Re: [Discuss] drop box software
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 One comment here regarding e-mail attachments. because email has a general limitation of 7-bit ASCII (now other things like Unicode), attachments must be coded in way to convert 8-bit binary to 7-bits. This is usually done by the base64 method. The bottom line is that transferring files by email is always very inefficient. Not only is the encoded attachment much larger than the actual file itself, email is also a store-and-forward protocol where the email message itself is stored on several servers along the way, where a direct binary transfer only stores the file at the destination. (certainly the packets go through routers). So, if you push a file up to a service such as dropbox and allow others to download it, it is still much better than email. Dropbox not only allows you to share data with your other computers it also allows you to share files with others if you want to allow that. On 08/31/2011 10:21 AM, Stephen Adler wrote: > Boy.. do I feel stupid. I had no idea drop box was basically a > repository on steroids. I thought drop box was a service where I could > upload a 20 gigabyte file and send a URL with a password to a friend so > that he could down load that 20G file, thus working around large file > limits in e-mail attachments. I run a subversion server on my home > system which suffices for me to deal with keeping key files in a network > accessible repository. Any time I hear the word cloud, I cringe... What > happened to "The Grid"? > > So, let me refraise my question, is there any open source packages which > would allow me to upload a file to a web site (my web site) and have it > password protected and I could then e-mail the URL and password to my > friend. I can do this all by hand, with .htaccess files etc, but I would > prefer a nice web service to do it. > > thanks, and sorry for the confusion on my side... > > On Wed, 2011-08-31 at 10:09 -0400, Edward Ned Harvey wrote: >>> From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss- >>> bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Adler >>> >>> I'm getting a bit confused. I thought drop box was a service where one >>> could upload a file, give it a password of some sort, and then you sent >>> the password to someone else who could use it to grab the file. >>> typically needed for large files, (multi-gigabyte) which cannot be >>> e-mailed directly. After some time, the file gets deleted automatically. >>> Does this drop box like systems mentioned use repository in the back >>> end? I would assume it would just dump the file in some directory. >> >> Hey - Weren't you the guy whose OP said you wanted to build your own >> dropbox? But it sounds like you don't really know what dropbox does... So >> ... What is it you're trying to do? >> >> Here's a description of dropbox: >> >> You have a directory on your computer. It's automatically live synced to >> some space in the cloud, which means all your file usage happens on local >> disk, and everything's available both while you're online and offline. So >> everything's fast and reliable, and you can use it while you're travelling. >> Whenever there is a network connection available, it silently performs a >> 2-way sync in the background. >> >> This has a few nice side effects... If you have more than one computer >> connected to the same account, it means those computers are always in sync >> with each other. You edit some file at work, you go home, and you continue >> working. You can throw away your USB drive. It's faster and more reliable >> than using a network file share across a WAN. There is no need to perform >> any manual operations such as "svn commit" and so on. If your computer is >> destroyed, you just join your account again, and it's all restored. So >> people tend to use it for backup purposes too... >> >> You can share a folder with another user. So people use it for >> collaboration. You and your sales force are working on some documents. You >> edit something, and they get it instantly... And vice-versa. You're both >> always up to date. >> >> Since it's all in the cloud, it's trivial for the servers to generate a URL >> to access stuff. But by default there isn't any such URL, you have to >> generate it intentionally. So if you right-click a file in your computer, >> you go to Dropbox / Copy Public URL. And then it will give you a URL you >> can email to someone else. Hence eliminating large attachments in email. >> >> It does versioning. It's compatible with windows & mac & linux & android & >> iphone. You probably will install the client for convenience, but you don't >> need to. You can do all your stuff via web interface if you want. >> (Convenient when you're visiting somebody else's computer.) >> >> I think that's enough of a sales pitch for dropbox. ;-) >> >> There are various other competitors out there --- Box.net, sugarsync, >> spideroak, and a few others. They all have some differentiators, but
Re: [Discuss] drop box software
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 07:39:55PM -0400, Edward Ned Harvey wrote: > > From: Derek Martin [mailto:inva...