Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On 3/9/2013 10:34 AM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Anyone can subscribe: Dang! The secret is out!
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
Andrej Mitrovic, el 9 de March a las 18:13 me escribiste: > On 3/7/13, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: > > I'm happy to announce we have four new committers to our project on > > github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers. > > Can we get added to the dmd-internals group? My emails always get > bounced and I have to wait for someone to approve them. Anyone can subscribe: http://lists.puremagic.com/mailman/listinfo/dmd-internals -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ -- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) -- Me encanta el éxito; por eso prefiero el estado de progreso constante, con la meta al frente y no atrás. -- Ricardo Vaporeso. Punta del Este, Enero de 1918.
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On 3/9/2013 9:13 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: > On 3/7/13, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: >> I'm happy to announce we have four new committers to our project on >> github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers. > > Can we get added to the dmd-internals group? My emails always get > bounced and I have to wait for someone to approve them. > You just need to subscribe to the mailing list. http://lists.puremagic.com/
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On 3/7/13, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: > I'm happy to announce we have four new committers to our project on > github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers. Can we get added to the dmd-internals group? My emails always get bounced and I have to wait for someone to approve them.
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On Friday, 8 March 2013 at 17:09:28 UTC, Dmitry Olshansky wrote: 08-Mar-2013 20:19, Andrei Alexandrescu пишет: On 3/8/13 10:53 AM, Dmitry Olshansky wrote: I think the skepticism is misplaced. Feel free to experiment with it. AFAIK I can't if we are speaking of dmd/druntime/phobos/etc ... You could send a pull request to the branch for the submitter's pull request ;)
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On Friday, 8 March 2013 at 19:17:33 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 3/8/2013 7:31 AM, Dmitry Olshansky wrote: c) Committer already spent as much (if not more) time by looking through the pull. Doing a trivial cleanup after that should be a semi-automated five minute job. It doesn't scale to have the committers be expected to fix up the pull requests. I don't think it should be expected, but in many cases you're talking an extra 60 seconds work from a committer vs many days in turnaround time.
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On 3/8/2013 7:31 AM, Dmitry Olshansky wrote: c) Committer already spent as much (if not more) time by looking through the pull. Doing a trivial cleanup after that should be a semi-automated five minute job. It doesn't scale to have the committers be expected to fix up the pull requests.
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On 3/8/2013 1:49 AM, Iain Buclaw wrote: With a status of "His Honor the GNU D Compiler Guru" :o) Yes, your Worship!
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
08-Mar-2013 20:19, Andrei Alexandrescu пишет: On 3/8/13 10:53 AM, Dmitry Olshansky wrote: I think the skepticism is misplaced. Feel free to experiment with it. AFAIK I can't if we are speaking of dmd/druntime/phobos/etc ... The problem with this approach is people will post increasingly sloppy code on the account that reviewers must fix it. I'm glad we're well past the point where people shove essentially unfinished work with the subtext "well here's as far as I got, feel free to take it over from here". At the level of professionalism and commitment necessary for contributing to D, I don't think asking for crisp diffs is much of a drag. I won't reply to this any further. As long as it's just a hypothesis, arguments pro and con may go on forever. Again, experiment with it; if successful, then we can adopt it. At the moment I could just suggest for others to try which I did. I guess time will tell if it's viable or not. [snip] -- Dmitry Olshansky
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On 3/8/13 10:53 AM, Dmitry Olshansky wrote: I think the skepticism is misplaced. Feel free to experiment with it. The problem with this approach is people will post increasingly sloppy code on the account that reviewers must fix it. I'm glad we're well past the point where people shove essentially unfinished work with the subtext "well here's as far as I got, feel free to take it over from here". At the level of professionalism and commitment necessary for contributing to D, I don't think asking for crisp diffs is much of a drag. I won't reply to this any further. As long as it's just a hypothesis, arguments pro and con may go on forever. Again, experiment with it; if successful, then we can adopt it. BTW ironically only today I've done such a thing: https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/d-programming-language.org/pull/297. The change was minor; but by doing that systematically we create precedent for less parallelization of work and more work for bottleneck contributors. Andrei
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
