Re: AW: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum (then Why ?)
Russell, Here is a screen shot of Olivia 32-1000, which is also a FSK mode. Notice the pattern at idle and in the middle, where I send six "N"'s. There is a repetitions pattern, just like in MFSK16, but wider. http://home.comcast.net/~hteller/OLIVIA32-1000.JPG What is apparently missing from ROS is any pattern at idle, which I assume means that the frequencies are generated randomly, and independently, and not by the data as in MFSK16 or Olivia 32-1000. In other words, the data is probably applied to each tone wherever it happens to be at the time. I hope I interpret this correctly. Maybe someone else has a different interpretation. 73 - Skip KH6TY Russell Blair wrote: If ROS is Multi FSK now, than WHY and WHAT was the intent to call it (SS) Spread Spectrum?, even as the FCC inplyed that the owner (Jose Albert Nieto)called it (SS). As much as I would like to use it and knowing that the FCC will not show up at my door, but they might send me a letter and ask me why and to show cause why. How that ROS has been labeled as SS, and all the others that might have use ROS is standing back just not knowing what to do it best just to now do anything yet. Russell NC5O 1- Whoever said nothing is impossible never tried slamming a revolving door! 2- A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. - Thomas Jefferson " IN GOD WE TRUST " Russell Blair (NC5O) Skype-Russell.Blair Hell Field #300 DRCC #55 30m Dig-group #693 *From:* jose alberto nieto ros *To:* digitalradio@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Thu, February 25, 2010 6:36:59 PM *Subject:* Re: AW: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum In fact, ROS is a Multi FSK, like many other modes. *De:* Siegfried Jackstien *Para:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 01:29 *Asunto:* AW: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum Bw lower as 3kc and fsk … like many other modes That is what i think So legal where 3kc wide/digital is legal so out of cw portion but in the digiarea Dg9bfc Sigi At a given time if you make a snapshot there is only one tone so bw at a given short time in lower as 500hz So it is narrow in a short period of time ;-) should be legal anywhere My thoughts is all modes should be legal in any band cause hamradio is experimental! *Von:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com ] *Im Auftrag von *max d *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2010 20:53 *An:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com *Betreff:* [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum Part 97.3 "Definitions" defines: "SS. Spread-spectrum emissions using bandwidth-expansion modulation emissions having designators with A, C, D, F, G, H, J or R as the first symbol; X as the second symbol; X as the third symbol. " Title 47 Sec. 2.201 is the relevant section formally defining these symbols. It can be found on the ARRL website. For a signal to be officially considered Spread Spectrum by the FCC, it would have to meet a very specific description, or maybe I should say it should not meet the other specific definitions of emissions. After my reading of 2.201, I don't think that ROS or Chip64 could be "officially" defined as Spread Spectrum. And, the response from the FCC doesn't provide any FCC position or interpretation of ROS, and further says "The Commission does not determine if a particular mode "truly" represents spread spectrum as it is defined in the rules." Just my thoughts, Max NN5L
Re: AW: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum (then Why ?)
