Re: AST Macros?
Le 05/06/2012 23:20, Jacob Carlborg a écrit : On 2012-06-05 09:08, Don Clugston wrote: On 04/06/12 20:46, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2012-06-04 10:03, Don Clugston wrote: AST macros were discussed informally on the day after the conference, and it quickly became clear that the proposed ones were nowhere near powerful enough. Since that time nobody has come up with another proposal, as far as I know. I think others have suggested doing something similar like Nemerle, Scala or Nimrod. Yes but only in very vague terms -- not in any more words than that. When I look at the Nimrod docs, it basically seems to be nothing more than "expose the compiler internal data structures". Which is extremely easy to do but causes a heap of problems in the long term. Yes, no formal proposition has been made. I wanted to do one. I have may idea on the subject, but want to experiment with them. It is not as easy as it seems, and it is always harder to switch after release. This is why I ended up massively hacking SDC.
Re: AST Macros?
Le 05/06/2012 11:02, foobar a écrit : On Tuesday, 5 June 2012 at 07:08:19 UTC, Don Clugston wrote: On 04/06/12 20:46, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2012-06-04 10:03, Don Clugston wrote: AST macros were discussed informally on the day after the conference, and it quickly became clear that the proposed ones were nowhere near powerful enough. Since that time nobody has come up with another proposal, as far as I know. I think others have suggested doing something similar like Nemerle, Scala or Nimrod. Yes but only in very vague terms -- not in any more words than that. When I look at the Nimrod docs, it basically seems to be nothing more than "expose the compiler internal data structures". Which is extremely easy to do but causes a heap of problems in the long term. This argument was raised before. That "heap of problems" is as vague as the proposed AST system(s). As far as I can tell, that heap of problems is mainly about making it harder to make internal breaking changes since the compiler is no longer a black box. Now, I'd argue that having a stable API for those compiler internals in needed anyway. Besides the obvious benefits of a more modular design that better encapsulates the different layers of the compilation process, it allows us to implement a compiler as a set of libraries which benefits the tool ecosystem, IDEs, text-editors, lint tools, etc. Thools which could reuse subsets of these libraries (e.g. think of Clang's design and how it allowed for the vim auto-complete plugin). Even _without_ the AST macros I think it's a worthy goal to pursuit, AST macros simply make the outcome that much sweeter. Indeed. I'm working toward this goal.
Re: AST Macros?
On 2012-06-06 01:06, Paul D. Anderson wrote: Can we move this to a DIP? Sure, you are free to add a DIP, or someone else. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: AST Macros?
On Tuesday, 5 June 2012 at 21:20:43 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2012-06-05 11:02, foobar wrote: This argument was raised before. That "heap of problems" is as vague as the proposed AST system(s). As far as I can tell, that heap of problems is mainly about making it harder to make internal breaking changes since the compiler is no longer a black box. Now, I'd argue that having a stable API for those compiler internals in needed anyway. Besides the obvious benefits of a more modular design that better encapsulates the different layers of the compilation process, it allows us to implement a compiler as a set of libraries which benefits the tool ecosystem, IDEs, text-editors, lint tools, etc. Thools which could reuse subsets of these libraries (e.g. think of Clang's design and how it allowed for the vim auto-complete plugin). Even _without_ the AST macros I think it's a worthy goal to pursuit, AST macros simply make the outcome that much sweeter. I couldn't agree more. Can we move this to a DIP? Paul
Re: AST Macros?
On 2012-06-05 09:08, Don Clugston wrote: On 04/06/12 20:46, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2012-06-04 10:03, Don Clugston wrote: AST macros were discussed informally on the day after the conference, and it quickly became clear that the proposed ones were nowhere near powerful enough. Since that time nobody has come up with another proposal, as far as I know. I think others have suggested doing something similar like Nemerle, Scala or Nimrod. Yes but only in very vague terms -- not in any more words than that. When I look at the Nimrod docs, it basically seems to be nothing more than "expose the compiler internal data structures". Which is extremely easy to do but causes a heap of problems in the long term. Yes, no formal proposition has been made. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: AST Macros?
On 2012-06-05 11:02, foobar wrote: This argument was raised before. That "heap of problems" is as vague as the proposed AST system(s). As far as I can tell, that heap of problems is mainly about making it harder to make internal breaking changes since the compiler is no longer a black box. Now, I'd argue that having a stable API for those compiler internals in needed anyway. Besides the obvious benefits of a more modular design that better encapsulates the different layers of the compilation process, it allows us to implement a compiler as a set of libraries which benefits the tool ecosystem, IDEs, text-editors, lint tools, etc. Thools which could reuse subsets of these libraries (e.g. think of Clang's design and how it allowed for the vim auto-complete plugin). Even _without_ the AST macros I think it's a worthy goal to pursuit, AST macros simply make the outcome that much sweeter. I couldn't agree more. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: AST Macros?
