Re: [Discuss] webmin
Bill Bogstad wrote: > I would even argue that we have gone backwards in the Linux world. For > example, it seems like every Linux distribution now hides its boot > time status messages behind a contentless graphical boot image. The > result is that users never have a clue what is going on when their > system is booting. The objective should be to preserve the functionality of the old way, but not necessarily the appearance. The boot progress logs are ugly, not understood by most people being targeted by modern distributions, and only useful in the very rare case of a hardware problem. The important bit of functionality is that there should be a well known way to enable seeing the logs in the event they are needed. (Is hitting the escape key to show the logs universal?) That said, one of the first customizations I make on a new install: RCS file: /etc/default/RCS/grub,v retrieving revision 1.1 retrieving revision 1.2 diff -r1.1 -r1.2 11c11 < GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet splash" --- > GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="" > Put a [GUI] wrapper around the command line tools...and then show the > user of the wrapper exactly what commands/file changes were being > done as a result of their requested configuration change. > > For whatever reason, that idea doesn't seem to have caught on. Linux may fall short of this idea, but it probably comes closer to it than any other popular OS. A high percentage of GUI admin tools on Linux are simply wrappers around command line tools, and the better GUIs even provide log files in documented locations, so you can see what command was executed, and look at the extended error information that the GUI developer didn't have the foresight to capture and present. Modification of config files is definitely a sticky point, and many config file formats don't lend themselves to being modified easily, resulting in GUI tools that simply overwrite whats present. That's bad. This is, in fact, one of the reasons why I stopped using webmin. (That, and it got to be more work to figure out where or how in webmin to do what I wanted than to just read the target program's man page and make direct edits. webmin is like making config changes with mittens on. But I do think it is useful in some circumstances, and I've only briefly encountered it in recent times, and thus can't speak to its current state.) The increased use of config files that are separated out into a collection of files in a directory (i.e. /etc/modprobe.d), where you can put your hand-written customizations in a separate file that won't get clobbered by either GUI tools or the distribution updates, helps. But I'd like to see a defacto standard form around some sort of version control used by wrapper tools when modifying config files. That way you can review what was changed, when, and why. (I use RCS for this on manual changes, and it can come in real handy when I need to merge my customizations into distribution updates, on those programs that still use a single monolithic config file. No reason why this functionality couldn't be integrated into dpkg.) > I understand that we don't want to "scare people > away", but it seems like in the process we are losing out on > educating them as well. If it was truly the case that our computer > system never required human intervention to make them work, then it > wouldn't matter; but it seems unlikely that is going to happen any > time soon. Abstracting away details is inevitable. It's the only way we can deal with ever increasing complexity. A modern computer operator doesn't concern themselves with bits in a register, even though that's still happening dozens of layers below the UI that they are exposed to. I wouldn't put the burden of educating the user on the GUI, but a properly designed GUI should be layered on top of a command line tool or API (Dbus) so that anything the GUI can do can also be done through automation fairly easily, and it should log operations so things the GUI designer didn't anticipate breaking can be resolved. With other OSs you are more likely to encounter GUIs that are complete black boxes - no automation and no insight into what they are doing (or failing to do). -Tom -- Tom Metro Venture Logic, Newton, MA, USA "Enterprise solutions through open source." Professional Profile: http://tmetro.venturelogic.com/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] webmin
On 01/24/2013 03:19 PM, Daniel Feenberg wrote: > > > On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Bill Bogstad wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 2:14 PM, j...@polcari.com >> wrote: >>> The problem I have with GUI administration is if you make a >>> mistake, you never quite know what file got configured incorrectly, >>> then you end up troubleshooting the GUI to find out what to fix. 10 >>> points for open-source. But if you know what you're doing in the >>> first place, it's nice to click once and get it done. >> >> I know it had its detractors (including me), but I think that IBM's >> SMIT for AIX had a good idea.Put a "gui/text-based" wrapper around >> the command line tools/config files and then show the user of the > > GUIs are nice for once a year tasks, but hell on repeated setups, so > it is good to have both. The problem I see with providing both is that > often the GUI writes over the text file, which disables the > command-line/programmable interfac For most tasks I generally use the command line, but I found that for some tasks using the GUI (in this case the RHEL GUIs) saves some time. Mostly I prefer to use chkconfig over the Services GUI, but sometimes if I am coming in via the vSphere console, the GUI might be easier. 90% of the time I use YUM for updates and software installs, but on Debian based systems I'm not all that up on apt-get options. -- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix PGP key id:3BC1EB90 PGP Key fingerprint: 49E2 C52A FC5A A31F 8D66 C0AF 7CEA 30FC 3BC1 EB90 ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] webmin
