[digitalradio] Digital modes in emergency communication (was Field Day and PSK31 )
John, It is precisely the DHS/FEMA shambles in New Orleans that causes my concern. Part (I say PART) of the problems there were caused by the psuedo-military structure and incident command concepts that were deployed. Adopting a incident command structure establishes order to a process but often stifles flexibility and improvisation that may be needed. This, applied to amateur radio, overly complicates a system . I have not been to Oz in a while , so can't speak for your system. Here in the USA the culture is very much hard-hat wearing hams fulfilling a role that is overly dramatized . I am involved in emergency preparedness both professionally and via RACES and know the structures well. I am often involved in drills (just finished a THREE week drill) assigned as a liaison to amateur radio operators. The recent three week drill involved deployment of 4 RACES cells . Each of the cells could not figure out how to activate their digital communications systems and resorted to plain old use of a 2M FM repeater system. Keeping this thread digital related, my main point is that the USA system has developed a very good method for transmission of urgent information. However, the use of Pactor and PACKET has added an layer that complicates simple emergency communications. As my recent Field Day demo illustrated, the majority of hams have NO CLUE on how to set up digital modes for use with amateur radio, even for a non-emergency digital rag-chew. And, as a ham involved in a recent drill told me, I am at least experienced in some digital modes but still had difficulty remembering Flex-Net and Winlink processes. Can you imagine what it would have been like in a real scenario where the hams that turned up were hams with no knowledge of anything other than using a repeater. While their ability to use a simple repeater system may have been all the skills they needed, the drill organizers had deliberately established packet radio as the method for liaison between government officials and RACES. I wonder how many hams actually USE digital modes? I am going to guess that is or probably no more than 15 percent of licensed hams. I think WINLINK and other such systems work wonderfully well, but think the backbone of an emergency communication system should be based on the skills and capabilities of the average ham, not the specialist ham. On 6/30/06, John Bradley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What the DHS has asked makes no difference to us. Rather than a secondary comms role, we have a primary comms role, albeit to support secondary services such as public works etc etc when the primary systems become overloaded. This is not theory, this is how we train regularly with the communities emergency services. The only time that we are first responders is a local situtation where a number of us have cross trained as Search and rescue team members, and, as such are first responders. Frankly , it really pisses me off when someone such as Andy runs down the efforts of hams who are involved with the community emergency response as people who have an obscure obsession with being some type of emergency responder. It beat the heck out of the response that hams such as you have, sitting on your soapboxes , with the sole purpose of criticizing others. Like anything else, this acceptance into the emergency role we play as communicators requires more work than showing up with your flip flops and a handheld when the do-do hits the fan. we are communications volunteers, and are equally adept at using someone else's system as our own ham gear. No where does it say that we are limited to ham operations, and often we are not. As an outsider, and witnessing the shambles that DHS/FEMA had for a response for the hurricanes last year, maybe it's time for the ham community to start thinking outside the box and making those contacts with the local emergency services. This is the way have in returning something to the community I live in, I'm proud of what our ARES and SAR teams have done, it beats the heck outta what I could do in the Lion's club or Rotary, and is far more rewarding. Have you done any work with emergency services , Andy, or is this latest diatribe simply more BS? John VE5MU - Original Message - From: Andrew O'Brien To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com digitalradio%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 8:39 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Field Day and PSK31 There are varying versions of just what emergency communications are all about. To some it is the boat sinking SOS but to others it is a complex system of message handling with file attachments, etc There are a considerable amounts of well intended hams that have an obscure obsession with playing Firefighter ,Police Officer, EMT, FEMA worker , etc etc. This manifests itself with hams wearing hardhats and using military lingo for traffic handling, much like kids playing cowboys and Indians
[digitalradio] How much power do you run?
As I mentioned in a previous post (For which I was adequately chastised off-group) I am interested in utilizing the new digital modes. I am interested in a new TenTec rig. Is the 20 watt Argonaut 516 adequate or would the Jupiter be a better choice? The Orion is not in my 'blue-collar budget'. Anyone with TenTec digital experience around? Thanks! 73 DE W1YB Johnne Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Check out the new improvements in Yahoo! Groups email. http://us.click.yahoo.com/6pRQfA/fOaOAA/yQLSAA/ELTolB/TM ~- Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to Telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Other areas of interest: The MixW Reflector : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup/ DigiPol: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Digipol (band plan policy discussion) Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [digitalradio] How much power do you run?