On Tuesday, 5 June 2012 at 07:08:19 UTC, Don Clugston wrote: On 04/06/12 20:46, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2012-06-04 10:03, Don Clugston wrote: AST macros were discussed informally on the day after the conference, and it quickly became clear that the proposed ones were nowhere near powerful enough. Since that time nobody has come up with another proposal, as far as I know. I think others have suggested doing something similar like Nemerle, Scala or Nimrod. Yes but only in very vague terms -- not in any more words than that. When I look at the Nimrod docs, it basically seems to be nothing more than "expose the compiler internal data structures". Which is extremely easy to do but causes a heap of problems in the long term. This argument was raised before. That "heap of problems" is as vague as the proposed AST system(s). As far as I can tell, that heap of problems is mainly about making it harder to make internal breaking changes since the compiler is no longer a black box. Now, I'd argue that having a stable API for those compiler internals in needed anyway. Besides the obvious benefits of a more modular design that better encapsulates the different layers of the compilation process, it allows us to implement a compiler as a set of libraries which benefits the tool ecosystem, IDEs, text-editors, lint tools, etc. Thools which could reuse subsets of these libraries (e.g. think of Clang's design and how it allowed for the vim auto-complete plugin). Even _without_ the AST macros I think it's a worthy goal to pursuit, AST macros simply make the outcome that much sweeter.
Re: AST Macros?
On 04/06/12 20:46, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2012-06-04 10:03, Don Clugston wrote: AST macros were discussed informally on the day after the conference, and it quickly became clear that the proposed ones were nowhere near powerful enough. Since that time nobody has come up with another proposal, as far as I know. I think others have suggested doing something similar like Nemerle, Scala or Nimrod. Yes but only in very vague terms -- not in any more words than that. When I look at the Nimrod docs, it basically seems to be nothing more than "expose the compiler internal data structures". Which is extremely easy to do but causes a heap of problems in the long term.
Re: AST Macros?
On 2012-06-04 10:03, Don Clugston wrote: AST macros were discussed informally on the day after the conference, and it quickly became clear that the proposed ones were nowhere near powerful enough. Since that time nobody has come up with another proposal, as far as I know. I think others have suggested doing something similar like Nemerle, Scala or Nimrod. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: AST Macros?
Le 01/06/2012 21:37, Jacob Carlborg a écrit : On 2012-06-01 17:47, Gor Gyolchanyan wrote: Where can I read more about Bartosz's race-free type system and if there are some specific ideas already, AST macros for D as well? AST macros have been mentioned in the newsgroups several times. There was a talk at the first D conference mentioning AST macros. This was before D2. http://d.puremagic.com/conference2007/speakers.html It's the talk by Walter Bright and Andrei Alexandrescu. It's probably in the second part. I have seen the presentation's slides a long time ago, but didn't knew it was recorded on video ! Thank you very much !
Re: AST Macros?
On 01/06/12 21:37, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2012-06-01 17:47, Gor Gyolchanyan wrote: Where can I read more about Bartosz's race-free type system and if there are some specific ideas already, AST macros for D as well? AST macros have been mentioned in the newsgroups several times. There was a talk at the first D conference mentioning AST macros. This was before D2. http://d.puremagic.com/conference2007/speakers.html It's the talk by Walter Bright and Andrei Alexandrescu. It's probably in the second part. AST macros were discussed informally on the day after the conference, and it quickly became clear that the proposed ones were nowhere near powerful enough. Since that time nobody has come up with another proposal, as far as I know.
Re: AST Macros?
On Friday, 1 June 2012 at 15:38:44 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Friday, June 01, 2012 17:57:51 d coder wrote: Greetings I know there is a plan for D to have AST macros eventually. I wanted to know if it is a feature being worked upon at this point of time. Approximately how long it would be before AST Macros see the light of the day in D? I know D is an opensource project and I am not trying to put any pressure here. I am just curious because I think D is a great language for creating DSL's and having AST Macros will make a big difference. There was talk of doing AST macros quite while back, but it was decided not to add them to D2. They may or may not ever be revisited. This page isn't necessarily completely up-to-date ( http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?LanguageDevel ), but it specifically lists 2 things as deferred to D3.0: * AST macros. * Bartosz Milewski's race-free type system. String mixins should be powerful enough in most, if not all, cases. It's been shown that it's quite possible to create DSLs as strings with whatever syntax you want and have them compiled to D code (Philippe Segaud put together a really cool library for generating PEGs: https://github.com/PhilippeSigaud/Pegged/wiki ). We _may_ see AST macros added to the language in the distant future, but it's not happening anytime soon. - Jonathan M Davis If you're interested in AST macros take a look at Nimrod (http://nimrod-code.org) its got AST macros.
Re: AST Macros?
On 06/01/12 17:47, Gor Gyolchanyan wrote: > Where can I read more about Bartosz's race-free type system and if there > are some specific ideas already, AST macros for D as well? > > -- > Bye, > Gor Gyolchanyan. You can check this YouTube's playlist of the last D's convention (2009) http://www.youtube.com/user/braddr1 Bartosz's talks about "Software Transactional Memory in D" http://youtu.be/2P3OUuBEBNc
Re: AST Macros?