On 01/24/2013 02:36 PM, Bill Bogstad wrote: > I > would even argue that we have gone backwards in the Linux world. For > example, it seems like every Linux distribution now hides its boot > time status messages behind a contentless graphical boot image. The > result is that users never have a clue what is going on when their > system is booting. I understand that we don't want to "scare people > away", but it seems like in the process we are losing out on educating > them as well. If it was truly the case that our computer system > never required human intervention to make them work, then it wouldn't > matter; but it seems unlikely that is going to happen any time soon. I would agree 100% here. I usually set verbose on the kernel boot lines after installation, but on many distros hitting escape shows the details. On RHEL you have to do a mouse click. -- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix PGP key id:3BC1EB90 PGP Key fingerprint: 49E2 C52A FC5A A31F 8D66 C0AF 7CEA 30FC 3BC1 EB90 ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] webmin
On 1/24/2013 1:49 PM, Mark Woodward wrote: A GUI for this stuff should reduce the need for skilled admins to add/remove users, check logs, or check hard disk status. GUI interfaces have their place: they are handy for routine tasks that change little from one occasion to another. But ... Over time, managers start to believe that GUI-based software can be a substitute for properly trained IT personnel, and at that point, the IT organization starts a downward spiral, as managers chase a deus ex machina that they hope will take the place of competent employees. The first, and most obvious effect, is lessened security: semi-skilled workers will always rely on the cookbook pages that they have used before, and thus they will create all users with the same set of privileges, often including unnecessary authority to access backups, to reset passwords, and other features that their supervisors assume are "harmless" and "convenient" for everyone to have. The downward spiral accelerates as the out-of-their-depth "experts" (who have been set up to fail) find out that they are expected to learn "just enough" about multiple GUI-based software tools to accomplish "just enough" to keep their bosses from looking like fools: and then they start to find problems, such as allocation of gargantuan volumes to what-should-have-been tiny backup sets, just because the GUI doesn't have any provision to compress and chain multiple small files together, or reams of paper wasted because the GUI default for newly-created print queues is to require job-separation sheets on every printout, or even duplicate IP addresses assigned to multiple router interfaces because the managers assumed that the cookie-cutter, reduced-skill-set employees could be given another recipe book that would enable them to do everything the high-priced guys used to. A GUI is nice - sometimes - and for the same reason that a Master Carpenter will use a jig to fit hinges for /some/, but not /all/, doors in a building. Let's face it: It's impossible to cram a Master's expertise and experience into a single set of instructions, and the results are as predictable as the fact that the GUI designers start to modify their software so as to facilitate sales of related business sectors. The problem, in essence, is that what-you-see-is-what-you-get interfaces, if deployed without proper planning, will become what-you-see-is-ALL-you-get. Bill -- Bill Horne 339-364-8487 ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] webmin
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013, Bill Bogstad wrote: On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 2:14 PM, j...@polcari.com wrote: The problem I have with GUI administration is if you make a mistake, you never quite know what file got configured incorrectly, then you end up troubleshooting the GUI to find out what to fix. 10 points for open-source. But if you know what you're doing in the first place, it's nice to click once and get it done. I know it had its detractors (including me), but I think that IBM's SMIT for AIX had a good idea.Put a "gui/text-based" wrapper around the command line tools/config files and then show the user of the GUIs are nice for once a year tasks, but hell on repeated setups, so it is good to have both. The problem I see with providing both is that often the GUI writes over the text file, which disables the command-line/programmable interface. daniel feenberg NBER ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] webmin
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:36:07 -0500 Bill Bogstad wrote: > I know it had its detractors (including me), but I think that IBM's > SMIT for AIX had a good idea. SMIT's issues aren't so much SMIT's issues as they are AIX's issues. AIX has a big iron mainframe philosophy to it that doesn't make much sense to the general Unix world. It's internally consistent which makes AIX much nicer to administer than other UNIXes and Unixalikes if you can wrap your brane around that mainframe design. If you can't (or won't) accept AIX's different way of doing things then it'll be a bear to manage. IRIX is on the other side of it. Not only does IRIX go out of its way to hide the command line, many sysadminly tasks cannot be performed from the command line. SGI never implemented command line tools for those tasks (some of the disk management tools are what I recall from IRIX but there were others). I really didn't like working on SGI kit. -- Rich P. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] webmin
