/5m7ks , where all the initial posts insist on how important the use of images would be for multicultural exchanges, wondering at why so many sites are still textual, "refusing the multimedia revolution". The total absence of any mention of tech limitations to access angered me, and I wrote a post entitled <<"A picture is worth a thousand words!" "Yup, in kilobytes">> http://tinyurl.com/5qmaj : This subject line is from an actual exchange during the World Summit on Information Society http://www.itu.int/wsis/ in Geneva last December. With another participant, first met online through the "Information Society: Voices from the South" mailing list, we were joking about the Summit's official pages and PDFs, made huge by the addition of clumsily formatted logos and pics of personalities, offered by the organisers of WSIS with no regard for people with slow modem connections, web e-mails with scanty storage, forced to use antiquated computers in cybercafes. The most insensitive use of pictures was made by the Austrian organisers World Summit Awards http://www.wsis-award.org/ . At first, if you didn't have the shockwave pug-in, you just couldn't enter their site, because there was no alternative to their flash home page. They also produced a pdf for the nomination of experts for the award: enormous and locked. I asked them to produce a text version in several parts, as several people on the above mentioned mailing list were unable to download it, yet wanted to submit expert nominations for their countries. The organisers refused because they couldn't understand what it meant to have "non hi tech" internet access conditions. So I asked Andy Carvin, then working for the Benton foundation http://www.benton.org , if he could have a go. It worked. He got the separate texts forming the PDF from them and reposted them, separately and unlocked, at the Benton site. Americans are ahead of us in tech, but for them, it is just a tool, that must be adapted to the user's conditions. We Europeans all too often seem more enamoured of tech for tech's sake :-S Reading the erudite quotations about "Image language" provided by Pierre-Antoine Ullmo in this forum, I can't help wondering if their authors have ever been forced to use the internet in measly conditions, and what they actually know about bandwidth, hotlinking, storage, RAM capacity, CPU's, W3C accessibility rules... In About the Image http://www.elearningeuropa.info/forums.php?fPage=viewtopic&t=437&p1=1&p2 =1&p3=1&p4=1&lng=5 , Ullmo himself writes: Quote: "However the majority of applications on the web remain conventional, giving priority to the text and to a lineal and rigid reading mode. There is no real revolution of the writing process that accompanies the progress of new media." True, but only in part. Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page , probably the best online Encyclopedia, multilingual, made by users from different countries, makes abundant use of hypertext, inviting non-linear reading. The scant use of pictures is not due to conservatism, but aimed at insuring accessibility for all. The same consideration for less favorised users explains the austere look of most "GNU" sites. See http://www.fsf.org . As to websites made in poorer countries, there is another reason for this scant use of images: bandwidth theft. Hosting rates are calculated in function of the bandwidth used by a site. If a small association with little means can only afford a limited bandwidth, using images for its site means running the risk that someone will copy-paste them in another site: it unfortunately happens all the time, in particular in "usenet" sites