@pizzashack.org] > > > > I am extremely reticent to house any of my personal data on > > someone else's computers... > > Supposing the data is encrypted, and inaccessible to the 3rd party, do you > still care so much? The data is always accessible to a third party if it is not on my machines or connected to the internet. Encryption is not a panacaea; the devil is in the details. Consider, for just one example, the exploitation of 56-bit SSL encryption. Also it matters when and how the encryption was done, and often with proprietary solutions you don't get to know that sort of thing. So, yes, I still do care so much. :) At a minimum it means one needs to do some research to find out if a particular solution is acceptable. The alternative, doing without, costs very little. I can already make my data available via website, so at most this would be something I did for cool factor or a minimal convenience... There's a gain to be had here, but it's tiny (for me). > > Does sparkleshare require the use of some > > resource I don't control? > > It's currently git in the backend. So you could own your own. I may have a look at this, sounds interesting. > > > I liked ifolder (from a user perspective, not an admin perspective). > But > > > since the implosion of novell, I've decided to forget about it, kiss it > > > goodbye. > > > > Why? It's fully GPLv2. Even if Novell completely goes belly up, or > > decides to take it proprietary, the OSS community can continue to > > support this or a fork of it. > > Just try getting it to work. Fair enough. -- Derek D. Martinhttp://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0xDFBEAD02 -=-=-=-=- This message is posted from an invalid address. Replying to it will result in undeliverable mail due to spam prevention. Sorry for the inconvenience. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] drop box software
On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Stephen Adler wrote: > Boy.. do I feel stupid. I had no idea drop box was basically a > repository on steroids. I thought drop box was a service where I could > upload a 20 gigabyte file and send a URL with a password to a friend so > that he could down load that 20G file, thus working around large file > limits in e-mail attachments. I run a subversion server on my home > system which suffices for me to deal with keeping key files in a network > accessible repository. Any time I hear the word cloud, I cringe... What > happened to "The Grid"? > > So, let me refraise my question, is there any open source packages which > would allow me to upload a file to a web site (my web site) and have it > password protected and I could then e-mail the URL and password to my > friend. I can do this all by hand, with .htaccess files etc, but I would > prefer a nice web service to do it. > > thanks, and sorry for the confusion on my side... > > You can do this. Just have put those files in a folder in your dropbox account. have your friend sign up for dropbox and share that folder with them. While sharing anything that either of you add/delete/edit will be updated on the other person's account as well, but just for the shared folder. Matthew Shields Owner BeanTown Host - Web Hosting, Domain Names, Dedicated Servers, Colocation, Managed Services www.beantownhost.com www.sysadminvalley.com www.jeeprally.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] drop box software
Boy.. do I feel stupid. I had no idea drop box was basically a repository on steroids. I thought drop box was a service where I could upload a 20 gigabyte file and send a URL with a password to a friend so that he could down load that 20G file, thus working around large file limits in e-mail attachments. I run a subversion server on my home system which suffices for me to deal with keeping key files in a network accessible repository. Any time I hear the word cloud, I cringe... What happened to "The Grid"? So, let me refraise my question, is there any open source packages which would allow me to upload a file to a web site (my web site) and have it password protected and I could then e-mail the URL and password to my friend. I can do this all by hand, with .htaccess files etc, but I would prefer a nice web service to do it. thanks, and sorry for the confusion on my side... On Wed, 2011-08-31 at 10:09 -0400, Edward Ned Harvey wrote: > > From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss- > > bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Adler > > > > I'm getting a bit confused. I thought drop box was a service where one > > could upload a file, give it a password of some sort, and then you sent > > the password to someone else who could use it to grab the file. > > typically needed for large files, (multi-gigabyte) which cannot be > > e-mailed directly. After some time, the file gets deleted automatically. > > Does this drop box like systems mentioned use repository in the back > > end? I would assume it would just dump the file in some directory. > > Hey - Weren't you the guy whose OP said you wanted to build your own > dropbox? But it sounds like you don't really know what dropbox does... So > ... What is it you're trying to do? > > Here's a description of dropbox: > > You have a directory on your computer. It's automatically live synced to > some space in the cloud, which means all your file usage happens on local > disk, and everything's available both while you're online and offline. So > everything's fast and reliable, and you can use it while you're travelling. > Whenever there is a network connection available, it silently performs a > 2-way sync in the background. > > This has a few nice side effects... If you have more than one computer > connected to the same account, it means those computers are always in sync > with each other. You edit some file at work, you go home, and you continue > working. You can throw away your USB drive. It's faster and more reliable > than using a network file share across a WAN. There is no need to perform > any manual operations such as "svn commit" and so on. If your computer is > destroyed, you just join your account again, and it's all restored. So > people tend to use it for backup purposes too... > > You can share a folder with another user. So people use it for > collaboration. You and your sales force are working on some documents. You > edit something, and they get it instantly... And vice-versa. You're both > always up to date. > > Since it's all in the cloud, it's trivial for the servers to generate a URL > to access stuff. But by default there isn't any such URL, you have to > generate it intentionally. So if you right-click a file in your computer, > you go to Dropbox / Copy Public URL. And then it will give you a URL you > can email to someone else. Hence eliminating large attachments in email. > > It does versioning. It's compatible with windows & mac & linux & android & > iphone. You probably will install the client for convenience, but you don't > need to. You can do all your stuff via web interface if you want. > (Convenient when you're visiting somebody else's computer.) > > I think that's enough of a sales pitch for dropbox. ;-) > > There are various other competitors out there --- Box.net, sugarsync, > spideroak, and a few others. They all have some differentiators, but very > similar to each other functionally. > > ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] drop box software