08-Mar-2013 16:58, Andrei Alexandrescu пишет: On 3/8/13 3:33 AM, Dmitry Olshansky wrote: There is got to be more effective process to merge stuff. Current situation involves ping-pong between commiter/reviewer and contributor on every minor nit there is. That basically involves reviewing the same exact code few times over as cleanup arrives some days later. And even when contributor think he did cleanup something, he/she may as well miss what's the deal and the cycle repeats. Instead it's definitely possible for committer to checkout the pull, do an extra cleanup commit (with automatic tool possibly, like detab/toln and I'd love to see official "indent" for D) and push it to the main repo. (Or squash the commits. This doesn't cancel out reviewing anything non-trivial by at least 2 persons.) We could experiment with this, but I'm skeptical. At Facebook we have that option (called "commandeering" a revision) but it's very rarely used. I think the skepticism is misplaced. Of course, inside of any large organization there is generally some coding culture (style guide, strict rules etc.) that one may expect to be followed. Recalling your comment on e.g. 80-colum as a hard limit enforced by the commit hook and such, I understand that at Facebook you don't even have to see these minor flaws at all. The above is not the case in the highly scattered D community. Above all the person you nag about a misplaced whitespace of something like that most definitely could have completely different timezone. Even worse he/she may have a couple of deadlines to meet, be traveling over sea, has a sick dog to treat or whatever other urgent things to attend to. Even under normal conditions I expect no less then 8 hours for a random comment to penetrate. One issue that I do think is holding us back is the diff viewer. Phabricator has a great one (side by side, not interleaved), and it would be great if we could have the same. One possibility would be to integrate smoothly with meld. Having a better tool then Github's online diff would be nice if that said tool could be integrated somewhere close to github's pull view. Just like say pull tester is. Otherwise setting up a script on a local machine that grabs few latest pulls and then cycles through them with git difftool would work. And meld works with git. -- Dmitry Olshansky
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
08-Mar-2013 18:32, Leandro Lucarella пишет: Dmitry Olshansky, el 8 de March a las 12:33 me escribiste: There is got to be more effective process to merge stuff. Current situation involves ping-pong between commiter/reviewer and contributor on every minor nit there is. That basically involves reviewing the same exact code few times over as cleanup arrives some days later. And even when contributor think he did cleanup something, he/she may as well miss what's the deal and the cycle repeats. Instead it's definitely possible for committer to checkout the pull, do an extra cleanup commit (with automatic tool possibly, like detab/toln and I'd love to see official "indent" for D) and push it to the main repo. (Or squash the commits. This doesn't cancel out reviewing anything non-trivial by at least 2 persons.) I think this is the wrong approach. People need to learn how to do a proper pull request, you can't get the committers doing cleaning work after contributors. Is a learning process, once you get it right, your pull requests shouldn't too many cycles to get accepted. I would have agreed if it were not for these things: a) The learning process is an evolution of knowledge, thus you've got to be nice to newbies. This means trying to not overwhelm them with minor details, fascist style requirements and whatnot on the first pulls. (+ learn by example - show the commit that cleans things up and insist on following conventions etc. next time around) b) The time the pull takes to be accepted is no less then one month unless it gets pulled in during the first few days. Typical RTT between committer-contributor of up to one-two week(s). c) Committer already spent as much (if not more) time by looking through the pull. Doing a trivial cleanup after that should be a semi-automated five minute job. -- Dmitry Olshansky
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
Dmitry Olshansky, el 8 de March a las 12:33 me escribiste: > There is got to be more effective process to merge stuff. Current > situation involves ping-pong between commiter/reviewer and > contributor on every minor nit there is. That basically involves > reviewing the same exact code few times over as cleanup arrives some > days later. And even when contributor think he did cleanup > something, he/she may as well miss what's the deal and the cycle > repeats. > > Instead it's definitely possible for committer to checkout the pull, > do an extra cleanup commit (with automatic tool possibly, like > detab/toln and I'd love to see official "indent" for D) and push it > to the main repo. (Or squash the commits. This doesn't cancel out > reviewing anything non-trivial by at least 2 persons.) I think this is the wrong approach. People need to learn how to do a proper pull request, you can't get the committers doing cleaning work after contributors. Is a learning process, once you get it right, your pull requests shouldn't too many cycles to get accepted. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ -- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) -- Algún día los libros desterrarán a la radio y el hombre descubrirá el oculto poder del Amargo Serrano. -- Ricardo Vaporeso. El Bolsón, 1909.
