Re: [Discuss] GMail doesn't recognize mailing lists

[Daniel C.]

On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:18 AM, Greg Rundlett (freephile)
 wrote:
> Why doesn't GMail reply to list by default?! Does this lack of feature bug
> you?

Gmail is behaving correctly.  The reply-to header is set by the
mailing list administrator, and should be obeyed by the mail client.
If you want this list to reply to list by default, feel free to argue
your case here but be warned that this topic is almost always a sticky
morass of flames, dogma and other unpleasantness.

-Dan
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[Discuss] GMail doesn't recognize mailing lists

[Greg Rundlett (freephile)]

Why doesn't GMail reply to list by default?! Does this lack of feature bug
you? Suggest this feature at http://mail.google.com/
support/bin/static.py?page=suggestions.cs

Greg Rundlett
my public PGP 
key
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Re: [Discuss] Virtual hosting provider (me too)

[Greg Rundlett (freephile)]

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 8:59 AM, Edward Ned Harvey  wrote:

> > From: greg.rundl...@gmail.com [mailto:greg.rundl...@gmail.com] On Behalf
> > Of Greg Rundlett (freephile)
> >
> > I find Amazon to be too complex - although I never really took it too
> far.
>  And
> > they're not inexpensive either.
>
> Complex in what regard?  I just logged in, clicked on create instance,
> answered a couple of questions about which OS I want to run, and voila, I
> have a VM instance that is free (for the first year) and $7/mo thereafter,
> which is comparably spec'd to the $20 system from linode you mentioned in
> the preceding paragraph.  The only complexity I would say I had was...
> Aware that certain instance types use persistent storage, and others don't.
> So I selected the checkbox for persistent storage.  And the only supported
> authentication mechanism is ssh keys, so I can't be clueless about ssh keys
> in order to use the system.
>
> Perhaps when you need to grow out larger than what's included in the
> default
> instance - more cpus ram or disk - perhaps that's complexity you're talking
> about?  Or you don't like the variable pricing, prefer simpler flat-rate
> pricing?
>
>
When I used AWS was when it was new - which meant it was complex because
you had to come up to speed with stuff that was brand new.  And most
recently over a year ago by which time they had a full suite of products
and services to mix and match.  I like to know how stuff works (underneath)
and that's one reason why I love GNU software... I get to see how it works.
 I don't like clicking buttons to make things work.  For Amazon, it always
seemed like they had a new product or new add-on every week.  I didn't want
to have to figure out what was the best model or strategy for assembling
those pieces.  Putting it another way, I'm not a big fan of "control
panels" for hosting like webmin and later iterations on that concept.  They
DO make it easy, but I'd rather be closer to the actual machinery.

Greg Rundlett
my public PGP 
key




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Re: [Discuss] Security

[Dan Ritter]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 09:33:18PM -0400, d...@geer.org wrote:
> 
> > Case in point: a few gigs back we got hit by Slammer on the inside
> > of our firewalled network.  It wasn't ourselves.  It was a visiting
> > vendor or some such who brought it in on his own laptop and it
> > spread when he plugged it into our network.
> 
> Not trying to open a rathole, but are any of ya'll dealing
> with "consumerization"?  ("Bring-your-PC-to-work," etc.)


Everyone wants to connect their iPad or phone... so we got a
cheap cable modem from Comcast, wired up a WiFi router, and 
let them play. 

No more privileges than a Starbucks. Highly recommended.


-dsr-

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Re: [Discuss] Security

[dan]

> Case in point: a few gigs back we got hit by Slammer on the inside
> of our firewalled network.  It wasn't ourselves.  It was a visiting
> vendor or some such who brought it in on his own laptop and it
> spread when he plugged it into our network.

Not trying to open a rathole, but are any of ya'll dealing
with "consumerization"?  ("Bring-your-PC-to-work," etc.)

--dan

ref: GE CIO
http://www.slideshare.net/SOURCEConference/james-beeson-source-boston-2011

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Re: [Discuss] LVM Snapshot Wrapup

[David Miller]

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Edward Ned Harvey  wrote:

> FWIW, there is no fsck in ZFS either.  They figure it's unnecessary, and
> it's very rare anyone needs/wants such a thing.  The world moves on...
>
> Both zfs & btrfs have scrub (or scan).  Have for a long time.
>

Scrub functionality has been in btrfs-progs developers builds for a while
now but it's just now been released outside of dev builds.
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/New-release-of-the-Btrfs-tools-1369260.html
--
David
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Re: [Discuss] Security

[Richard Pieri]

On Nov 2, 2011, at 8:41 PM, Gregory Boyce wrote:
> 
> "Rogue Vending machine" strikes me as a movie theater threat.  Rogue
> devices can be a very real problem, but you're much more likely to be
> hit by a users virus infected home laptop or potentially a malicious
> device other than a vending machine.

Case in point: a few gigs back we got hit by Slammer on the inside of our 
firewalled network.  It wasn't ourselves.  It was a visiting vendor or some 
such who brought it in on his own laptop and it spread when he plugged it into 
our network.

Another case in point:
http://tech.mit.edu/V131/N30/swartz.html

--Rich P.

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Re: [Discuss] Security

[Gregory Boyce]

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Matt Shields  wrote:

> I think his point was more that these "smart" vending machines are becoming
> more commonplace.  Even these days companies put ethernet jacks in the
> kitchen, so what *if* someone who was malicious put something inside a
> vending machine and plugged it into your network.  Or what if it had
> camera/microphone, most people talk shop even in the kitchen.
> Speaking of that, I remember a few years ago a company I was at talking
> about checking ethernet jacks periodically to make sure no devices were
> plugged in that shouldn't be.

If rogue devices on your network is a concern, then there are ways to
combat that problem.  Implement 802.1X for network authentication, or
NAC.  Look at anomaly based IDS devices to detect unusual behavior, or
signature based IDS to detect known threats.  Monitor your switches so
you know when new devices are plugged into the network.

"Rogue Vending machine" strikes me as a movie theater threat.  Rogue
devices can be a very real problem, but you're much more likely to be
hit by a users virus infected home laptop or potentially a malicious
device other than a vending machine.  Bring up a specific threat like
this one, and you'll find management talking about implementing some
sort of hardware review for on site equipment, rather than something
that would also find the more common threats.
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Re: [Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?

[Frank DiPrete]

Probably an old school SCSI cable - scsi on db25 to scsi centronics
I Had one to hook up a zip drive to an adaptec card.
A piece of ancient history.

Nuno Sucena Almeida wrote:

On 11/01/2011 09:27 PM, Dan Kressin wrote:

Anybody recognize this cable configuration?  Male DB15 (two rows - 8/7) to 50pin 
Centronics.  Ribbon cable w/ two (the name escapes me ..) "ring things" to 
usually used to fight inductance..  The only DB15 connectors I'm familiar with are for 
old Mac monitors, PC joysticks, and.. well I guess that's it.  Serial would have been 9 
or 25..




Seems to be a Nortel Nortel Network Cable - 50 Pin Mini-Centronics (M) -
DB-15 (M)

Nuno


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Re: [Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?

[Nuno Sucena Almeida]

On 11/01/2011 09:27 PM, Dan Kressin wrote:
> Anybody recognize this cable configuration?  Male DB15 (two rows - 8/7) to 
> 50pin Centronics.  Ribbon cable w/ two (the name escapes me ..) "ring things" 
> to usually used to fight inductance..  The only DB15 connectors I'm familiar 
> with are for old Mac monitors, PC joysticks, and.. well I guess that's it.  
> Serial would have been 9 or 25..