> From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss- > bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Adler > > I'm getting a bit confused. I thought drop box was a service where one > could upload a file, give it a password of some sort, and then you sent > the password to someone else who could use it to grab the file. > typically needed for large files, (multi-gigabyte) which cannot be > e-mailed directly. After some time, the file gets deleted automatically. > Does this drop box like systems mentioned use repository in the back > end? I would assume it would just dump the file in some directory. It sounds like what you want is a Build-your-own yousendit. Not dropbox. Yousendit, you upload a file, give it a password (or it assigns one, or something), you send the link to somebody, it makes them confirm their address or something... They download the file, and after some time it gets deleted automatically (if you opted for that feature.) In dropbox, the free account has a total 2G limit (pay for larger box). There is no password, nor verification of recipient when you email a link. No notification that the recipient got it. In fact, if you email a link (which necessitates using the Public folder) then you have granted full copyright to the world at large (read the EULA if you didn't already know this). For these reasons, dropbox is not great for emailing large files... Unless they're not proprietary, not very important. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] drop box software
> From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss- > bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Adler > > I'm getting a bit confused. I thought drop box was a service where one > could upload a file, give it a password of some sort, and then you sent > the password to someone else who could use it to grab the file. > typically needed for large files, (multi-gigabyte) which cannot be > e-mailed directly. After some time, the file gets deleted automatically. > Does this drop box like systems mentioned use repository in the back > end? I would assume it would just dump the file in some directory. Hey - Weren't you the guy whose OP said you wanted to build your own dropbox? But it sounds like you don't really know what dropbox does... So ... What is it you're trying to do? Here's a description of dropbox: You have a directory on your computer. It's automatically live synced to some space in the cloud, which means all your file usage happens on local disk, and everything's available both while you're online and offline. So everything's fast and reliable, and you can use it while you're travelling. Whenever there is a network connection available, it silently performs a 2-way sync in the background. This has a few nice side effects... If you have more than one computer connected to the same account, it means those computers are always in sync with each other. You edit some file at work, you go home, and you continue working. You can throw away your USB drive. It's faster and more reliable than using a network file share across a WAN. There is no need to perform any manual operations such as "svn commit" and so on. If your computer is destroyed, you just join your account again, and it's all restored. So people tend to use it for backup purposes too... You can share a folder with another user. So people use it for collaboration. You and your sales force are working on some documents. You edit something, and they get it instantly... And vice-versa. You're both always up to date. Since it's all in the cloud, it's trivial for the servers to generate a URL to access stuff. But by default there isn't any such URL, you have to generate it intentionally. So if you right-click a file in your computer, you go to Dropbox / Copy Public URL. And then it will give you a URL you can email to someone else. Hence eliminating large attachments in email. It does versioning. It's compatible with windows & mac & linux & android & iphone. You probably will install the client for convenience, but you don't need to. You can do all your stuff via web interface if you want. (Convenient when you're visiting somebody else's computer.) I think that's enough of a sales pitch for dropbox. ;-) There are various other competitors out there --- Box.net, sugarsync, spideroak, and a few others. They all have some differentiators, but very similar to each other functionally. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] drop box software