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 2:14 PM, j...@polcari.com wrote: > The problem I have with GUI administration is if you make a mistake, you > never quite know what file got configured incorrectly, then you end up > troubleshooting the GUI to find out what to fix. 10 points for open-source. > But if you know what you're doing in the first place, it's nice to click once > and get it done. I know it had its detractors (including me), but I think that IBM's SMIT for AIX had a good idea.Put a "gui/text-based" wrapper around the command line tools/config files and then show the user of the wrapper exactly what commands/file changes were being done as a result of their requested configuration change. (Or at least that is how I vaguely remember how SMIT worked.) Such a wrapper both allows novice admins to get things done while (hopefully) teaching them something about what is really happening under the covers. For whatever reason, that idea doesn't seem to have caught on. I would even argue that we have gone backwards in the Linux world. For example, it seems like every Linux distribution now hides its boot time status messages behind a contentless graphical boot image. The result is that users never have a clue what is going on when their system is booting. I understand that we don't want to "scare people away", but it seems like in the process we are losing out on educating them as well. If it was truly the case that our computer system never required human intervention to make them work, then it wouldn't matter; but it seems unlikely that is going to happen any time soon. Bill Bogstad ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] webmin
The problem I have with GUI administration is if you make a mistake, you never quite know what file got configured incorrectly, then you end up troubleshooting the GUI to find out what to fix. 10 points for open-source. But if you know what you're doing in the first place, it's nice to click once and get it done. - Original Message -From: "Edward Ned Harvey (blu)" >;b...@nedharvey.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] webmin
On 01/24/2013 01:17 PM, Jonathan M. Prigot wrote: Any GUI is going to abstract you from the underlying system. (For a good treatise on this, check out "In the Beginning Was the Command Line" by Neal Stephenson.) I prefer the use of the CLI because it gets me close to the subsystems. The price is the system doing exactly what I say, for good or ill. GUI's take some of that intimate control away, but sometimes that's what you want. To amplify this point, and I think to clarify my objective. The GUI allows most of the common routine tasks to be done. They are well traveled and offer little or not chance of difficulty. Adding a user should be an easy task that can be bundled by a UI. Configuring an iSCSI target or firewall, should be easier and doable. Configuring Apache? Well, if you aren't doing anything interesting, then yes. It should be doable. If you want to finely tune your apache install? Well, then a GUI is probably in your way. That said, once the system is up and running... A GUI for this stuff should reduce the need for skilled admins to add/remove users, check logs, or check hard disk status. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] webmin
> From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss- > bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan M. Prigot > > Any GUI is going to abstract you from the underlying system. (For a good > treatise on this, check out "In the Beginning Was the Command Line" by > Neal Stephenson.) I prefer the use of the CLI because it gets me close > to the subsystems. The price is the system doing exactly what I say, for > good or ill. GUI's take some of that intimate control away, but > sometimes that's what you want. GUIs can add a layer of error checking. For example, you can't accidentally specify both DHCP and STATIC. But if you do it manually, you can easily make that error, or worse ... You might enable DCHP, which might have the effect of enabling neither DHCP or STATIC, and even cut you off from the machine... ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] webmin
Any GUI is going to abstract you from the underlying system. (For a good treatise on this, check out "In the Beginning Was the Command Line" by Neal Stephenson.) I prefer the use of the CLI because it gets me close to the subsystems. The price is the system doing exactly what I say, for good or ill. GUI's take some of that intimate control away, but sometimes that's what you want. -- Jonathan M. Prigot On Thu, 2013-01-24 at 18:02 +, Edward Ned Harvey (blu) wrote: > > From: Mark Woodward [mailto:ma...@mohawksoft.com] > > > > > A powerful gui that dumbs down your admin tasks with all sorts of pitfalls > > and shortcomings that enable you to shoot yourself in the foot. > > > > That's true of all GUI's atop of complex paradigms. > > Only if the GUI doesn't fully implement the underlying layer, or if the GUI > lacks error detection/correction that affects the underlying layer. > > But any gui that is fully featured simply gives access and control to the > same stuff in a format that doesn't require memorization, and uses geography > / real estate / visual aids, that accelerate your productivity. I can name, > for example, the IP address configuration GUI. It gives you full access to > the underlying stuff, without need to memorize which files contain those > configs, nor what the precise syntax is for each of those files. And of > course, "those files" is a set of files which is prone to change from rev to > rev of the OS. > > But since this topic is about webmin, my experience with webmin is just like > my experience with ASDM. It neither implements the full featureset under the > hood, nor does a problem-free implementation of the stuff that implements. > You try to make some change, and when you hit Apply, it throws some error > back at you... Some of what you were doing might have been applied, and some > might not... And various other problems. > > ___ > Discuss mailing list > Discuss@blu.org > http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error and the e-mail contains patient information, please contact the Partners Compliance HelpLine at http://www.partners.org/complianceline . If the e-mail was sent to you in error but does not contain patient information, please contact the sender and properly dispose of the e-mail. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] webmin