Seems to be a Nortel Nortel Network Cable - 50 Pin Mini-Centronics (M) -
DB-15 (M)

Nuno

-- 
http://aeminium.org/slug/
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Re: [Discuss] [OT] [Mac related] Wiping an old Mac

[Richard Pieri]

On Nov 2, 2011, at 4:36 PM, Edward Ned Harvey wrote:
> 
> Oh yeah - I just looked it up - that model was produced from 1997 to 2000
> and ran MacOS 9.  It's a dinosaur, and I'd feel safe saying it won't do
> target disk mode either.

Any Macintosh with FireWire version 2.3.3 or later can be started in target 
mode:
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1661

The PowerBook G3 FireWire, can be started in target mode.  The earlier models 
in the line cannot.  More information about the line here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_G3

> I bet it's a pain to pull out the hard disk.  And I'll bet it's a pain to
> find ANY thing that will boot on a PPC that old.  I would suggest either a
> sledgehammer, or a "don't care" with regards to data destruction on it...

Debian PPC should work.  All of the PowerBook G3 line will boot early versions 
of OS X, although the first model needs outside assistance.

--Rich P.

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Re: [Discuss] Discuss Digest, Vol 6, Issue 3

[Dan Kressin]

- Original Message -

> A corollary of this question is:  if you have an old Mac, how can you get the
> data off it if the machine is kaput?  My partner has one in the basement and
> when I plugged it in recently (motivated by all the hoopla about Jobs), the
> monitor would not come on.  (It's got a funky connector so ... no other
> compatible monitors in the house.)

No power light?  Or just no video?

I have two PowerMac 6100s that I'm testing prior to offering them on 
Freecycle.  One of them gave no video.  The culprit was a dead PRAM battery on 
the motherboard.  Apple's even got a TechNote about it.  Size 1/2AA, easily 
replaced ($8) and video was restored.  You might also try holding down 
Command("Apple")-Option-P-R while turning on the system.

-Dan, keeping my IIci because, well, I just like it for some reason..  Anyone 
got a 32k Cache card?  :-)

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Re: [Discuss] [OT] [Mac related] Wiping an old Mac

[Jerry Feldman]

On 11/02/2011 04:36 PM, Edward Ned Harvey wrote:
>> From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss-
>> bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Feldman
>>
>> This is not an OSX Mac
> Oh yeah - I just looked it up - that model was produced from 1997 to 2000
> and ran MacOS 9.  It's a dinosaur, and I'd feel safe saying it won't do
> target disk mode either.
>
> I bet it's a pain to pull out the hard disk.  And I'll bet it's a pain to
> find ANY thing that will boot on a PPC that old.  I would suggest either a
> sledgehammer, or a "don't care" with regards to data destruction on it...
>
>
She has standalone CDs. Apparently the laptop still works.

-- 
Jerry Feldman 
Boston Linux and Unix
PGP key id:3BC1EB90 
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Re: [Discuss] LVM Snapshot Wrapup

[Edward Ned Harvey]

> From: David Miller [mailto:davi...@gmail.com]
> 
> Yeah Fedora's problem was that there isn't a fsck utility.  Which is kind
of odd
> b/c with a COW fully check summed file system that stores data in multiple
> places for redundancy the actual use case for a fsck utility doesn't seem
to be
> there.  

FWIW, there is no fsck in ZFS either.  They figure it's unnecessary, and
it's very rare anyone needs/wants such a thing.  The world moves on...

Both zfs & btrfs have scrub (or scan).  Have for a long time.

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Re: [Discuss] [OT] [Mac related] Wiping an old Mac

[Edward Ned Harvey]

> From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss-
> bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Feldman
> 
> This is not an OSX Mac

Oh yeah - I just looked it up - that model was produced from 1997 to 2000
and ran MacOS 9.  It's a dinosaur, and I'd feel safe saying it won't do
target disk mode either.

I bet it's a pain to pull out the hard disk.  And I'll bet it's a pain to
find ANY thing that will boot on a PPC that old.  I would suggest either a
sledgehammer, or a "don't care" with regards to data destruction on it...

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Re: [Discuss] Security

[Matt Shields]

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Jerry Feldman  wrote:

> On 11/02/2011 01:10 PM, ma...@mohawksoft.com wrote:
> > At my work, here are a few vending machines. One of these machines has a
> > nice little antenna on it. Presumably, it communicates via cellular
> > network to the vendor in order to report on usage and supplies. Yes, good
> > idea. Cool.
> >
> > It occurs to me that this machine, most likely, did not have to go
> through
> > any vetting. Not only that, I bet the grunts that stock these machines
> are
> > hired more for strong backs and no criminal record.
> >
> > So, here we have a powered machine with external wireless connectivity on
> > the premises with no actual over site. It is there 24x7, powered!
> >
> > Think of all the cool/evil things you could put in a vending machine with
> > a wireless link. Imagine having direct access to a Linux box in almost
> any
> > company you want. You could run any software you want. You could have
> > wi-fi too. Could you break the company's wireless security? Could you
> > monitor their wireless communications? Could you eaves drop on
> > conversations near by?
> >
> > Everyone suspects the cleaning crew, and if you are interested in
> > security, you do background checks. Almost no one cares about the vending
> > machines.
> The vending machine was placed in your office by Homeland Security
> because it thinks you are a terrorist and is currently spying on you :-)
>
> --
> Jerry Feldman 
> Boston Linux and Unix
> PGP key id:3BC1EB90
> PGP Key fingerprint: 49E2 C52A FC5A A31F 8D66  C0AF 7CEA 30FC 3BC1 EB90
>
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Actually it was placed there by insurance companies so they can get out of
having to pay for your medical bills.

Matthew Shields
Owner
BeanTown Host - Web Hosting, Domain Names, Dedicated Servers, Colocation,
Managed Services
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Re: [Discuss] Security

[Jerry Feldman]

On 11/02/2011 01:10 PM, ma...@mohawksoft.com wrote:
> At my work, here are a few vending machines. One of these machines has a
> nice little antenna on it. Presumably, it communicates via cellular
> network to the vendor in order to report on usage and supplies. Yes, good
> idea. Cool.
>
> It occurs to me that this machine, most likely, did not have to go through
> any vetting. Not only that, I bet the grunts that stock these machines are
> hired more for strong backs and no criminal record.
>
> So, here we have a powered machine with external wireless connectivity on
> the premises with no actual over site. It is there 24x7, powered!
>
> Think of all the cool/evil things you could put in a vending machine with
> a wireless link. Imagine having direct access to a Linux box in almost any
> company you want. You could run any software you want. You could have
> wi-fi too. Could you break the company's wireless security? Could you
> monitor their wireless communications? Could you eaves drop on
> conversations near by?
>
> Everyone suspects the cleaning crew, and if you are interested in
> security, you do background checks. Almost no one cares about the vending
> machines.
The vending machine was placed in your office by Homeland Security
because it thinks you are a terrorist and is currently spying on you :-)

-- 
Jerry Feldman 
Boston Linux and Unix
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Re: [Discuss] Discuss Digest, Vol 6, Issue 3

[Jerry Feldman]