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On Friday, 8 March 2013 at 12:58:56 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 3/8/13 3:33 AM, Dmitry Olshansky wrote: There is got to be more effective process to merge stuff. Current situation involves ping-pong between commiter/reviewer and contributor on every minor nit there is. That basically involves reviewing the same exact code few times over as cleanup arrives some days later. And even when contributor think he did cleanup something, he/she may as well miss what's the deal and the cycle repeats. Instead it's definitely possible for committer to checkout the pull, do an extra cleanup commit (with automatic tool possibly, like detab/toln and I'd love to see official "indent" for D) and push it to the main repo. (Or squash the commits. This doesn't cancel out reviewing anything non-trivial by at least 2 persons.) We could experiment with this, but I'm skeptical. At Facebook we have that option (called "commandeering" a revision) but it's very rarely used. One issue that I do think is holding us back is the diff viewer. Phabricator has a great one (side by side, not interleaved), and it would be great if we could have the same. One possibility would be to integrate smoothly with meld. Andrei git difftool?
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On 3/8/13 3:33 AM, Dmitry Olshansky wrote: There is got to be more effective process to merge stuff. Current situation involves ping-pong between commiter/reviewer and contributor on every minor nit there is. That basically involves reviewing the same exact code few times over as cleanup arrives some days later. And even when contributor think he did cleanup something, he/she may as well miss what's the deal and the cycle repeats. Instead it's definitely possible for committer to checkout the pull, do an extra cleanup commit (with automatic tool possibly, like detab/toln and I'd love to see official "indent" for D) and push it to the main repo. (Or squash the commits. This doesn't cancel out reviewing anything non-trivial by at least 2 persons.) We could experiment with this, but I'm skeptical. At Facebook we have that option (called "commandeering" a revision) but it's very rarely used. One issue that I do think is holding us back is the diff viewer. Phabricator has a great one (side by side, not interleaved), and it would be great if we could have the same. One possibility would be to integrate smoothly with meld. Andrei
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On 8 March 2013 03:27, Walter Bright wrote: > On 3/7/2013 3:55 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: > >> Is nice to see the 2 main contributors of the 2 other compiler >> implementations with some official status! >> > > It's hard to think of someone having better credentials! > > With a status of "His Honor the GNU D Compiler Guru" :o) -- Iain Buclaw *(p < e ? p++ : p) = (c & 0x0f) + '0';
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
08-Mar-2013 00:55, Andrei Alexandrescu пишет: Hello everyone, I'm happy to announce we have four new committers to our project on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers. Congrats guys! Lots of cool things are happening nowadays in D, what with DConf gearing up, the rise of private and corporate use, and the swelling of contributions. Yet we should see those as mere stepping stones toward much bigger destinations. Short term, we need to improve process to the point where we can successfully "drain" contributions from the community, and scale up organizationally so we could absorb 10x and 100x more. There are 158 pull requests for all components combined (http://goo.gl/0Ar7b), most or all written by highly talented and motivated people. It is key to improve our ability to absorb these contributions and attract more of such. There is got to be more effective process to merge stuff. Current situation involves ping-pong between commiter/reviewer and contributor on every minor nit there is. That basically involves reviewing the same exact code few times over as cleanup arrives some days later. And even when contributor think he did cleanup something, he/she may as well miss what's the deal and the cycle repeats. Instead it's definitely possible for committer to checkout the pull, do an extra cleanup commit (with automatic tool possibly, like detab/toln and I'd love to see official "indent" for D) and push it to the main repo. (Or squash the commits. This doesn't cancel out reviewing anything non-trivial by at least 2 persons.) That's in the short term. On a longer horizon, we are now at a point where many programmers have heard of D, and fortunately past the entire "what's the deal with tango and phobos" morass. The strategic item to work on now is to improve the quality of the language definition and the implementation of the reference front-end. The word on the street is that D is okay for the straight stuff, but fuzzy at the corners if you get into the esoteric. And we won't make it big for being as good as the "straight stuff" as anyone else (though that's a precondition), but by consistently showing that the differential features of D are delivering big time. So quality is the keyword to live by. And I think by adding four high-octane committers to the team we're taking a step in the right direction. Please join me in congratulating them! Thanks, Andrei -- Dmitry Olshansky
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On 2013-03-07 21:55, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I'm happy to announce we have four new committers to our project on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers. This is great. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On 3/7/2013 3:55 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Is nice to see the 2 main contributors of the 2 other compiler implementations with some official status! It's hard to think of someone having better credentials!
