Re: [digitalradio] Experiences from users of MIL-STD-188-110
I am planning a local 6M test this weekend. Andy K3UK On 8/7/07, Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > I see Steve's point, even though he did not just tell us the baud rate. > > I have been doing a lot of hunting around trying to find and understand > the single tone waveforms used in MIL-STD-110. They don't often mention > the actual baud rate because it appears that it is always 2400 baud. And > maybe that is all the time? > > One source that I found helpful, was a Norwegian doctoral dissertation > on Adaptive Turbo Equalization which made the background information a > bit more understandable since he worked through some of the examples. > > With 188-110B at the slowest 75 baud rate here is the calculation to > confirm the symbol (baud) rate: > > fa = Rc x Q x Rf x fs > > fa = data rate @ 75 bps > Rc = code rate @ 1/16 or .0625 > Q = bit rate per symbol @ 1 > Rf = frame pattern efficiency 1/2 or .5 > fs = symbol (baud) rate > > 75 bps = .0625 x 1 x .5 x fs > 75 = .03125 fs > 75 /.03125 = fs > fs = 2400 baud > > It seems hard to believe that this stuff can actually work, but until we > get the rules changed for text baud rate to at least 2400, we won't be > able to use this technology here in the U.S. on the HF bands as the > lowest band we can operate 2400 baud on is 6 meters which allows 19600 > baud. But it certainly can be tested on this band with hams that are > close enough to try it out. > Especially, noteworthy would be the AWGN on 6 meters with little QRM and > QRN so you should be able to get a good feel for how well it works down > into the noise since you could easily compare it to other modes. This is > made even easier these days since we have more rigs that can work on 6 > meters. > > Anyone doing that and who is willing to report on their comparisons? > > 73, > > Rick, KV9U >
Re: [digitalradio] Experiences from users of MIL-STD-188-110
I see Steve's point, even though he did not just tell us the baud rate. I have been doing a lot of hunting around trying to find and understand the single tone waveforms used in MIL-STD-110. They don't often mention the actual baud rate because it appears that it is always 2400 baud. And maybe that is all the time? One source that I found helpful, was a Norwegian doctoral dissertation on Adaptive Turbo Equalization which made the background information a bit more understandable since he worked through some of the examples. With 188-110B at the slowest 75 baud rate here is the calculation to confirm the symbol (baud) rate: fa = Rc x Q x Rf x fs fa = data rate @ 75 bps Rc = code rate @ 1/16 or .0625 Q = bit rate per symbol @ 1 Rf = frame pattern efficiency 1/2 or .5 fs = symbol (baud) rate 75 bps = .0625 x 1 x .5 x fs 75 = .03125 fs 75 /.03125 = fs fs = 2400 baud It seems hard to believe that this stuff can actually work, but until we get the rules changed for text baud rate to at least 2400, we won't be able to use this technology here in the U.S. on the HF bands as the lowest band we can operate 2400 baud on is 6 meters which allows 19600 baud. But it certainly can be tested on this band with hams that are close enough to try it out. Especially, noteworthy would be the AWGN on 6 meters with little QRM and QRN so you should be able to get a good feel for how well it works down into the noise since you could easily compare it to other modes. This is made even easier these days since we have more rigs that can work on 6 meters. Anyone doing that and who is willing to report on their comparisons? 73, Rick, KV9U Steve Hajducek wrote: > > In the U.S. ( correct me if I am wrong) which you are located, 300bps > for MIL-STD-188-110 is not legal for data on HF, nothing is due to > the symbol rate. > > Anyhow, what ever, who ever, where ever does using MIL-STD-188-110 > within the ARS, the standard 1800hz PSK carrier and 2400bps symbol > rate necessitates a 3Khz BW, so if you are not at least at 2.7Khz IF > BW, the results using the standard modem settings will be poor and the > higher the data rate the worst the results under perfect channel > conditions, add in QSB and the like and you get the picture. > > /s/ Steve, N2CKH >
Re: [digitalradio] Experiences from users of MIL-STD-188-110
I am hoping that the new PC-ALE version will be out so that we can try this with my ICOM rig. By the way, was looking at the various K3UK helpers and worked N2SLB on CW using the SKCC Helper. Almost worked an Olivia DX station listed on the Digital one but a German station beat me to it:) Tom, KC9ECI is a somewhat local ham who I understand was a major player in starting SKCC. 73, Rick, KV9U Andrew O'Brien wrote: > Rick et Luc, > > I have set mine to no more than 300 baud to make sure I am legal below > 10M, let me know if you want to sked. > > Of course, with ALE...we should not need to "sked", just call me :>) > > Andy > > On 8/6/07, *Luc Fontaine* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: > > Well I would like to do more tests with that mode when conditions > will be