On 11/02/2011 01:09 PM, Rich Braun wrote:
> Jerry asked:
>> One of the ladies in the office has an old Mac G3 Macbook ... I was
>> just wondering if there are any OpenSource or freeware standalone
>> wipe CDs et. al.
> A corollary of this question is:  if you have an old Mac, how can you get the
> data off it if the machine is kaput?  My partner has one in the basement and
> when I plugged it in recently (motivated by all the hoopla about Jobs), the
> monitor would not come on.  (It's got a funky connector so ... no other
> compatible monitors in the house.)
>
> This was a Quadra vintage 1994 and what I discovered is that its construction
> is the exact opposite of modern Apple gear.  Expecting to find a hermetically
> sealed enclosure (you know the type--can't even change a battery in these new
> things), what I found was a series of quick-release plastic snaps to hold
> everything together, from the RAM chips to the hard drive to the outer shell.
>
> The hard drive is a standard 50-pin SCSI.  The filesystem is hfs.  Assuming
> you have a SCSI adapter lying around, those things Just Plain Work on Linux so
> after I dd'ed the entire hard drive (160Mb doesn't take long!) I had the whole
> project complete in a matter of 15 minutes or so.  (The files were mostly
> created in an antique Mac version of MS Office so they have to be read by
> Word/PowerPoint '97... I couldn't extract them with open-source office
> software, alas.)
>
> So, Jerry, pop open the hood and dban the drive on a Linux box. ;-)
>
If it were mine, I would, but she is our housemother here in our Regus
Office :-)

-- 
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Re: [Discuss] Security

[markw]

> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 1:10 PM,   wrote:
>> At my work, here are a few vending machines. One of these machines has a
>> nice little antenna on it. Presumably, it communicates via cellular
>> network to the vendor in order to report on usage and supplies. Yes,
>> good
>> idea. Cool.
>>
>> It occurs to me that this machine, most likely, did not have to go
>> through
>> any vetting. Not only that, I bet the grunts that stock these machines
>> are
>> hired more for strong backs and no criminal record.
>>
>> So, here we have a powered machine with external wireless connectivity
>> on
>> the premises with no actual over site. It is there 24x7, powered!
>>
>> Think of all the cool/evil things you could put in a vending machine
>> with
>> a wireless link. Imagine having direct access to a Linux box in almost
>> any
>> company you want. You could run any software you want. You could have
>> wi-fi too. Could you break the company's wireless security? Could you
>> monitor their wireless communications? Could you eaves drop on
>> conversations near by?
>>
>> Everyone suspects the cleaning crew, and if you are interested in
>> security, you do background checks. Almost no one cares about the
>> vending
>> machines.
>
> There's nothing that device can do to your wilreless network that a
> person with a directional antennae can't already do.  As long as you
> don't plug it into your internal network, you're not worse off.


This is, of curse, true, however, having a powered local presence is a lot
more flexible than having to be local with a directional antennae. In
fact, many buildings are not easily accessible.

>
> As for the eavesdropping, you wouldn't need an obvious antennae for
> that.  There could be a camera or microphone in older vending
> machines, televisions, coffee machines, fridges, ceiling tiles or even
> a cabinet.  These could have less obvious antennas or hey, just have
> the recordings picked up occasionally during maintenance.

Also true, but sort of not the point.
>
> There's an infinite number of things that "could" happen.  You need to
> consider the likelihood and impact of those sorts of attacks.  In most
> cases the likelihood is minimal.  Impact is probably minimal as well
> unless its in the board room.
>

That depends on what you want to learn.


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Re: [Discuss] Security

[markw]

> Every Ethernet device has a unique MAC address. If you document
> every MAC address of all your company's legitimate systems and
> devices, then any unknown MAC address will be a rogue device.
> Tracking them down should then be fairly straightforward.

Little known fact, you can change the mac address in a good number of
devices.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Matt Shields  wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Gregory Boyce 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 1:10 PM,   wrote:
>>> > At my work, here are a few vending machines. One of these machines
>>> has a
>>> > nice little antenna on it. Presumably, it communicates via cellular
>>> > network to the vendor in order to report on usage and supplies. Yes,
>>> good
>>> > idea. Cool.
>>> >
>>> > It occurs to me that this machine, most likely, did not have to go
>>> through
>>> > any vetting. Not only that, I bet the grunts that stock these
>>> machines
>>> are
>>> > hired more for strong backs and no criminal record.
>>> >
>>> > So, here we have a powered machine with external wireless
>>> connectivity on
>>> > the premises with no actual over site. It is there 24x7, powered!
>>> >
>>> > Think of all the cool/evil things you could put in a vending machine
>>> with
>>> > a wireless link. Imagine having direct access to a Linux box in
>>> almost
>>> any
>>> > company you want. You could run any software you want. You could have
>>> > wi-fi too. Could you break the company's wireless security? Could you
>>> > monitor their wireless communications? Could you eaves drop on
>>> > conversations near by?
>>> >
>>> > Everyone suspects the cleaning crew, and if you are interested in
>>> > security, you do background checks. Almost no one cares about the
>>> vending
>>> > machines.
>>>
>>> There's nothing that device can do to your wilreless network that a
>>> person with a directional antennae can't already do.  As long as you
>>> don't plug it into your internal network, you're not worse off.
>>>
>>> As for the eavesdropping, you wouldn't need an obvious antennae for
>>> that.  There could be a camera or microphone in older vending
>>> machines, televisions, coffee machines, fridges, ceiling tiles or even
>>> a cabinet.  These could have less obvious antennas or hey, just have
>>> the recordings picked up occasionally during maintenance.
>>>
>>> There's an infinite number of things that "could" happen.  You need to
>>> consider the likelihood and impact of those sorts of attacks.  In most
>>> cases the likelihood is minimal.  Impact is probably minimal as well
>>> unless its in the board room.
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>>
>> I think his point was more that these "smart" vending machines are
>> becoming
>> more commonplace.  Even these days companies put ethernet jacks in the
>> kitchen, so what *if* someone who was malicious put something inside a
>> vending machine and plugged it into your network.  Or what if it had
>> camera/microphone, most people talk shop even in the kitchen.
>>
>> Speaking of that, I remember a few years ago a company I was at talking
>> about checking ethernet jacks periodically to make sure no devices were
>> plugged in that shouldn't be.
>>
>> Matthew Shields
>> Owner
>> BeanTown Host - Web Hosting, Domain Names, Dedicated Servers,
>> Colocation,
>> Managed Services
>> www.beantownhost.com
>> www.sysadminvalley.com
>> www.jeeprally.com
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>
>
>
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Re: [Discuss] Security

[John Abreau]

Every Ethernet device has a unique MAC address. If you document
every MAC address of all your company's legitimate systems and
devices, then any unknown MAC address will be a rogue device.
Tracking them down should then be fairly straightforward.