Thanks, the issue is that I don't want to use a 3rd party system or service to do my drop box file sharing, I want to use my own servers. I have this thing about putting data on a system I don't maintain myself On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 21:00 -0500, Jack Coats wrote: > It has an option for sharing files, but it's primary reason for living > is to be a personal repository available on multiple machines. > > If you want to 'share a file' with someone else, they do not have to > subscribe to Dropbox. Exact directions are avialable on > Dropbox.com ... the basics are, you make a 'public' directory, copy a > file into the directory, the get the 'url' of the file (I haven't > done it for a while). Then you can email the 'url' to as many people > as you want. To make the files private again, get it out of > your 'public directory'. I don't remember if you can specify the name > of the directory or not. > > There are other services that do act like you mention, upload it, it > is shared (password or not), with whomever, and eventually it > is deleted automatically. But this is not Dropbox. > > ><> ... Jack > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Stephen Adler > wrote: > I'm getting a bit confused. I thought drop box was a service > where one could upload a file, give it a password of some > sort, and then you sent the password to someone else who could > use it to grab the file. typically needed for large files, > (multi-gigabyte) which cannot be e-mailed directly. After some > time, the file gets deleted automatically. Does this drop box > like systems mentioned use repository in the back end? I would > assume it would just dump the file in some directory. > > > > ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] drop box software
On 08/30/2011 10:32 AM, Stephen Adler wrote: > Does anyone know of an open source drop box like software I can setup on > my web site? If you want a powerful document repository, I'm using OWL for Agile New England. http://owl.anytimecomm.com/ It's got a great set of features, especially a very powerful authorization system with users and groups. It can version files, lock/unlock, import files bulk in zip files, notify people of changes, etc. And it's FOSS. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] drop box software
It has an option for sharing files, but it's primary reason for living is to be a personal repository available on multiple machines. If you want to 'share a file' with someone else, they do not have to subscribe to Dropbox. Exact directions are avialable on Dropbox.com ... the basics are, you make a 'public' directory, copy a file into the directory, the get the 'url' of the file (I haven't done it for a while). Then you can email the 'url' to as many people as you want. To make the files private again, get it out of your 'public directory'. I don't remember if you can specify the name of the directory or not. There are other services that do act like you mention, upload it, it is shared (password or not), with whomever, and eventually it is deleted automatically. But this is not Dropbox. ><> ... Jack On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Stephen Adler wrote: > I'm getting a bit confused. I thought drop box was a service where one > could upload a file, give it a password of some sort, and then you sent the > password to someone else who could use it to grab the file. typically needed > for large files, (multi-gigabyte) which cannot be e-mailed directly. After > some time, the file gets deleted automatically. Does this drop box like > systems mentioned use repository in the back end? I would assume it would > just dump the file in some directory. > > > ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] drop box software
I'm getting a bit confused. I thought drop box was a service where one could upload a file, give it a password of some sort, and then you sent the password to someone else who could use it to grab the file. typically needed for large files, (multi-gigabyte) which cannot be e-mailed directly. After some time, the file gets deleted automatically. Does this drop box like systems mentioned use repository in the back end? I would assume it would just dump the file in some directory. On 08/30/2011 07:39 PM, Edward Ned Harvey wrote: From: Derek Martin [mailto:inva...@pizzashack.org] I am extremely reticent to house any of my personal data on someone else's computers... Supposing the data is encrypted, and inaccessible to the 3rd party, do you still care so much? Does sparkleshare require the use of some resource I don't control? It's currently git in the backend. So you could own your own. I liked ifolder (from a user perspective, not an admin perspective). But since the implosion of novell, I've decided to forget about it, kiss it goodbye. Why? It's fully GPLv2. Even if Novell completely goes belly up, or decides to take it proprietary, the OSS community can continue to support this or a fork of it. Just try getting it to work. Although it's open source, the amount of work necessary to make it work on *any* platform is daunting... It was meant to run on Suse... And even then, the only way to get it working in less than 2 person days of admin time was to use a full deployment of novell products... edirectory and such. Yes it's possible. No it's not attractive. But maybe someday. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] drop box software
> From: Derek Martin [mailto:inva...@pizzashack.org] > > I am > extremely reticent to house any of my personal data on someone else's > computers... Supposing the data is encrypted, and inaccessible to the 3rd party, do you still care so much? > Does sparkleshare require the use of some > resource I don't control? It's currently git in the backend. So you could own your own. > > I liked ifolder (from a user perspective, not an admin perspective). But > > since the implosion of novell, I've decided to forget about it, kiss it > > goodbye. > > Why? It's fully GPLv2. Even if Novell completely goes belly up, or > decides to take it proprietary, the OSS community can continue to > support this or a fork of it. Just try getting it to work. Although it's open source, the amount of work necessary to make it work on *any* platform is daunting... It was meant to run on Suse... And even then, the only way to get it working in less than 2 person days of admin time was to use a full deployment of novell products... edirectory and such. Yes it's possible. No it's not attractive. But maybe someday. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] drop box software