Russell, Here is a screen shot, using DigiPan as an audio spectrum analyzer, comparing MFSK16 (bottom half) with ROS 1 baud (top half). During the top half of the ROS display, I sent data as six letter "N"'s. http://home.comcast.net/~hteller/SPECTRUM.JPG The difference between ROS and MFSK16 at idle (i.e. no data input), is that MFSK16 has repetitive carriers in a pattern, but the ROS idle has no repetitive pattern and when data is input, the pattern still appears to be random. Note the additional carriers when I send six letter "N"'s in MFSK16. It then returns to the repetitive pattern of an MFSK16 idle. Note that the data (i.e. "N"'s created new carriers depending upon the data. In this case, the frequency carriers are data dependent. If ROS is just FSK144, then I expected to find a repeating pattern at idle, but I never see one, even after letting ROS idle for a long time in transmit. Maybe somebody more knowledgeable than I am can interpret this better, or perhaps make their own test. 73 - Skip KH6TY Russell Blair wrote: If ROS is Multi FSK now, than WHY and WHAT was the intent to call it (SS) Spread Spectrum?, even as the FCC inplyed that the owner (Jose Albert Nieto)called it (SS). As much as I would like to use it and knowing that the FCC will not show up at my door, but they might send me a letter and ask me why and to show cause why. How that ROS has been labeled as SS, and all the others that might have use ROS is standing back just not knowing what to do it best just to now do anything yet. Russell NC5O 1- Whoever said nothing is impossible never tried slamming a revolving door! 2- A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. - Thomas Jefferson " IN GOD WE TRUST " Russell Blair (NC5O) Skype-Russell.Blair Hell Field #300 DRCC #55 30m Dig-group #693 *From:* jose alberto nieto ros *To:* digitalradio@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Thu, February 25, 2010 6:36:59 PM *Subject:* Re: AW: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum In fact, ROS is a Multi FSK, like many other modes. *De:* Siegfried Jackstien *Para:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com *Enviado:* vie,26 febrero, 2010 01:29 *Asunto:* AW: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum Bw lower as 3kc and fsk … like many other modes That is what i think So legal where 3kc wide/digital is legal so out of cw portion but in the digiarea Dg9bfc Sigi At a given time if you make a snapshot there is only one tone so bw at a given short time in lower as 500hz So it is narrow in a short period of time ;-) should be legal anywhere My thoughts is all modes should be legal in any band cause hamradio is experimental! *Von:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com ] *Im Auftrag von *max d *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2010 20:53 *An:* digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com *Betreff:* [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum Part 97.3 "Definitions" defines: "SS. Spread-spectrum emissions using bandwidth-expansion modulation emissions having designators with A, C, D, F, G, H, J or R as the first symbol; X as the second symbol; X as the third symbol. " Title 47 Sec. 2.201 is the relevant section formally defining these symbols. It can be found on the ARRL website. For a signal to be officially considered Spread Spectrum by the FCC, it would have to meet a very specific description, or maybe I should say it should not meet the other specific definitions of emissions. After my reading of 2.201, I don't think that ROS or Chip64 could be "officially" defined as Spread Spectrum. And, the response from the FCC doesn't provide any FCC position or interpretation of ROS, and further says "The Commission does not determine if a particular mode "truly" represents spread spectrum as it is defined in the rules." Just my thoughts, Max NN5L
Re: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum
Sorry, I meant to write, "For example in SSB, the RF frequency at any time is equal to the tone frequency of the voice plus the suppressed carrier frequency (USB)". I did not mean the tone frequency at any time...etc. 73 - Skip KH6TY KH6TY wrote: Max d, The distinction is simple - If the carriers or tones which create the bandwidth expansion (or spreading), are accomplished by means of a spreading signal , i.e., a separate code signal, which is independent of the data , then it is spread spectrum no matter what you would like to call it. If the tone frequencies are DEPENDENT on the data, then it is NOT spread spectrum. For example in SSB, the tone frequency at any time is equal to the tone frequency of the voice plus the suppressed carrier frequency (USB). Viewing the signal on a spectrum analyzer both with and without data input will probably reveal this, which the FCC will certainly do, now that the question of whether or not ROS is spread spectrum has been raised. Jose's original paper on ROS and FHSS defined the three requirements very clearly. 73 - Skip KH6TY max d wrote: Part 97.3 "Definitions" defines: "SS. Spread-spectrum emissions using bandwidth-expansion modulation emissions having designators with A, C, D, F, G, H, J or R as the first symbol; X as the second symbol; X as the third symbol. " Title 47 Sec. 2.201 is the relevant section formally defining these symbols. It can be found on the ARRL website. For a signal to be officially considered Spread Spectrum by the FCC, it would have to meet a very specific description, or maybe I should say it should not meet the other specific definitions of emissions. After my reading of 2.201, I don't think that ROS or Chip64 could be "officially" defined as Spread Spectrum. And, the response from the FCC doesn't provide any FCC position or interpretation of ROS, and further says "The Commission does not determine if a particular mode "truly" represents spread spectrum as it is defined in the rules." Just my thoughts, Max NN5L
Re: AW: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum (then Why ?)