On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Matt Shields  wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Gregory Boyce  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 1:10 PM,   wrote:
>> > At my work, here are a few vending machines. One of these machines has a
>> > nice little antenna on it. Presumably, it communicates via cellular
>> > network to the vendor in order to report on usage and supplies. Yes, good
>> > idea. Cool.
>> >
>> > It occurs to me that this machine, most likely, did not have to go
>> through
>> > any vetting. Not only that, I bet the grunts that stock these machines
>> are
>> > hired more for strong backs and no criminal record.
>> >
>> > So, here we have a powered machine with external wireless connectivity on
>> > the premises with no actual over site. It is there 24x7, powered!
>> >
>> > Think of all the cool/evil things you could put in a vending machine with
>> > a wireless link. Imagine having direct access to a Linux box in almost
>> any
>> > company you want. You could run any software you want. You could have
>> > wi-fi too. Could you break the company's wireless security? Could you
>> > monitor their wireless communications? Could you eaves drop on
>> > conversations near by?
>> >
>> > Everyone suspects the cleaning crew, and if you are interested in
>> > security, you do background checks. Almost no one cares about the vending
>> > machines.
>>
>> There's nothing that device can do to your wilreless network that a
>> person with a directional antennae can't already do.  As long as you
>> don't plug it into your internal network, you're not worse off.
>>
>> As for the eavesdropping, you wouldn't need an obvious antennae for
>> that.  There could be a camera or microphone in older vending
>> machines, televisions, coffee machines, fridges, ceiling tiles or even
>> a cabinet.  These could have less obvious antennas or hey, just have
>> the recordings picked up occasionally during maintenance.
>>
>> There's an infinite number of things that "could" happen.  You need to
>> consider the likelihood and impact of those sorts of attacks.  In most
>> cases the likelihood is minimal.  Impact is probably minimal as well
>> unless its in the board room.
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>> Discuss@blu.org
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>>
>
> I think his point was more that these "smart" vending machines are becoming
> more commonplace.  Even these days companies put ethernet jacks in the
> kitchen, so what *if* someone who was malicious put something inside a
> vending machine and plugged it into your network.  Or what if it had
> camera/microphone, most people talk shop even in the kitchen.
>
> Speaking of that, I remember a few years ago a company I was at talking
> about checking ethernet jacks periodically to make sure no devices were
> plugged in that shouldn't be.
>
> Matthew Shields
> Owner
> BeanTown Host - Web Hosting, Domain Names, Dedicated Servers, Colocation,
> Managed Services
> www.beantownhost.com
> www.sysadminvalley.com
> www.jeeprally.com
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Re: [Discuss] Security

[Matt Shields]

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Gregory Boyce  wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 1:10 PM,   wrote:
> > At my work, here are a few vending machines. One of these machines has a
> > nice little antenna on it. Presumably, it communicates via cellular
> > network to the vendor in order to report on usage and supplies. Yes, good
> > idea. Cool.
> >
> > It occurs to me that this machine, most likely, did not have to go
> through
> > any vetting. Not only that, I bet the grunts that stock these machines
> are
> > hired more for strong backs and no criminal record.
> >
> > So, here we have a powered machine with external wireless connectivity on
> > the premises with no actual over site. It is there 24x7, powered!
> >
> > Think of all the cool/evil things you could put in a vending machine with
> > a wireless link. Imagine having direct access to a Linux box in almost
> any
> > company you want. You could run any software you want. You could have
> > wi-fi too. Could you break the company's wireless security? Could you
> > monitor their wireless communications? Could you eaves drop on
> > conversations near by?
> >
> > Everyone suspects the cleaning crew, and if you are interested in
> > security, you do background checks. Almost no one cares about the vending
> > machines.
>
> There's nothing that device can do to your wilreless network that a
> person with a directional antennae can't already do.  As long as you
> don't plug it into your internal network, you're not worse off.
>
> As for the eavesdropping, you wouldn't need an obvious antennae for
> that.  There could be a camera or microphone in older vending
> machines, televisions, coffee machines, fridges, ceiling tiles or even
> a cabinet.  These could have less obvious antennas or hey, just have
> the recordings picked up occasionally during maintenance.
>
> There's an infinite number of things that "could" happen.  You need to
> consider the likelihood and impact of those sorts of attacks.  In most
> cases the likelihood is minimal.  Impact is probably minimal as well
> unless its in the board room.
> ___
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> Discuss@blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

I think his point was more that these "smart" vending machines are becoming
more commonplace.  Even these days companies put ethernet jacks in the
kitchen, so what *if* someone who was malicious put something inside a
vending machine and plugged it into your network.  Or what if it had
camera/microphone, most people talk shop even in the kitchen.

Speaking of that, I remember a few years ago a company I was at talking
about checking ethernet jacks periodically to make sure no devices were
plugged in that shouldn't be.

Matthew Shields
Owner
BeanTown Host - Web Hosting, Domain Names, Dedicated Servers, Colocation,
Managed Services
www.beantownhost.com
www.sysadminvalley.com
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[Discuss] NFS client difference between Solaris and Linux

[Jerry Natowitz]

I work with a number of Linux systems (Fedora 12) and Solaris systems (8 and 
10).  I want to be able to monitor the status of NFS mounts - sometimes systems 
are taken down while another system is actively using an NFS export from that 
system.

While writing a script to monitor the health of the NFS mounts on a system, I 
discovered that the following shell constructs work differently in Linux and 
Solaris 10 (haven't looked at Solaris 8 yet):

csh:
if ( -d /home/foo ) echo foo
if ( -e /home/foo ) echo foo
if ( ! -d /home/foo ) echo no foo
if ( ! -e /home/foo ) echo no foo


sh/bash:
[ -d /home/foo ] && echo foo
[ -d /home/foo ] || echo no foo

On Linux, the commands will cause the system to attempt to make the NFS mount, 
and return the status of that mount.  If the server is offline, the mount 
attempt does not hang.

On Solaris, the commands will check to see if /home/foo is defined in 
/etc/auto_home and return the status of that lookup.  No mount is attempted, so 
that 

/home is defined the same on both systems:
/home   /etc/auto.home  -nobrowse,retry=3,suid

If I use this test:
[ -f /home/foo/. ]  || echo foo

Linux continues to work as before.  Solaris does actually attempt the mounts, 
but if the server is offline, the mount attempt hangs.

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Re: [Discuss] Security

[Gregory Boyce]

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 1:10 PM,   wrote:
> At my work, here are a few vending machines. One of these machines has a
> nice little antenna on it. Presumably, it communicates via cellular
> network to the vendor in order to report on usage and supplies. Yes, good
> idea. Cool.
>
> It occurs to me that this machine, most likely, did not have to go through
> any vetting. Not only that, I bet the grunts that stock these machines are
> hired more for strong backs and no criminal record.
>
> So, here we have a powered machine with external wireless connectivity on
> the premises with no actual over site. It is there 24x7, powered!
>
> Think of all the cool/evil things you could put in a vending machine with
> a wireless link. Imagine having direct access to a Linux box in almost any
> company you want. You could run any software you want. You could have
> wi-fi too. Could you break the company's wireless security? Could you
> monitor their wireless communications? Could you eaves drop on
> conversations near by?
>
> Everyone suspects the cleaning crew, and if you are interested in
> security, you do background checks. Almost no one cares about the vending
> machines.

There's nothing that device can do to your wilreless network that a
person with a directional antennae can't already do.  As long as you
don't plug it into your internal network, you're not worse off.

As for the eavesdropping, you wouldn't need an obvious antennae for
that.  There could be a camera or microphone in older vending
machines, televisions, coffee machines, fridges, ceiling tiles or even
a cabinet.  These could have less obvious antennas or hey, just have
the recordings picked up occasionally during maintenance.

There's an infinite number of things that "could" happen.  You need to
consider the likelihood and impact of those sorts of attacks.  In most
cases the likelihood is minimal.  Impact is probably minimal as well
unless its in the board room.
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[Discuss] Security

[markw]

At my work, here are a few vending machines. One of these machines has a
nice little antenna on it. Presumably, it communicates via cellular
network to the vendor in order to report on usage and supplies. Yes, good
idea. Cool.

It occurs to me that this machine, most likely, did not have to go through
any vetting. Not only that, I bet the grunts that stock these machines are
hired more for strong backs and no criminal record.

So, here we have a powered machine with external wireless connectivity on
the premises with no actual over site. It is there 24x7, powered!

Think of all the cool/evil things you could put in a vending machine with
a wireless link. Imagine having direct access to a Linux box in almost any
company you want. You could run any software you want. You could have
wi-fi too. Could you break the company's wireless security? Could you
monitor their wireless communications? Could you eaves drop on
conversations near by?