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
Andrei Alexandrescu, el 7 de March a las 15:55 me escribiste: > Hello everyone, > > I'm happy to announce we have four new committers to our project on > github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers. Is nice to see the 2 main contributors of the 2 other compiler implementations with some official status! -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ -- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) -- Oiganmen ñatos de corazón, es más posible que un potus florezca en primavera a que un ángel pase con una remera. -- Peperino Pómoro
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On Thursday, 7 March 2013 at 22:26:23 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 3/7/2013 1:23 PM, David Nadlinger wrote: …and in case you are now wondering who the one with the strange nick name is, that's me. I would prefer it if you changed your nick so (at least I) can remember who is who :-) I guess it counts as grandfathered in by now, the account exists since 2008. ;) David
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On 3/7/13, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: > Anyway it's getting exciting, the D Team is growing fast. Also some fun (if maybe not 100% accurate) statistics here: http://www.ohloh.net/p/dmd/factoids See the bottom of the page for various factoids. Apparently we're in the top 2% of teams by some statistic.
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On 3/7/2013 1:23 PM, David Nadlinger wrote: On Thursday, 7 March 2013 at 20:55:57 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I'm happy to announce we have four new committers to our project on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers. …and in case you are now wondering who the one with the strange nick name is, that's me. I would prefer it if you changed your nick so (at least I) can remember who is who :-) Looking forward to helping out with giving the numerous high-quality contributions currently in the queue the amount of attention they deserve! +1
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On 3/7/13, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: > Hello everyone, > > > I'm happy to announce we have four new committers to our project on > github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers. Excellent! Thanks for adding me and the other active committers to the crew. P.S. apparently we have to click the "publicize membership" button to appear on the team lists: https://github.com/D-Programming-Language?tab=members Anyway it's getting exciting, the D Team is growing fast.
Re: Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
On Thursday, 7 March 2013 at 20:55:57 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I'm happy to announce we have four new committers to our project on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers. …and in case you are now wondering who the one with the strange nick name is, that's me. Looking forward to helping out with giving the numerous high-quality contributions currently in the queue the amount of attention they deserve! David
Four new committers on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers
Hello everyone, I'm happy to announce we have four new committers to our project on github: AndrejMitrovic, ibuclaw, klickverbot, and rainers. Lots of cool things are happening nowadays in D, what with DConf gearing up, the rise of private and corporate use, and the swelling of contributions. Yet we should see those as mere stepping stones toward much bigger destinations. Short term, we need to improve process to the point where we can successfully "drain" contributions from the community, and scale up organizationally so we could absorb 10x and 100x more. There are 158 pull requests for all components combined (http://goo.gl/0Ar7b), most or all written by highly talented and motivated people. It is key to improve our ability to absorb these contributions and attract more of such. That's in the short term. On a longer horizon, we are now at a point where many programmers have heard of D, and fortunately past the entire "what's the deal with tango and phobos" morass. The strategic item to work on now is to improve the quality of the language definition and the implementation of the reference front-end. The word on the street is that D is okay for the straight stuff, but fuzzy at the corners if you get into the esoteric. And we won't make it big for being as good as the "straight stuff" as anyone else (though that's a precondition), but by consistently showing that the differential features of D are delivering big time. So quality is the keyword to live by. And I think by adding four high-octane committers to the team we're taking a step in the right direction. Please join me in congratulating them! Thanks, Andrei