On Aug 30, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Stephen Adler wrote: > > Does anyone know of an open source drop box like software I can setup on > my web site? Ubuntu One is the closest that you'll find, I think. Sparkleshare has been mentioned again this time around. I tried it earlier this year and found it lacking. Not because it is unfinished. Because it isn't a sync platform. It's a collaboration platform. SpiderOak could get there some day. I for one am not holding my breath. If you don't mind manual sync then try Unison. Open source, stable, mature, reliable. --Rich P. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] drop box software
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 04:20:58PM -0400, Peter Doherty wrote: > I've been using Sparkleshare for a few months now. ... > Also it's git on the backend, so it stores everything twice, once in the > local repo, and once in the working copy. (origin, master? my git vocab > isn't that great) So if you drop 20GB of binaries into Sparkleshare you > use 40GB of local disk. Apropos of mostly nothing, this project looks pretty cool for version control of binaries: http://code.google.com/p/boar/ -ben -- lisp doesn't look any deader than usual to me. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] drop box software
On Aug 30, 2011, at 12:13 , Derek Martin wrote: > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:37:15AM -0400, Edward Ned Harvey wrote: >>> From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss- >>> bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Adler >>> >>> Does anyone know of an open source drop box like software I can setup on >>> my web site? >> >> Nothing that's as good as dropbox. But there is buzz around sparkleshare. >> Not very mature yet. > > I too have always been sort of interested in this idea of a central > repository for all My Stuff such that I could easily and conveniently > get it via whatever computing device I happen to be using. I am > extremely reticent to house any of my personal data on someone else's > computers... Though I have to admit, it's now basically impossible to > avoid in modern society, without not participating in society... and > I've already made concessions like using Android devices. > > Still, I'm not willing to store the bulk of my personal data on > someone else's resources. So for someone like me, applications like > dropbox are non-solutions. Does sparkleshare require the use of some > resource I don't control? > >> I liked ifolder (from a user perspective, not an admin perspective). But >> since the implosion of novell, I've decided to forget about it, kiss it >> goodbye. > > Why? It's fully GPLv2. Even if Novell completely goes belly up, or > decides to take it proprietary, the OSS community can continue to > support this or a fork of it. I've been using Sparkleshare for a few months now. It's not nearly as well polished as dropbox, but for basic stuff, it works okay. It doesn't need any resources you don't control. It does use an IRC server to communicate the hash of the latest commit, but you can pick your own server. Also it's git on the backend, so it stores everything twice, once in the local repo, and once in the working copy. (origin, master? my git vocab isn't that great) So if you drop 20GB of binaries into Sparkleshare you use 40GB of local disk. This is annoying. hbons is working on some other backends. I think it's got some potential, but it's a ways out. I've also used SpiderOak. Dropbox has far and away the most polished UI of any "cloud storage" program I've used. -peter ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] drop box software
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:37:15AM -0400, Edward Ned Harvey wrote: > > From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss- > > bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Adler > > > > Does anyone know of an open source drop box like software I can setup on > > my web site? > > Nothing that's as good as dropbox. But there is buzz around sparkleshare. > Not very mature yet. I too have always been sort of interested in this idea of a central repository for all My Stuff such that I could easily and conveniently get it via whatever computing device I happen to be using. I am extremely reticent to house any of my personal data on someone else's computers... Though I have to admit, it's now basically impossible to avoid in modern society, without not participating in society... and I've already made concessions like using Android devices. Still, I'm not willing to store the bulk of my personal data on someone else's resources. So for someone like me, applications like dropbox are non-solutions. Does sparkleshare require the use of some resource I don't control? > I liked ifolder (from a user perspective, not an admin perspective). But > since the implosion of novell, I've decided to forget about it, kiss it > goodbye. Why? It's fully GPLv2. Even if Novell completely goes belly up, or decides to take it proprietary, the OSS community can continue to support this or a fork of it. -- Derek D. Martinhttp://www.pizzashack.org/ GPG Key ID: 0xDFBEAD02 -=-=-=-=- This message is posted from an invalid address. Replying to it will result in undeliverable mail due to spam prevention. Sorry for the inconvenience. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] drop box software
> From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss- > bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Adler > > Does anyone know of an open source drop box like software I can setup on > my web site? Nothing that's as good as dropbox. But there is buzz around sparkleshare. Not very mature yet. I liked ifolder (from a user perspective, not an admin perspective). But since the implosion of novell, I've decided to forget about it, kiss it goodbye. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[Discuss] drop box software
Does anyone know of an open source drop box like software I can setup on my web site? thanks. Steve. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