Everyone suspects the cleaning crew, and if you are interested in
security, you do background checks. Almost no one cares about the vending
machines.

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Re: [Discuss] Discuss Digest, Vol 6, Issue 3

[Rich Braun]

Jerry asked:
> One of the ladies in the office has an old Mac G3 Macbook ... I was
> just wondering if there are any OpenSource or freeware standalone
> wipe CDs et. al.

A corollary of this question is:  if you have an old Mac, how can you get the
data off it if the machine is kaput?  My partner has one in the basement and
when I plugged it in recently (motivated by all the hoopla about Jobs), the
monitor would not come on.  (It's got a funky connector so ... no other
compatible monitors in the house.)

This was a Quadra vintage 1994 and what I discovered is that its construction
is the exact opposite of modern Apple gear.  Expecting to find a hermetically
sealed enclosure (you know the type--can't even change a battery in these new
things), what I found was a series of quick-release plastic snaps to hold
everything together, from the RAM chips to the hard drive to the outer shell.

The hard drive is a standard 50-pin SCSI.  The filesystem is hfs.  Assuming
you have a SCSI adapter lying around, those things Just Plain Work on Linux so
after I dd'ed the entire hard drive (160Mb doesn't take long!) I had the whole
project complete in a matter of 15 minutes or so.  (The files were mostly
created in an antique Mac version of MS Office so they have to be read by
Word/PowerPoint '97... I couldn't extract them with open-source office
software, alas.)

So, Jerry, pop open the hood and dban the drive on a Linux box. ;-)

-rich


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Re: [Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?

[Ricker, William]

> >So does anyone want to explain the difference between DB and DA?

> In theory, DB is 25 pin, DA is 15 pin.   
> In practice anything "D sized" is called DB: DB9 (serial), DB15 (VGA, three 
> rows), etc.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-sub 

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Re: [Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?

[Ben Eisenbraun]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 09:37:22AM -0700, Dan Kressin wrote:
> So does anyone want to explain the difference between DB and DA?

More than you want to know:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-subminiature

-ben

--
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much else in life matters.  it is not what happens to people that is
significant, but what they think happens to them.
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Re: [Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?

[Jerry Natowitz]

In theory, DB is 25 pin, DA is 15 pin.   In practice anything "D sized" is 
called DB: DB9 (serial), DB15 (VGA, three rows), etc.


 Original message 
>Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 09:37:22 -0700 (PDT)
>From: discuss-bounces+j.natowitz=rcn@blu.org (on behalf of Dan Kressin 
>)
>Subject: Re: [Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?  
>To: "Ricker, William" ,BLU Discuss 
>
>Ferrites, that's it!  The ones on this cable actually appear very plastic and 
>light weight, and are not snap-on.
>
>In any case, I have to apologize for the unintentional misinformation.  The 
>Centronics end is actually 36-pin, and I had a vivid "picture memory" of its 
>purpose this morning.  It connected the printer to My First Computer, a Laser 
>128 (Apple IIe/IIc clone).  Funny how memory works.. I can totally picture the 
>cable running through the old computer desk, etc..
>
>So does anyone want to explain the difference between DB and DA?
>
>
>
>
>>
>>From: "Ricker, William" 
>>To: Dan Kressin ; BLU Discuss 
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 11:23 AM
>>Subject: RE: [Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?
>>
>>>  Ribbon cable w/ two (the name escapes me ..) "ring things" to usually used 
>>>to fight inductance.. 
>>
>>Snap-on Ferrite donuts actually *add* inductance, which rounds the corners of 
>>square wave digital signals, to prevent interference (both by and to) and/or 
>>induced spikes from lightning EMP. They come in a variety of specs which 
>>attenuate into progressively lower frequencies. Use the wrong one and you'll 
>>attenuate the desired signal too ! 
>>
>>(One more pedantic than I might object that fighting interference is fighting 
>>*mutual* inductance, but that's not a measurable inductance outside of 
>>cross-talk range.)
>>
>>Yes the DA-15 was used as Game/MIDI port on early IBM PC ISA sound cards. But 
>>the normal MIDI adapter cable would have been DA-15 to pair DIN-5 (or XLR3). 
>>Since the game port was re-used to drive all sorts of things, that's a 
>>possible origin, as are any custom frobistats. The C-50 / CN-50 was abused as 
>>an easy expansion interface for lots of pre-miniaturization devices -- it was 
>>originally a family or range of telco analog connectors for twisted pair 
>>snakes, eg multi-line phones & PBX to punchblock cabling, that was adopted 
>>for printers, re-adopted for SCSI-1, because it was available relatively 
>>cheap due to volume of telco use. As the RJ series has been adopted more 
>>recently. The C-36 had obscure computer uses, not sure if larger sizes were 
>>ever digitally 'appropriated'.
>>
>>Bill @ $DayJob
>>
>>
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Re: [Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?

[Dan Kressin]

Ferrites, that's it!  The ones on this cable actually appear very plastic and 
light weight, and are not snap-on.

In any case, I have to apologize for the unintentional misinformation.  The 
Centronics end is actually 36-pin, and I had a vivid "picture memory" of its 
purpose this morning.  It connected the printer to My First Computer, a Laser 
128 (Apple IIe/IIc clone).  Funny how memory works.. I can totally picture the 
cable running through the old computer desk, etc..

So does anyone want to explain the difference between DB and DA?




>
>From: "Ricker, William" 
>To: Dan Kressin ; BLU Discuss 
>Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 11:23 AM
>Subject: RE: [Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?
>
>>  Ribbon cable w/ two (the name escapes me ..) "ring things" to usually used 
>>to fight inductance.. 
>
>Snap-on Ferrite donuts actually *add* inductance, which rounds the corners of 
>square wave digital signals, to prevent interference (both by and to) and/or 
>induced spikes from lightning EMP. They come in a variety of specs which 
>attenuate into progressively lower frequencies. Use the wrong one and you'll 
>attenuate the desired signal too ! 
>
>(One more pedantic than I might object that fighting interference is fighting 
>*mutual* inductance, but that's not a measurable inductance outside of 
>cross-talk range.)
>
>Yes the DA-15 was used as Game/MIDI port on early IBM PC ISA sound cards. But 
>the normal MIDI adapter cable would have been DA-15 to pair DIN-5 (or XLR3). 
>Since the game port was re-used to drive all sorts of things, that's a 
>possible origin, as are any custom frobistats. The C-50 / CN-50 was abused as 
>an easy expansion interface for lots of pre-miniaturization devices -- it was 
>originally a family or range of telco analog connectors for twisted pair 
>snakes, eg multi-line phones & PBX to punchblock cabling, that was adopted for 
>printers, re-adopted for SCSI-1, because it was available relatively cheap due 
>to volume of telco use. As the RJ series has been adopted more recently. The 
>C-36 had obscure computer uses, not sure if larger sizes were ever digitally 
>'appropriated'.
>
>Bill @ $DayJob
>
>
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Re: [Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?

[Jerry Natowitz]

Chipcom  had a series of telco ethernet modules that were part of the ONline 
hub product line.  They supported either 12 or 24 ports, and some modules 
supported fault-tolerant switchover.

Here is a description of during the 3Com years, when ONline was renamed 
"CoreBuilder 5000"

The CoreBuilder 5000 Ethernet 24-Port Module is an IEEE 802.3
repeater module that complies with the 10BASE-T standard. It connects
up to 24 devices (PCs, terminals, printers, modems, etc.) to the
CoreBuilder 5000 hub. Two 50-pin Telco-type connectors connect to
24 10BASE-T-compliant ports using 25-pair 10BASE-T cables or 12-leg
"hydra" cables.