good. Would like also to try at >300 bps. > > Luc > VE2FXL > > > - Original Message - > *From:* Andrew O'Brien <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > *To:* digitalradio@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:digitalradio@yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Monday, August 06, 2007 2:19 PM > *Subject:* Re: [digitalradio] Experiences from users of > MIL-STD-188-110 > > Luc , VE2???, is also playing around with this. Bonnie talked > me through the up and I was able to make a link with Luc under > fairly poor conditions. I will be happy to do some tests at > 300 baud or less. > Has anyone tried it at higher rates on 6M ? > > Andy K3UK > > > On 8/6/07, *Rick* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > What software do you suggest? If PC-ALE will be able to > key the PTT line > via CAT interfacing with an upcoming new version, this > should work for > me with my main digital rig which is the ICOM 756 Pro 2. > > But if I understand it correctly, I could use my Ten Tec > Argonaut V, > although I don't normally have the fans plugged in since I > mostly use > this rig for QRP CW and for general monitoring. > > Since you can select the baud rates, if you work below 10 > meters here in > the U.S., you can just set the maximum rate at 300 bps and > both the > minimum and default values at 75 bps. > > For stations who are close together, say 30 miles, with > modest antennas, > or much farther with gain antennas, this should also work > up to 1200 > baud on 10 meters and higher on 6 meters and up. This > won't give you an > accurate lower band HF experience, but might give you some > feel for how > well (or not) the modes perform. > > Isn't anyone else trying out these software programs with > MIL-STD-188-110 and can give us some feedback on their > results? Is it > due to lack of interest, or getting it to work with your > equipment? > > 73, > > Rick, KV9U > > Andrew O'Brien wrote: > > I have done some playing around with this Rick. Let me > know if you > > want to try a "QSO". > > > > Andy K3UK > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.6/938 - Release Date: 8/5/2007 4:16 > PM >
Re: [digitalradio] Experiences from users of MIL-STD-188-110
Hi Andy, In the U.S. ( correct me if I am wrong) which you are located, 300bps for MIL-STD-188-110 is not legal for data on HF, nothing is due to the symbol rate. Anyhow, what ever, who ever, where ever does using MIL-STD-188-110 within the ARS, the standard 1800hz PSK carrier and 2400bps symbol rate necessitates a 3Khz BW, so if you are not at least at 2.7Khz IF BW, the results using the standard modem settings will be poor and the higher the data rate the worst the results under perfect channel conditions, add in QSB and the like and you get the picture. /s/ Steve, N2CKH At 06:24 PM 8/6/2007, you wrote: Rick et Luc, I have set mine to no more than 300 baud to make sure I am legal below 10M, let me know if you want to sked. Of course, with ALE...we should not need to "sked", just call me :>) Andy On 8/6/07, Luc Fontaine <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well I would like to do more tests with that mode when conditions will be good. Would like also to try at >300 bps. Luc VE2FXL - Original Message - From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Andrew O'Brien To: <mailto:digitalradio@yahoogroups.com>digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 2:19 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Experiences from users of MIL-STD-188-110 Luc , VE2???, is also playing around with this. Bonnie talked me through the up and I was able to make a link with Luc under fairly poor conditions. I will be happy to do some tests at 300 baud or less. Has anyone tried it at higher rates on 6M ? Andy K3UK On 8/6/07, Rick <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Andy, What software do you suggest? If PC-ALE will be able to key the PTT line via CAT interfacing with an upcoming new version, this should work for me with my main digital rig which is the ICOM 756 Pro 2. But if I understand it correctly, I could use my Ten Tec Argonaut V, although I don't normally have the fans plugged in since I mostly use this rig for QRP CW and for general monitoring. Since you can select the baud rates, if you work below 10 meters here in the U.S., you can just set the maximum rate at 300 bps and both the minimum and default values at 75 bps. For stations who are close together, say 30 miles, with modest antennas, or much farther with gain antennas, this should also work up to 1200 baud on 10 meters and higher on 6 meters and up. This won't give you an accurate lower band HF experience, but might give you some feel for how well (or not) the modes perform. Isn't anyone else trying out these software programs with MIL-STD-188-110 and can give us some feedback on their results? Is it due to lack of interest, or getting it to work with your equipment? 73, Rick, KV9U Andrew O'Brien wrote: > I have done some playing around with this Rick. Let me know if you > want to try a "QSO". > > Andy K3UK