> From: Mark Woodward [mailto:ma...@mohawksoft.com] > > > A powerful gui that dumbs down your admin tasks with all sorts of pitfalls > and shortcomings that enable you to shoot yourself in the foot. > > That's true of all GUI's atop of complex paradigms. Only if the GUI doesn't fully implement the underlying layer, or if the GUI lacks error detection/correction that affects the underlying layer. But any gui that is fully featured simply gives access and control to the same stuff in a format that doesn't require memorization, and uses geography / real estate / visual aids, that accelerate your productivity. I can name, for example, the IP address configuration GUI. It gives you full access to the underlying stuff, without need to memorize which files contain those configs, nor what the precise syntax is for each of those files. And of course, "those files" is a set of files which is prone to change from rev to rev of the OS. But since this topic is about webmin, my experience with webmin is just like my experience with ASDM. It neither implements the full featureset under the hood, nor does a problem-free implementation of the stuff that implements. You try to make some change, and when you hit Apply, it throws some error back at you... Some of what you were doing might have been applied, and some might not... And various other problems. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] webmin
On 01/24/2013 12:32 PM, Edward Ned Harvey (blu) wrote: From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss- bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of Mark Woodward Has anyone used it? Are there better options? How's the security? General opinions? Webmin is to linux as ASDM is to cisco. A powerful gui that dumbs down your admin tasks with all sorts of pitfalls and shortcomings that enable you to shoot yourself in the foot. That's true of all GUI's atop of complex paradigms. However, a reasonably intelligent person with a degree of understanding and restraint should be able to handle 90% of most admin tasks with it. Or at least that's what I am hoping. I have been playing around with it, and I am less skeptical. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] webmin
> From: discuss-bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org [mailto:discuss- > bounces+blu=nedharvey@blu.org] On Behalf Of Mark Woodward > > Has anyone used it? Are there better options? How's the security? > General opinions? Webmin is to linux as ASDM is to cisco. A powerful gui that dumbs down your admin tasks with all sorts of pitfalls and shortcomings that enable you to shoot yourself in the foot. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] webmin
It is great if you are handing over control to an inexperienced person.
Once you have tailored the modules (e.g. "Install Samba/delete
PostgreSQL") you've pretty much controlled what pieces of the system
they have access to. It also handles the interconnected issues ("When I
add a user, also add them to the Samba database.")
--
Jonathan M. Prigot
On Thu, 2013-01-24 at 08:08 -0500, Mark Woodward wrote:
> I am setting up a server for a fairly technical guy, not a admin level
> guy, but a smart kid that can do/figure out most tasks, and I also trust
> that he has the temperament to recognize and call me before he does
> anything *bad*. Generally speaking, of course.
>
> The webmin package seems to be a very powerful admin package and I've
> noticed similarities between it and the D-Link NAS I have.
>
> My question for the group
>
> Has anyone used it? Are there better options? How's the security?
> General opinions?
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@blu.org
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to whom it is
addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error and the e-mail
contains patient information, please contact the Partners Compliance HelpLine at
http://www.partners.org/complianceline . If the e-mail was sent to you in error
but does not contain patient information, please contact the sender and properly
dispose of the e-mail.
___
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@blu.org
http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [Discuss] webmin
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Mark Woodward wrote: > I am setting up a server for a fairly technical guy, not a admin level > guy, but a smart kid that can do/figure out most tasks, and I also trust > that he has the temperament to recognize and call me before he does > anything *bad*. Generally speaking, of course. > > The webmin package seems to be a very powerful admin package and I've > noticed similarities between it and the D-Link NAS I have. > > My question for the group > > Has anyone used it? Are there better options? How's the security? General > opinions? > A long time ago when I was first learning linux it was the best thing, but if I ever encountered a linux admin now that was using it I wouldn't let them touch any of my boxes. Matt ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[Discuss] webmin
I am setting up a server for a fairly technical guy, not a admin level guy, but a smart kid that can do/figure out most tasks, and I also trust that he has the temperament to recognize and call me before he does anything *bad*. Generally speaking, of course. The webmin package seems to be a very powerful admin package and I've noticed similarities between it and the D-Link NAS I have. My question for the group Has anyone used it? Are there better options? How's the security? General opinions? ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@blu.org http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