 Original message 
>Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 11:23:03 -0400
>From: discuss-bounces+j.natowitz=rcn@blu.org (on behalf of "Ricker, 
>William" )
>Subject: Re: [Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?  
>To: Dan Kressin ,BLU Discuss 
>
>>  Ribbon cable w/ two (the name escapes me ..) "ring things" to usually used 
>>to fight inductance.. 
>
>Snap-on Ferrite donuts actually *add* inductance, which rounds the corners of 
>square wave digital signals, to prevent interference (both by and to) and/or 
>induced spikes from lightning EMP. They come in a variety of specs which 
>attenuate into progressively lower frequencies. Use the wrong one and you'll 
>attenuate the desired signal too ! 
>
>(One more pedantic than I might object that fighting interference is fighting 
>*mutual* inductance, but that's not a measurable inductance outside of 
>cross-talk range.)
>
>Yes the DA-15 was used as Game/MIDI port on early IBM PC ISA sound cards. But 
>the normal MIDI adapter cable would have been DA-15 to pair DIN-5 (or XLR3). 
>Since the game port was re-used to drive all sorts of things, that's a 
>possible origin, as are any custom frobistats. The C-50 / CN-50 was abused as 
>an easy expansion interface for lots of pre-miniaturization devices -- it was 
>originally a family or range of telco analog connectors for twisted pair 
>snakes, eg multi-line phones & PBX to punchblock cabling, that was adopted for 
>printers, re-adopted for SCSI-1, because it was available relatively cheap due 
>to volume of telco use. As the RJ series has been adopted more recently. The 
>C-36 had obscure computer uses, not sure if larger sizes were ever digitally 
>'appropriated'.
>
>Bill @ $DayJob
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Re: [Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?

[Ricker, William]

>  Ribbon cable w/ two (the name escapes me ..) "ring things" to usually used 
>to fight inductance.. 

Snap-on Ferrite donuts actually *add* inductance, which rounds the corners of 
square wave digital signals, to prevent interference (both by and to) and/or 
induced spikes from lightning EMP. They come in a variety of specs which 
attenuate into progressively lower frequencies. Use the wrong one and you'll 
attenuate the desired signal too ! 

(One more pedantic than I might object that fighting interference is fighting 
*mutual* inductance, but that's not a measurable inductance outside of 
cross-talk range.)

Yes the DA-15 was used as Game/MIDI port on early IBM PC ISA sound cards. But 
the normal MIDI adapter cable would have been DA-15 to pair DIN-5 (or XLR3). 
Since the game port was re-used to drive all sorts of things, that's a possible 
origin, as are any custom frobistats. The C-50 / CN-50 was abused as an easy 
expansion interface for lots of pre-miniaturization devices -- it was 
originally a family or range of telco analog connectors for twisted pair 
snakes, eg multi-line phones & PBX to punchblock cabling, that was adopted for 
printers, re-adopted for SCSI-1, because it was available relatively cheap due 
to volume of telco use. As the RJ series has been adopted more recently. The 
C-36 had obscure computer uses, not sure if larger sizes were ever digitally 
'appropriated'.

Bill @ $DayJob
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Re: [Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?

[Jack Coats]

Is that what was used on old sound cards for MIDI interface?  Not that
that is it, but it seems to be about right.
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Re: [Discuss] LVM Snapshot Wrapup

[David Miller]

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 11:30 PM,  wrote:

> In 2010, Fedora Core was planning to use Btrfs as its file system, but
> abandoned plans when the support tools were not up to spec.
>

Sorry Mark you're getting this message twice didn't reply to the list on
the first one.  Stupid new Gmail interface didn't default to reply to all.

Yeah Fedora's problem was that there isn't a fsck utility.  Which is kind
of odd b/c with a COW fully check summed file system that stores data in
multiple places for redundancy the actual use case for a fsck utility
doesn't seem to be there.  But just this week the scrub utility was
released which is part of the fsck work that's going on.  So I think we are
a couple of months away from BTRFS having all the user space tools
necessary to get included in a major distro as the default file system.

--
David
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Re: [Discuss] [OT] [Mac related] Wiping an old Mac

[Chris O'Connell]

Sorry guys, I meant OSX, not iOS... Ooops.


On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 10:15 AM, Jerry Feldman  wrote:

> On 11/02/2011 09:56 AM, Edward Ned Harvey wrote:
> >> From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss-
> >> bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Feldman
> >>
> >> One of the ladies in the office has an old Mac G3 Macbook that she wants
> >> to donate. But I always prefer that people wipe their drives first. For
> >> PC stuff, I use the Ultimate Boot CD. I was just wondering if there are
> >> any OpenSource or freeware standalone wipe CDs et. al.
> > The OSX installation disc.  At the first screen, when most people would
> > click "Next," you can instead go to the File menu, Disk Utility, and
> Erase
> > Disk.  (With option for secure erase.)
> >
> > 'Course, ability to do that is dependent on the ability to find the
> > installation disk.
> >
> > Another option:  during power on, hold the "T" key.  The mac will enter
> > "target disk mode," so you connect a firewire cable to any other
> computer,
> > the mac has become a dumb external disk enclosure.  So you're able to use
> > any other computer with a firewire port to erase your mac.
> >
> >
> This is not an OSX Mac
>
> --
> Jerry Feldman 
> Boston Linux and Unix
> PGP key id:3BC1EB90
> PGP Key fingerprint: 49E2 C52A FC5A A31F 8D66  C0AF 7CEA 30FC 3BC1 EB90
>
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Re: [Discuss] [OT] [Mac related] Wiping an old Mac

[Jerry Feldman]

On 11/02/2011 09:56 AM, Edward Ned Harvey wrote:
>> From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss-
>> bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Feldman
>>
>> One of the ladies in the office has an old Mac G3 Macbook that she wants
>> to donate. But I always prefer that people wipe their drives first. For
>> PC stuff, I use the Ultimate Boot CD. I was just wondering if there are
>> any OpenSource or freeware standalone wipe CDs et. al.
> The OSX installation disc.  At the first screen, when most people would
> click "Next," you can instead go to the File menu, Disk Utility, and Erase
> Disk.  (With option for secure erase.)
>
> 'Course, ability to do that is dependent on the ability to find the
> installation disk.
>
> Another option:  during power on, hold the "T" key.  The mac will enter
> "target disk mode," so you connect a firewire cable to any other computer,
> the mac has become a dumb external disk enclosure.  So you're able to use
> any other computer with a firewire port to erase your mac.
>
>
This is not an OSX Mac

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Re: [Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?

[Jerry Natowitz]

Technically that connector is a DA15, not a DB15.  I am most familiar with 
their use in ethernet AUI (Attachment Unit Interface).  They usually had a 
sliding latch for connecting rather than screws.  They thankfully died out in 
the 90s when fast ethernet standardized on RJ45.

The 50 pin centronics is an RJ21 Telco connector, or it could be a SCSI-1 
connector.