If ROS is Multi FSK now, than WHY and WHAT was the intent to call it (SS) Spread Spectrum?, even as the FCC inplyed that the owner (Jose Albert Nieto)called it (SS). As much as I would like to use it and knowing that the FCC will not show up at my door, but they might send me a letter and ask me why and to show cause why. How that ROS has been labeled as SS, and all the others that might have use ROS is standing back just not knowing what to do it best just to now do anything yet. Russell NC5O 1- Whoever said nothing is impossible never tried slamming a revolving door! 2- A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. - Thomas Jefferson " IN GOD WE TRUST " Russell Blair (NC5O) Skype-Russell.Blair Hell Field #300 DRCC #55 30m Dig-group #693 From: jose alberto nieto ros To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, February 25, 2010 6:36:59 PM Subject: Re: AW: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum In fact, ROS is a Multi FSK, like many other modes. De: Siegfried Jackstien Para: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 01:29 Asunto: AW: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum Bw lower as 3kc and fsk … like many other modes That is what i think So legal where 3kc wide/digital is legal so out of cw portion but in the digiarea Dg9bfc Sigi At a given time if you make a snapshot there is only one tone so bw at a given short time in lower as 500hz So it is narrow in a short period of time ;-) should be legal anywhere My thoughts is all modes should be legal in any band cause hamradio is experimental! Von:digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com ] Im Auftrag von max d Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2010 20:53 An: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Betreff: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum Part 97.3 "Definitions" defines: "SS. Spread-spectrum emissions using bandwidth-expansion modulation emissions having designators with A, C, D, F, G, H, J or R as the first symbol; X as the second symbol; X as the third symbol. " Title 47 Sec. 2.201 is the relevant section formally defining these symbols. It can be found on the ARRL website. For a signal to be officially considered Spread Spectrum by the FCC, it would have to meet a very specific description, or maybe I should say it should not meet the other specific definitions of emissions. After my reading of 2.201, I don't think that ROS or Chip64 could be "officially" defined as Spread Spectrum. And, the response from the FCC doesn't provide any FCC position or interpretation of ROS, and further says "The Commission does not determine if a particular mode "truly" represents spread spectrum as it is defined in the rules." Just my thoughts, Max NN5L
Re: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum
Max d, The distinction is simple - If the carriers or tones which create the bandwidth expansion (or spreading), are accomplished by means of a spreading signal , i.e., a separate code signal, which is independent of the data , then it is spread spectrum no matter what you would like to call it. If the tone frequencies are DEPENDENT on the data, then it is NOT spread spectrum. For example in SSB, the tone frequency at any time is equal to the tone frequency of the voice plus the suppressed carrier frequency (USB). Viewing the signal on a spectrum analyzer both with and without data input will probably reveal this, which the FCC will certainly do, now that the question of whether or not ROS is spread spectrum has been raised. Jose's original paper on ROS and FHSS defined the three requirements very clearly. 73 - Skip KH6TY max d wrote: Part 97.3 "Definitions" defines: "SS. Spread-spectrum emissions using bandwidth-expansion modulation emissions having designators with A, C, D, F, G, H, J or R as the first symbol; X as the second symbol; X as the third symbol. " Title 47 Sec. 2.201 is the relevant section formally defining these symbols. It can be found on the ARRL website. For a signal to be officially considered Spread Spectrum by the FCC, it would have to meet a very specific description, or maybe I should say it should not meet the other specific definitions of emissions. After my reading of 2.201, I don't think that ROS or Chip64 could be "officially" defined as Spread Spectrum. And, the response from the FCC doesn't provide any FCC position or interpretation of ROS, and further says "The Commission does not determine if a particular mode "truly" represents spread spectrum as it is defined in the rules." Just my thoughts, Max NN5L