In my opinion the Argonaut would not be adequate. You can run up to 40 watts without adding a blower with the Jupiter so you have greater flexibility of operating RF powers. I have run mine on PSK31 continually up to 40 watts with no problem. Ten-Tec provides a quiet fan that installs to the heat sink on both the Jupiter and Orion should you chose to run 100 watts AFSK which I use with my Orion. The fan they provide as an accessory for the Argonaut is noisy but it's required for full power output of 20 watts, otherwise you can run only 10 watts or so. I would purchase the Jupiter with the antenna tuner installed. Argonaut doesn't have a built in antenna tunner. Argonaut, Jupiter and Orion come with an accessory cable for convenient digital mode hook up. You would still need an interface. I use a Donner interface made especially for Ten-Tec rigs but have also used RigBlaster Plus. See their respective web sites for more information. Charles, K0CW Johnne Ables [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As I mentioned in a previous post (For which I was adequately chastised off-group) I am interested in utilizing the new digital modes. I am interested in a new TenTec rig. Is the 20 watt Argonaut 516 adequate or would the Jupiter be a better choice? The Orion is not in my 'blue-collar budget'. Anyone with TenTec digital experience around? Thanks! 73 DE W1YB Johnne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/XISQkA/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/ELTolB/TM ~- Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to Telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Other areas of interest: The MixW Reflector : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup/ DigiPol: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Digipol (band plan policy discussion) Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[digitalradio] Re: How much power do you run?
Thanks greatly, Charles! I guess I'd better call and order me a Jupiter. I have a Palstar manual transmatch that should suffice. I'll check out the Donner gear, as well! Do you have experience with 'SkySeeper'?; it faired quite well in an QST comparison. Thanks again! 73 DE W1YB Johnne --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Chas Nagel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my opinion the Argonaut would not be adequate. You can run up to 40 watts without adding a blower with the Jupiter so you have greater flexibility of operating RF powers. I have run mine on PSK31 continually up to 40 watts with no problem. Ten-Tec provides a quiet fan that installs to the heat sink on both the Jupiter and Orion should you chose to run 100 watts AFSK which I use with my Orion. The fan they provide as an accessory for the Argonaut is noisy but it's required for full power output of 20 watts, otherwise you can run only 10 watts or so. I would purchase the Jupiter with the antenna tuner installed. Argonaut doesn't have a built in antenna tunner. Argonaut, Jupiter and Orion come with an accessory cable for convenient digital mode hook up. You would still need an interface. I use a Donner interface made especially for Ten-Tec rigs but have also used RigBlaster Plus. See their respective web sites for more information. Charles, K0CW Johnne Ables [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As I mentioned in a previous post (For which I was adequately chastised off-group) I am interested in utilizing the new digital modes. I am interested in a new TenTec rig. Is the 20 watt Argonaut 516 adequate or would the Jupiter be a better choice? The Orion is not in my 'blue-collar budget'. Anyone with TenTec digital experience around? Thanks! 73 DE W1YB Johnne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Something is new at Yahoo! Groups. Check out the enhanced email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/SISQkA/gOaOAA/yQLSAA/ELTolB/TM ~- Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to Telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Other areas of interest: The MixW Reflector : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup/ DigiPol: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Digipol (band plan policy discussion) Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[digitalradio] Re: How much power do you run?
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Johnne Ables [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As I mentioned in a previous post (For which I was adequately chastised off-group) I am interested in utilizing the new digital modes. I am interested in a new TenTec rig. Is the 20 watt Argonaut 516 adequate or would the Jupiter be a better choice? The Orion is not in my 'blue-collar budget'. It depends on your definition of adequate. Will you make digital contacts with 20W? Sure, lots of them. Perhaps not so much DX as someone running 40W or 50W, especially at this point in the sunspot cycle, but 20W will work perfectly well. I usually run 30W from my TS-480SAT, and am perfectly happy with the results. The more pertinent question is - can you actually run 20W from the 516 in a 100% duty cycle digital mode? Many rigs are rated at their full output power only on modes with much lower duty cycles, like SSB. For digital modes, you may have to de-rate the maximum power by half or three-quarters, if you don't want to risk thermal shutdown, or worse. - Rich Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Great things are happening at Yahoo! Groups. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/TISQkA/hOaOAA/yQLSAA/ELTolB/TM ~- Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to Telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Other areas of interest: The MixW Reflector : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup/ DigiPol: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Digipol (band plan policy discussion) Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [digitalradio] How much power do you run?