 Original message 
>Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 18:27:38 -0700 (PDT)
>From: discuss-bounces+j.natowitz=rcn@blu.org (on behalf of Dan Kressin 
>)
>Subject: [Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?  
>To: BLU Discuss 
>
>Anybody recognize this cable configuration?  Male DB15 (two rows - 8/7) to 
>50pin Centronics.  Ribbon cable w/ two (the name escapes me ..) "ring things" 
>to usually used to fight inductance..  The only DB15 connectors I'm familiar 
>with are for old Mac monitors, PC joysticks, and.. well I guess that's it.  
>Serial would have been 9 or 25..
>
>
>Found in a box along with my old Panasonic KX-P1091i dot matrix noise maker 
>and the 50pin Centronics to 25 pin parallel cable to hook it up.
>
>Oh, and if anyone wants the printer, it probably still works if you can find a 
>cartrige!  (I'd be willing to haul it to the next BLU meeting, or available 
>for pick-up in Chelmsford.)  I even have a small quantity of colored form-feed 
>paper.
>
>
>-Dan, who's cleaning his attic and building a nice pile for Best Buy to 
>recycle..
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Re: [Discuss] [OT] [Mac related] Wiping an old Mac

[Jerry Feldman]

Thanks Chris.

On 11/02/2011 09:45 AM, Chris O'Connell wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> Any Apple iOS CD that can be booted from has the Disk Utility on it.
>  This utility allows for a secure wipe, simple erase or format.  To
> access the utility boot from the CD and select Disk Utility from the
> Tools (or Utilities) drop down menu on the top of the screen.
>
> Chris
>
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 8:51 AM, Jerry Feldman  > wrote:
>
> One of the ladies in the office has an old Mac G3 Macbook that she
> wants
> to donate. But I always prefer that people wipe their drives
> first. For
> PC stuff, I use the Ultimate Boot CD. I was just wondering if
> there are
> any OpenSource or freeware standalone wipe CDs et. al.
>

-- 
Jerry Feldman 
Boston Linux and Unix
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Re: [Discuss] [OT] [Mac related] Wiping an old Mac

[Edward Ned Harvey]

> From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss-
> bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Feldman
> 
> One of the ladies in the office has an old Mac G3 Macbook that she wants
> to donate. But I always prefer that people wipe their drives first. For
> PC stuff, I use the Ultimate Boot CD. I was just wondering if there are
> any OpenSource or freeware standalone wipe CDs et. al.

The OSX installation disc.  At the first screen, when most people would
click "Next," you can instead go to the File menu, Disk Utility, and Erase
Disk.  (With option for secure erase.)

'Course, ability to do that is dependent on the ability to find the
installation disk.

Another option:  during power on, hold the "T" key.  The mac will enter
"target disk mode," so you connect a firewire cable to any other computer,
the mac has become a dumb external disk enclosure.  So you're able to use
any other computer with a firewire port to erase your mac.

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Re: [Discuss] [OT] [Mac related] Wiping an old Mac

[Chris O'Connell]

Jerry,

Any Apple iOS CD that can be booted from has the Disk Utility on it.  This
utility allows for a secure wipe, simple erase or format.  To access the
utility boot from the CD and select Disk Utility from the Tools (or
Utilities) drop down menu on the top of the screen.

Chris

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 8:51 AM, Jerry Feldman  wrote:

> One of the ladies in the office has an old Mac G3 Macbook that she wants
> to donate. But I always prefer that people wipe their drives first. For
> PC stuff, I use the Ultimate Boot CD. I was just wondering if there are
> any OpenSource or freeware standalone wipe CDs et. al.
>
> --
> Jerry Feldman 
> Boston Linux and Unix
> PGP key id:3BC1EB90
> PGP Key fingerprint: 49E2 C52A FC5A A31F 8D66  C0AF 7CEA 30FC 3BC1 EB90
>
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Re: [Discuss] Real SATA RAID controllers?

[Richard Pieri]

On Nov 1, 2011, at 2:34 PM, ma...@mohawksoft.com wrote:
> 
> I'm looking for a low cost "real" raid controller. Most low cost
> controllers < $100, aren't really raid controllers, they are extra sata
> ports and a raid driver requireing the actual "raid" operation handled by
> the host computer.

Yeah, see, having an actual RAID controller on board costs money.  For the kind 
of money you're looking to spend you are going to be stuck with a JBOD 
controller and using the Linux software RAID to do the replication.

If you can budget up to $200 then I recommend 3Ware's controllers.  Real RAID, 
reliable kit, good tools.

--Rich P.

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[Discuss] [OT] [Mac related] Wiping an old Mac

[Jerry Feldman]

One of the ladies in the office has an old Mac G3 Macbook that she wants
to donate. But I always prefer that people wipe their drives first. For
PC stuff, I use the Ultimate Boot CD. I was just wondering if there are
any OpenSource or freeware standalone wipe CDs et. al.

-- 
Jerry Feldman 
Boston Linux and Unix
PGP key id:3BC1EB90 
PGP Key fingerprint: 49E2 C52A FC5A A31F 8D66  C0AF 7CEA 30FC 3BC1 EB90

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Re: [Discuss] LVM Snapshot Wrapup

[markw]

>> From: ma...@mohawksoft.com [mailto:ma...@mohawksoft.com]
>>
>> That license issue is a real issue for a business. Besides that, storage
>> is a commodity. I think the market for something that is billed as
>> storage
>> is pretty much saturated.
>
> I just want to be sure this is clear - there is no license issue, unless
> you
> want to run zfs directly on linux.  There is no problem, even for a
> business, if you're running zfs on solaris/openindiana/freebsd or any
> other
> compatible OS, and sharing that storage (iscsi, nfs, whatever) to any
> other
> clients, such as linux or whatever.  You're not trying to talk crazy talk
> or
> fud, are you?  It sounds strangely confused...  The cddl/gpl license
> incompatibility thing is not an issue for either an individual or business
> who is using it internally and not distributing it.  And there is no
> difference between being a business or an individual or anything else -
> it's
> all the same, and must abide by the same rules either way.

No, I have not been trying to be engaged in "FUD." For what I want to do,
well actually the product I envision, enlists a common set of
functionality available in LVM2, ZFS, and Btrfs, and pretty much builds on
Linux. If push comes to shove I could use FreeBSD, but I don't like the
lack of hardware support. Unless I am mistaken, Linux has surpassed
FreeBSD in overall performance. Lastly, I can use "RedHat" or some other
supported Linux as part of the sales pitch if needed.

>
> If you're talking about doing snapshots / backups / whatever based on LVM
> and billing it as something other than storage or backups, I'd be very
> curious just what on earth you are talking about, or what non-saturated
> market you're thinking about.

Well, LOL, come on, that's the point, right?

As a teaser, think of it this way, yes, disk storage is ridiculously
cheap. Its like, what, $100 for a terrabyte? $150 for 2TB? To what end?
Best case transfer rate is 160MByte/Second with available hardware. Do the
math on a full backup. Transfer speeds have not increased proportionally
with media size.

What's the point of all that data? For the data to be worth anything it
must be durable for as long as it is needed. My bet is that 90% of all
data is worthless, yet we treat all data equally. There is a continuity in
classes of data ranging from data that must be absolutely durable to data
that is used once and abandoned.


>
>
>> >> Btrfs:
>> >> Doesn't have a completely functional fsck yet, and still has
> performance
>> >> issues. It is still not considered "stable" yet with regard to the
>> >> kernel.
>> >
>> > Are you trying to solve a problem for yourself, or trying to create a
> new
>> > product for general use by people on the internet at large?  If it's a
>> > general product you're planning to invent ... the "not stable yet"
>> > argument
>> > against btrfs won't hold water for long.  It barely holds water now,
>> as
>> > people are starting to deploy btrfs in production, and btrfs is being
>> > included (but not enabled by default) in most major distributions.
>>
>> It has been well over a year since it was rejected by RedHat because of
>> the issue and it still does not have one.
>
> I don't understand your use of pronouns in that sentence...  What was
> rejected by redhat?  What issue?  What still does not have one of what?