Re: [digitalradio] Experiences from users of MIL-STD-188-110
Rick et Luc, I have set mine to no more than 300 baud to make sure I am legal below 10M, let me know if you want to sked. Of course, with ALE...we should not need to "sked", just call me :>) Andy On 8/6/07, Luc Fontaine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Well I would like to do more tests with that mode when conditions will > be good. Would like also to try at >300 bps. > > Luc > VE2FXL > > > - Original Message - > *From:* Andrew O'Brien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > *To:* digitalradio@yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Monday, August 06, 2007 2:19 PM > *Subject:* Re: [digitalradio] Experiences from users of MIL-STD-188-110 > > Luc , VE2???, is also playing around with this. Bonnie talked me through > the up and I was able to make a link with Luc under fairly poor conditions. > I will be happy to do some tests at 300 baud or less. > Has anyone tried it at higher rates on 6M ? > > Andy K3UK > > > On 8/6/07, Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hi Andy, > > > > What software do you suggest? If PC-ALE will be able to key the PTT line > > > > via CAT interfacing with an upcoming new version, this should work for > > me with my main digital rig which is the ICOM 756 Pro 2. > > > > But if I understand it correctly, I could use my Ten Tec Argonaut V, > > although I don't normally have the fans plugged in since I mostly use > > this rig for QRP CW and for general monitoring. > > > > Since you can select the baud rates, if you work below 10 meters here in > > > > the U.S., you can just set the maximum rate at 300 bps and both the > > minimum and default values at 75 bps. > > > > For stations who are close together, say 30 miles, with modest antennas, > > > > or much farther with gain antennas, this should also work up to 1200 > > baud on 10 meters and higher on 6 meters and up. This won't give you an > > accurate lower band HF experience, but might give you some feel for how > > well (or not) the modes perform. > > > > Isn't anyone else trying out these software programs with > > MIL-STD-188-110 and can give us some feedback on their results? Is it > > due to lack of interest, or getting it to work with your equipment? > > > > 73, > > > > Rick, KV9U > > > > Andrew O'Brien wrote: > > > I have done some playing around with this Rick. Let me know if you > > > want to try a "QSO". > > > > > > Andy K3UK > > > > >
Re: [digitalradio] Experiences from users of MIL-STD-188-110
Well I would like to do more tests with that mode when conditions will be good. Would like also to try at >300 bps. Luc VE2FXL - Original Message - From: Andrew O'Brien To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 2:19 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Experiences from users of MIL-STD-188-110 Luc , VE2???, is also playing around with this. Bonnie talked me through the up and I was able to make a link with Luc under fairly poor conditions. I will be happy to do some tests at 300 baud or less. Has anyone tried it at higher rates on 6M ? Andy K3UK On 8/6/07, Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Andy, What software do you suggest? If PC-ALE will be able to key the PTT line via CAT interfacing with an upcoming new version, this should work for me with my main digital rig which is the ICOM 756 Pro 2. But if I understand it correctly, I could use my Ten Tec Argonaut V, although I don't normally have the fans plugged in since I mostly use this rig for QRP CW and for general monitoring. Since you can select the baud rates, if you work below 10 meters here in the U.S., you can just set the maximum rate at 300 bps and both the minimum and default values at 75 bps. For stations who are close together, say 30 miles, with modest antennas, or much farther with gain antennas, this should also work up to 1200 baud on 10 meters and higher on 6 meters and up. This won't give you an accurate lower band HF experience, but might give you some feel for how well (or not) the modes perform. Isn't anyone else trying out these software programs with MIL-STD-188-110 and can give us some feedback on their results? Is it due to lack of interest, or getting it to work with your equipment? 73, Rick, KV9U Andrew O'Brien wrote: > I have done some playing around with this Rick. Let me know if you > want to try a "QSO". > > Andy K3UK
Re: [digitalradio] Experiences from users of MIL-STD-188-110