Re: AW: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum
In fact, ROS is a Multi FSK, like many other modes. De: Siegfried Jackstien Para: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Enviado: vie,26 febrero, 2010 01:29 Asunto: AW: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum Bw lower as 3kc and fsk … like many other modes That is what i think So legal where 3kc wide/digital is legal so out of cw portion but in the digiarea Dg9bfc Sigi At a given time if you make a snapshot there is only one tone so bw at a given short time in lower as 500hz So it is narrow in a short period of time ;-) should be legal anywhere My thoughts is all modes should be legal in any band cause hamradio is experimental! Von:digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com ] Im Auftrag von max d Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2010 20:53 An: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Betreff: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum Part 97.3 "Definitions" defines: "SS. Spread-spectrum emissions using bandwidth-expansion modulation emissions having designators with A, C, D, F, G, H, J or R as the first symbol; X as the second symbol; X as the third symbol. " Title 47 Sec. 2.201 is the relevant section formally defining these symbols. It can be found on the ARRL website. For a signal to be officially considered Spread Spectrum by the FCC, it would have to meet a very specific description, or maybe I should say it should not meet the other specific definitions of emissions. After my reading of 2.201, I don't think that ROS or Chip64 could be "officially" defined as Spread Spectrum. And, the response from the FCC doesn't provide any FCC position or interpretation of ROS, and further says "The Commission does not determine if a particular mode "truly" represents spread spectrum as it is defined in the rules." Just my thoughts, Max NN5L
AW: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum
Bw lower as 3kc and fsk . like many other modes That is what i think So legal where 3kc wide/digital is legal so out of cw portion but in the digiarea Dg9bfc Sigi At a given time if you make a snapshot there is only one tone so bw at a given short time in lower as 500hz So it is narrow in a short period of time ;-) should be legal anywhere My thoughts is all modes should be legal in any band cause hamradio is experimental! _ Von: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:digitalra...@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von max d Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2010 20:53 An: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum Part 97.3 "Definitions" defines: "SS. Spread-spectrum emissions using bandwidth-expansion modulation emissions having designators with A, C, D, F, G, H, J or R as the first symbol; X as the second symbol; X as the third symbol. " Title 47 Sec. 2.201 is the relevant section formally defining these symbols. It can be found on the ARRL website. For a signal to be officially considered Spread Spectrum by the FCC, it would have to meet a very specific description, or maybe I should say it should not meet the other specific definitions of emissions. After my reading of 2.201, I don't think that ROS or Chip64 could be "officially" defined as Spread Spectrum. And, the response from the FCC doesn't provide any FCC position or interpretation of ROS, and further says "The Commission does not determine if a particular mode "truly" represents spread spectrum as it is defined in the rules." Just my thoughts, Max NN5L
[digitalradio] The FCC's definition of Spread Spectrum
Part 97.3 "Definitions" defines: "SS. Spread-spectrum emissions using bandwidth-expansion modulation emissions having designators with A, C, D, F, G, H, J or R as the first symbol; X as the second symbol; X as the third symbol. " Title 47 Sec. 2.201 is the relevant section formally defining these symbols. It can be found on the ARRL website. For a signal to be officially considered Spread Spectrum by the FCC, it would have to meet a very specific description, or maybe I should say it should not meet the other specific definitions of emissions. After my reading of 2.201, I don't think that ROS or Chip64 could be "officially" defined as Spread Spectrum. And, the response from the FCC doesn't provide any FCC position or interpretation of ROS, and further says "The Commission does not determine if a particular mode "truly" represents spread spectrum as it is defined in the rules." Just my thoughts, Max NN5L