Johnne: The Argonaut should be fine for PSK31. I used the ArgoV for a little while. For some of the other digital modes, more power might be nice to have on hand. I have a buddy that uses his Jupiter daily on PSK31. It looks great on the waterfall from this end. In my opinion, the Argo V and Jupiter are close to the same rig but the extra power makes the Jupiter that much more versatile. 73, Kevin - K4VD On 6/30/06, Johnne Ables [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As I mentioned in a previous post (For which I was adequately chastised off-group) I am interested in utilizing the new digital modes. I am interested in a new TenTec rig. Is the 20 watt Argonaut 516 adequate or would the Jupiter be a better choice? The Orion is not in my 'blue-collar budget'. Anyone with TenTec digital experience around? Thanks! 73 DE W1YB Johnne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- See what's inside the new Yahoo! Groups email. http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/ELTolB/TM ~- Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to Telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Other areas of interest: The MixW Reflector : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup/ DigiPol: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Digipol (band plan policy discussion) Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [digitalradio] Re: Field Day and PSK31
Andy, We are in violent agreement. I've been trying to get this across for years. This is not to say that there have not been cases where amateur radio operators using their amateur radio equipment have sent true emergency communications; nor, will it not happen again. However, the vast majority of communications that amateur radio operators send is just as you have described. Again, there are and will be situations where amateur radio operators will be asked and need to send emergency communications. Within the year I have noted this in the fires in the West, flooding in the East and in some instances during hurricane Katrina. I know of a train derailment where the responding fire department's units could not reach their dispatcher but an amateur radio repeater with autopatch capability could. But these are the rather rare exceptions. And I don't believe that in any of the above record traffic was utilized. Only voice (tactical) communications. 73, Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 9:40 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Field Day and PSK31 There are varying versions of just what emergency communications are all about. To some it is the boat sinking SOS but to others it is a complex system of message handling with file attachments, etc There are a considerable amounts of well intended hams that have an obscure obsession with playing Firefighter ,Police Officer, EMT, FEMA worker , etc etc. This manifests itself with hams wearing hardhats and using military lingo for traffic handling, much like kids playing cowboys and Indians decades ago.They have developed very effective software that provides important communications but it is buried within layers of unnecessary terminology designed to make it fit their fantasy of being a legit first responder. The result is confusion among hams that don't quite get the unnecessary jargon, and dismissive criticism of these hams by the jargon camouflaged emcomm hams . The desire to be important emergency communicators has produced a system often used as a primary emergency communication system , however DHS asked only for a system that was secondary or redundant communications. These are unnecessarily complex system to join and, as a result , will likely have limited efficiency when (if?) ship sinking plane crashed scenarios present themselves. The PACTOR/Packet system will be useful for non-emergency situations, by that I mean urgent but not emergency. For example: Logistical information to support emergency efforts, supplies/hazardous materials instructions, requests for push-packs, etc. On 6/29/06, ke7iej [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- To sum up: Get on the mike and start hollering. SSB voice will be much more likely to be heard and replied to, in my opinion. This could change in the future but for now, that's how I see it. well in a emergency use any means that works and that will be noticed the best! ;P -- Andy K3UK Fredonia, New York. Skype Me : callto://andyobrien73 Also available via Echolink [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to Telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Other areas of interest: The MixW Reflector : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup/ DigiPol: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Digipol (band plan policy discussion) Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Something is new at Yahoo! Groups. Check out the enhanced email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/SISQkA/gOaOAA/yQLSAA/ELTolB/TM ~- Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to Telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Other areas of interest: The MixW Reflector : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup/ DigiPol: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Digipol (band plan policy discussion) Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[digitalradio] Re: Digital modes in emergency communication (was Field Day and PSK31 )
Andrew, You bring up some interesting points. Also, your question about how many Ham use digital modes is really the heart of the issues of voice vs. digital modes. I think that the issue should be training Hams in digital modes as part of emergency training. While voice is excellent for emergency communications, digital is much more suited for transmission of data such as statistics and other non-alpha data. So, in short, I think that the goal of ARES/RACES and other emergency services should be to train up Hams, rather than go to the least common denominator and use mainly voice. 73... Jon W1MNK Andrew O'brien wrote Keeping this thread digital related, my main point is that the USA system has developed a very good method for transmission of urgent information. However, the use of Pactor and PACKET has added an layer that complicates simple emergency communications. As my recent Field Day demo illustrated, the majority of hams have NO CLUE on how to set up digital modes for use with amateur radio, even for a non-emergency digital rag-chew. And, as a ham involved in a recent drill told me, I am at least experienced in some digital modes but still had difficulty remembering Flex-Net and Winlink processes. Can you imagine what it would have been like in a real scenario where the hams that turned up were hams with no knowledge of anything other than using a repeater. While their ability to use a simple repeater system may have been all the skills they needed, the drill organizers had deliberately established packet radio as the method for liaison between government officials and RACES. I wonder how many hams actually USE digital modes? I am going to guess that is or probably no more than 15 percent of licensed hams. I think WINLINK and other such systems work wonderfully well, but think the backbone of an emergency communication system should be based on the skills and capabilities of the average ham, not the specialist ham. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Something is new at Yahoo! Groups. Check out the enhanced email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/SISQkA/gOaOAA/yQLSAA/ELTolB/TM ~- Need a Digital mode QSO? Connect to Telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Other areas of interest: The MixW Reflector : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup/ DigiPol: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Digipol (band plan policy discussion) Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
