Re: [digitalradio] Re: 1000 Hz Olivia under USA new rules ?

2009-03-24 Thread Rick W
When the FCC uses the term of the same modulation type, that would be 
the first symbol of the ITU Emission Classification system or the main 
carrier modulation. Thus, if you are using SSB as the primary 
modulation then you are limited to what is considered a communications 
quality signal. As amateur practices have improved over the years, this 
is quite narrow, often not a lot more than 2000 Hz depending upon the 
transmitter.

Needless to say, modes wider than communications quality are not 
permitted by the FCC on most of the HF bands since the whole point is to 
use amateur radio friendly modes that are spectrum efficient. The FCC 
requires that we use good amateur practice as our guide.

Further, most of us are also going to also take into consideration and 
abide by the IARU Region 2 Band Plan which does not allow any modes 
wider than 2700 Hz below 29.000 MHz in the RTTY/Data portions of those 
bands.

Before the advent of multitone modems, we had 2 tone FSK modems. 
Initially, the spacing of the mark and space tones was as much as 850 
Hz. As technology improved, ham friendly technology allowed the 
reduction to narrower shifts and is now typically 170 Hz with a few 
modems using 200 Hz. But the intent for the maximum 1000 Hz shift was 
clearly to keep the bandwidth narrow.

After the development of many multitone modes, the FCC reinterpreted the 
rules to consider the baud rate of an individual tone, rather than 
overall baud rate. This means that single tone modems such as 
MIL-STD-188-110A are illegal to use in the U.S. RTTY/Data portions 
because they use 2400 baud at all times, independent of the actual data 
rate throughput. They may possibly be legal to use in the Phone/Image 
portions. Several of us have asked for clarification from the FCC and 
have been stonewalled repeatedly for quite some time.

Multitone modems that use FSK typically have the tones separated by a 
small number of Hz and are therefore legal as long as any individual 
tone does not exceed 300 baud, therefore we can use modes as wide as a 
communications quality phone transmission in the RTTY/Data portions 
according to Part 97.

We are limited by the transceiver capabilities since some are hard 
pressed to even do 2000 kHz, but with DSP and other modified equipment 
the passband can be greatly extended. The 2700 Hz maximum allowed under 
the IARU Band Plan recommendation seems about as wide as any ham 
friendly mode should be operating. Even then this should only be used 
under unusual circumstances and on a band that is not busy with other 
signals.

Final thought ... just because you can do something, does not 
necessarily mean you should be doing it.

73,

Rick, KV9U








Tooner wrote:
 --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Rick W mrf...@... wrote:
   
 ... There is no conflict with using wide modes (FCC defined as up
 to the bandwidth of a communications quality phone transmission)
 as long as the baud rate of an individual tone does not exceed
 300 baud.
 

 Hey Rick.  Thanks for the reply!

 I think the confusion I have with quality phone transmission comment is the 
 part that says ...of the same modulation type.

 And you say the individual tone, but I read symbol rate in the regs.  Can 
 an individual tone have a baud rate?  I thought the rate was how fast the 
 tones were being sent, like a computer modem.  Or, are both quotes meaning 
 the same thing?

 From what I understand, let's say, in the 20 and 40M sub-bands, the maximum 
 width for a signal is 1000 wide, not as wide as phone TX.  That's found 
 under § 97.305 Authorized emission types.

 It says 20 m 14.00–14.15 MHz, RTTY, data, and refers to (3) of § 97.307(f), 
 which says: The symbol rate must not exceed 300 bauds, or for 
 frequency-shift keying, the frequency shift between mark and space must not 
 exceed 1 kHz.

 Reason I ask, and I'm sorry if I sound dense, is it legal to transmit on the 
 digital modes sub-bands modes that are greater than 1000 wide, like Olivia 
 2000?  Some modes can easily be 3000 wide, but still narrower than phone 
 communications.

 I've not really been able to get an answer that confirms the question:  
 Assuming it's in a band or sub-band that digital modes are authorized, can 
 we operate digital modes that are wider than 1k?

 Thanks for the help and input!

 f, k2ncc



 

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[digitalradio] Re: 1000 Hz Olivia under USA new rules ?

2009-03-23 Thread Tooner
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Rick W mrf...@... wrote:

 ... There is no conflict with using wide modes (FCC defined as up
 to the bandwidth of a communications quality phone transmission)
 as long as the baud rate of an individual tone does not exceed
 300 baud.

Hey Rick.  Thanks for the reply!

I think the confusion I have with quality phone transmission comment is the 
part that says ...of the same modulation type.

And you say the individual tone, but I read symbol rate in the regs.  Can 
an individual tone have a baud rate?  I thought the rate was how fast the tones 
were being sent, like a computer modem.  Or, are both quotes meaning the same 
thing?

From what I understand, let's say, in the 20 and 40M sub-bands, the maximum 
width for a signal is 1000 wide, not as wide as phone TX.  That's found under 
§ 97.305 Authorized emission types.

It says 20 m 14.00–14.15 MHz, RTTY, data, and refers to (3) of § 97.307(f), 
which says: The symbol rate must not exceed 300 bauds, or for frequency-shift 
keying, the frequency shift between mark and space must not exceed 1 kHz.

Reason I ask, and I'm sorry if I sound dense, is it legal to transmit on the 
digital modes sub-bands modes that are greater than 1000 wide, like Olivia 
2000?  Some modes can easily be 3000 wide, but still narrower than phone 
communications.

I've not really been able to get an answer that confirms the question:  
Assuming it's in a band or sub-band that digital modes are authorized, can we 
operate digital modes that are wider than 1k?

Thanks for the help and input!

f, k2ncc



[digitalradio] Re: 1000 Hz Olivia under USA new rules ?

2009-02-12 Thread Tooner
whatever came of this?



Re: [digitalradio] Re: 1000 Hz Olivia under USA new rules ?

2009-02-12 Thread Rick W
What further information did you need, Tooner? There is no conflict with 
using wide modes (FCC defined as up to the bandwidth of a communications 
quality phone transmission) as long as the baud rate of an individual 
tone does not exceed 300 baud.

73,

Rick, KV9U


Tooner wrote:
 whatever came of this?