On 2012-06-01 17:47, Gor Gyolchanyan wrote: Where can I read more about Bartosz's race-free type system and if there are some specific ideas already, AST macros for D as well? AST macros have been mentioned in the newsgroups several times. There was a talk at the first D conference mentioning AST macros. This was before D2. http://d.puremagic.com/conference2007/speakers.html It's the talk by Walter Bright and Andrei Alexandrescu. It's probably in the second part. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: AST Macros?
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Philippe Sigaud wrote: > On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 6:49 PM, Jonathan M Davis > wrote: > > On Friday, June 01, 2012 19:47:47 Gor Gyolchanyan wrote: > >> Where can I read more about Bartosz's race-free type system and if there > >> are some specific ideas already, AST macros for D as well? > > > > I'm sure that there's some discussion on them in the newsgroup archives, > but > > it may be 5 years back; I don't know. You'll have to search the > archives. I'm > > not aware of any other discussions of them being online anywhere. > > Discussion here, no indeed. But Bartosz had a bunch of blog posts that > explained his ideas. > > It begins there: > > http://bartoszmilewski.com/2009/03/23/types-for-concurrency/ > > And then for some months. > Thanks! -- Bye, Gor Gyolchanyan.
Re: AST Macros?
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 6:49 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: > On Friday, June 01, 2012 19:47:47 Gor Gyolchanyan wrote: >> Where can I read more about Bartosz's race-free type system and if there >> are some specific ideas already, AST macros for D as well? > > I'm sure that there's some discussion on them in the newsgroup archives, but > it may be 5 years back; I don't know. You'll have to search the archives. I'm > not aware of any other discussions of them being online anywhere. Discussion here, no indeed. But Bartosz had a bunch of blog posts that explained his ideas. It begins there: http://bartoszmilewski.com/2009/03/23/types-for-concurrency/ And then for some months.
Re: AST Macros?
On Friday, June 01, 2012 19:47:47 Gor Gyolchanyan wrote: > Where can I read more about Bartosz's race-free type system and if there > are some specific ideas already, AST macros for D as well? I'm sure that there's some discussion on them in the newsgroup archives, but it may be 5 years back; I don't know. You'll have to search the archives. I'm not aware of any other discussions of them being online anywhere. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: AST Macros?
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 7:38 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: > On Friday, June 01, 2012 17:57:51 d coder wrote: > > Greetings > > > > I know there is a plan for D to have AST macros eventually. I wanted to > > know if it is a feature being worked upon at this point of time. > > Approximately how long it would be before AST Macros see the light of the > > day in D? > > > > I know D is an opensource project and I am not trying to put any pressure > > here. I am just curious because I think D is a great language for > creating > > DSL's and having AST Macros will make a big difference. > > There was talk of doing AST macros quite while back, but it was decided > not to > add them to D2. They may or may not ever be revisited. This page isn't > necessarily completely up-to-date ( > http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?LanguageDevel ), but it specifically > lists 2 > things as deferred to D3.0: > > * AST macros. > * Bartosz Milewski's race-free type system. > > String mixins should be powerful enough in most, if not all, cases. It's > been > shown that it's quite possible to create DSLs as strings with whatever > syntax > you want and have them compiled to D code (Philippe Segaud put together a > really cool library for generating PEGs: > https://github.com/PhilippeSigaud/Pegged/wiki ). > > We _may_ see AST macros added to the language in the distant future, but > it's > not happening anytime soon. > > - Jonathan M Davis > Where can I read more about Bartosz's race-free type system and if there are some specific ideas already, AST macros for D as well? -- Bye, Gor Gyolchanyan.
Re: AST Macros?
On Friday, June 01, 2012 17:57:51 d coder wrote: > Greetings > > I know there is a plan for D to have AST macros eventually. I wanted to > know if it is a feature being worked upon at this point of time. > Approximately how long it would be before AST Macros see the light of the > day in D? > > I know D is an opensource project and I am not trying to put any pressure > here. I am just curious because I think D is a great language for creating > DSL's and having AST Macros will make a big difference. There was talk of doing AST macros quite while back, but it was decided not to add them to D2. They may or may not ever be revisited. This page isn't necessarily completely up-to-date ( http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?LanguageDevel ), but it specifically lists 2 things as deferred to D3.0: * AST macros. * Bartosz Milewski's race-free type system. String mixins should be powerful enough in most, if not all, cases. It's been shown that it's quite possible to create DSLs as strings with whatever syntax you want and have them compiled to D code (Philippe Segaud put together a really cool library for generating PEGs: https://github.com/PhilippeSigaud/Pegged/wiki ). We _may_ see AST macros added to the language in the distant future, but it's not happening anytime soon. - Jonathan M Davis