In 2010, Fedora Core was planning to use Btrfs as its file system, but
abandoned plans when the support tools were not up to spec.
>
>


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Re: [Discuss] LVM Snapshot Wrapup

[Edward Ned Harvey]

> From: ma...@mohawksoft.com [mailto:ma...@mohawksoft.com]
>
> That license issue is a real issue for a business. Besides that, storage
> is a commodity. I think the market for something that is billed as storage
> is pretty much saturated.

I just want to be sure this is clear - there is no license issue, unless you
want to run zfs directly on linux.  There is no problem, even for a
business, if you're running zfs on solaris/openindiana/freebsd or any other
compatible OS, and sharing that storage (iscsi, nfs, whatever) to any other
clients, such as linux or whatever.  You're not trying to talk crazy talk or
fud, are you?  It sounds strangely confused...  The cddl/gpl license
incompatibility thing is not an issue for either an individual or business
who is using it internally and not distributing it.  And there is no
difference between being a business or an individual or anything else - it's
all the same, and must abide by the same rules either way.

If you're talking about doing snapshots / backups / whatever based on LVM
and billing it as something other than storage or backups, I'd be very
curious just what on earth you are talking about, or what non-saturated
market you're thinking about.


> >> Btrfs:
> >> Doesn't have a completely functional fsck yet, and still has
performance
> >> issues. It is still not considered "stable" yet with regard to the
> >> kernel.
> >
> > Are you trying to solve a problem for yourself, or trying to create a
new
> > product for general use by people on the internet at large?  If it's a
> > general product you're planning to invent ... the "not stable yet"
> > argument
> > against btrfs won't hold water for long.  It barely holds water now, as
> > people are starting to deploy btrfs in production, and btrfs is being
> > included (but not enabled by default) in most major distributions.
> 
> It has been well over a year since it was rejected by RedHat because of
> the issue and it still does not have one.

I don't understand your use of pronouns in that sentence...  What was
rejected by redhat?  What issue?  What still does not have one of what?

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[Discuss] OT: what is this cable for?

[Dan Kressin]

Anybody recognize this cable configuration?  Male DB15 (two rows - 8/7) to 
50pin Centronics.  Ribbon cable w/ two (the name escapes me ..) "ring things" 
to usually used to fight inductance..  The only DB15 connectors I'm familiar 
with are for old Mac monitors, PC joysticks, and.. well I guess that's it.  
Serial would have been 9 or 25..


Found in a box along with my old Panasonic KX-P1091i dot matrix noise maker and 
the 50pin Centronics to 25 pin parallel cable to hook it up.

Oh, and if anyone wants the printer, it probably still works if you can find a 
cartrige!  (I'd be willing to haul it to the next BLU meeting, or available for 
pick-up in Chelmsford.)  I even have a small quantity of colored form-feed 
paper.


-Dan, who's cleaning his attic and building a nice pile for Best Buy to 
recycle..
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Re: [Discuss] LVM Snapshot Wrapup

[markw]

>> From: ma...@mohawksoft.com [mailto:ma...@mohawksoft.com]
>>
>> >> From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss-
>> >> bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of
>> >>
>> >> ZFS has license issues.
>> >> Btrfs not considered "stable" yet.
>> >
>> > I don't recall you ever expanding into what you mean by saying those 2
>> > things.
>> >
>> ZFS:
>> http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/06/uptake-of-native-linux-
>> zfs-port-hampered-by-license-conflict.ars
>
> What about solaris/openindiana/freebsd or whatever instead of linux?  If
> you're trying to solve a specific design requirement - I am a fan of
> separating the storage from the machine.  Use solaris to manage my storage
> and distribute it to the linux clients.  If you're trying to solve the
> general case problem, creating more optional solutions for any random
> people
> out there who need storage managed by linux for any random reason, then
> the
> ZFS license conflict (which is only part of the real problem) is a real
> obstacle to widespread usage of ZFS in linux.

That license issue is a real issue for a business. Besides that, storage
is a commodity. I think the market for something that is billed as storage
is pretty much saturated.

While you can say that anything you can run on Linux you can run on
FreeBSD is basically true, but there is better hardware support with
Linux.

While I have a day job, I am working on an idea. It is not "storage" per
se' but it is heavily dependent on flexible storage.


>
> So I respect the "ZFS has license issues" statement only in the context of
> running on linux directly.

Which, if you want to run Linux, is a problem.


>
>
>> Btrfs:
>> Doesn't have a completely functional fsck yet, and still has performance
>> issues. It is still not considered "stable" yet with regard to the
>> kernel.
>
> Are you trying to solve a problem for yourself, or trying to create a new
> product for general use by people on the internet at large?  If it's a
> general product you're planning to invent ... the "not stable yet"
> argument
> against btrfs won't hold water for long.  It barely holds water now, as
> people are starting to deploy btrfs in production, and btrfs is being
> included (but not enabled by default) in most major distributions.

It has been well over a year since it was rejected by RedHat because of
the issue and it still does not have one.

>
> You have to consider the time and momentum that btrfs has, versus the time
> necessary to do something else, and the momentum there...

There seems to be a lot of hype, but I feel it is subsiding and I see
little actual movement in performance and completion. While it would be
very premature to predict collapse, I don't think caution at this juncture
is unreasonable. When it is in the kernel and considered stable, I'll
consider it. When it has been stable for a year or so and the default file
system for a big Linux distro, I think it would be safe to use.





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Re: [Discuss] LVM Snapshot Wrapup

[Edward Ned Harvey]

> From: ma...@mohawksoft.com [mailto:ma...@mohawksoft.com]
> 
> >> From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss-
> >> bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of
> >>
> >> ZFS has license issues.
> >> Btrfs not considered "stable" yet.
> >
> > I don't recall you ever expanding into what you mean by saying those 2
> > things.
> >
> ZFS:
> http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/06/uptake-of-native-linux-
> zfs-port-hampered-by-license-conflict.ars

What about solaris/openindiana/freebsd or whatever instead of linux?  If
you're trying to solve a specific design requirement - I am a fan of
separating the storage from the machine.  Use solaris to manage my storage
and distribute it to the linux clients.  If you're trying to solve the
general case problem, creating more optional solutions for any random people
out there who need storage managed by linux for any random reason, then the
ZFS license conflict (which is only part of the real problem) is a real
obstacle to widespread usage of ZFS in linux.

So I respect the "ZFS has license issues" statement only in the context of
running on linux directly.


> Btrfs:
> Doesn't have a completely functional fsck yet, and still has performance
> issues. It is still not considered "stable" yet with regard to the kernel.

Are you trying to solve a problem for yourself, or trying to create a new
product for general use by people on the internet at large?  If it's a
general product you're planning to invent ... the "not stable yet" argument
against btrfs won't hold water for long.  It barely holds water now, as
people are starting to deploy btrfs in production, and btrfs is being
included (but not enabled by default) in most major distributions.

You have to consider the time and momentum that btrfs has, versus the time
necessary to do something else, and the momentum there...

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[Discuss] Real SATA RAID controllers?

[markw]

I'm looking for a low cost "real" raid controller. Most low cost
controllers < $100, aren't really raid controllers, they are extra sata
ports and a raid driver requireing the actual "raid" operation handled by
the host computer.

I'm looking for a, like I said, low cost PCI raid controller that handles
at least RAID 5 (I don't think I need 6 yet).

Anyone know of such a beast?

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