Luc , VE2???, is also playing around with this. Bonnie talked me through the up and I was able to make a link with Luc under fairly poor conditions. I will be happy to do some tests at 300 baud or less. Has anyone tried it at higher rates on 6M ? Andy K3UK On 8/6/07, Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > What software do you suggest? If PC-ALE will be able to key the PTT line > via CAT interfacing with an upcoming new version, this should work for > me with my main digital rig which is the ICOM 756 Pro 2. > > But if I understand it correctly, I could use my Ten Tec Argonaut V, > although I don't normally have the fans plugged in since I mostly use > this rig for QRP CW and for general monitoring. > > Since you can select the baud rates, if you work below 10 meters here in > the U.S., you can just set the maximum rate at 300 bps and both the > minimum and default values at 75 bps. > > For stations who are close together, say 30 miles, with modest antennas, > or much farther with gain antennas, this should also work up to 1200 > baud on 10 meters and higher on 6 meters and up. This won't give you an > accurate lower band HF experience, but might give you some feel for how > well (or not) the modes perform. > > Isn't anyone else trying out these software programs with > MIL-STD-188-110 and can give us some feedback on their results? Is it > due to lack of interest, or getting it to work with your equipment? > > 73, > > Rick, KV9U > > Andrew O'Brien wrote: > > I have done some playing around with this Rick. Let me know if you > > want to try a "QSO". > > > > Andy K3UK > >
Re: [digitalradio] Experiences from users of MIL-STD-188-110
Hi Andy, What software do you suggest? If PC-ALE will be able to key the PTT line via CAT interfacing with an upcoming new version, this should work for me with my main digital rig which is the ICOM 756 Pro 2. But if I understand it correctly, I could use my Ten Tec Argonaut V, although I don't normally have the fans plugged in since I mostly use this rig for QRP CW and for general monitoring. Since you can select the baud rates, if you work below 10 meters here in the U.S., you can just set the maximum rate at 300 bps and both the minimum and default values at 75 bps. For stations who are close together, say 30 miles, with modest antennas, or much farther with gain antennas, this should also work up to 1200 baud on 10 meters and higher on 6 meters and up. This won't give you an accurate lower band HF experience, but might give you some feel for how well (or not) the modes perform. Isn't anyone else trying out these software programs with MIL-STD-188-110 and can give us some feedback on their results? Is it due to lack of interest, or getting it to work with your equipment? 73, Rick, KV9U Andrew O'Brien wrote: > I have done some playing around with this Rick. Let me know if you > want to try a "QSO". > > Andy K3UK
Re: [digitalradio] Experiences from users of MIL-STD-188-110
I have done some playing around with this Rick. Let me know if you want to try a "QSO". Andy K3UK On 8/4/07, Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > When or how do you use the FS-1052, Appendix B modes? > > My current understanding is that FS-1052 is a subset of the > MIL-STD-188-110 modem and you can then select the default speeds and > maximum speeds, etc. > > Isn't this completely legal as long as you set the minimum and default > for 75 bps and the maximum at 300 bps? > > If these modes are as good as has been promoted at the currently illegal > speeds here in the U.S. (> 300 bps), they should work quite nicely for > the "slower" speeds up to 300 baud, since the slower speeds are going to > have the most robust signals possible with these modes. > > It seems very odd to me that we are not hearing any of this on any > digital groups and yet the ALE linking group is recommending to the ARRL > that we use this in place of developing new modes. > > Can those of you who are using these modes tell us more about them and > your experiences? Particularly throughput speeds and robustness compared > with other modes? > > 73, > > Rick, KV9U > > Steve Hajducek wrote: > > Hi Andy, > > > > It is the same 8FSK modem, however it uses shorter bursts for calling > > and sounding and there is a PSK burst mode as well which uses the > > MIL-STD-188-110 modem for generation. > > > > /s/ Steve, N2CKH > > > > > >
[digitalradio] Experiences from users of MIL-STD-188-110
When or how do you use the FS-1052, Appendix B modes? My current understanding is that FS-1052 is a subset of the MIL-STD-188-110 modem and you can then select the default speeds and maximum speeds, etc. Isn't this completely legal as long as you set the minimum and default for 75 bps and the maximum at 300 bps? If these modes are as good as has been promoted at the currently illegal speeds here in the U.S. (> 300 bps), they should work quite nicely for the "slower" speeds up to 300 baud, since the slower speeds are going to have the most robust signals possible with these modes. It seems very odd to me that we are not hearing any of this on any digital groups and yet the ALE linking group is recommending to the ARRL that we use this in place of developing new modes. Can those of you who are using these modes tell us more about them and your experiences? Particularly throughput speeds and robustness compared with other modes? 73, Rick, KV9U Steve Hajducek wrote: > Hi Andy, > > It is the same 8FSK modem, however it uses shorter bursts for calling > and sounding and there is a PSK burst mode as well which uses the > MIL-STD-188-110 modem for generation. > > /s/ Steve, N2CKH > >
