Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?
- Original Message From: Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com On 5/17/11 4:17 PM, BRM wrote: Personally I hope Oracle doesn't drop the ball on it and that OpenOffice proper can become a true community lead project as I haven't yet seen anything from the leadership of TDF to give me confidence they are not doing the same thing they blamed Oracle for, just in a slightly different fashion. (Thus why I've been lurking more.) Being a member of the Steering Committee of TDF, and having some problems in understanding the meaning of your sentence, may I ask you to be more specific on the same thing they blamed Oracle for? Thanks. Since you asked... As I participated in a number of discussions early on, I noticed a lot of things where the founding people just rammed through their opinion without really listening to the community. In some cases, the community decision was aligned with the members, but they stilled didn't take to the decision through the community but through what they wanted so it the decision seemed more forced on the community than decided by the community even in those cases - e.g. go back and read the Copyright Assignment discussion. So while I do hope that the TDF leadership does start listening to the community, etc. I have yet to see that really happen any better than Oracle was doing. Ben -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?
BRM wrote: In some cases, the community decision was aligned with the members, but they stilled didn't take to the decision through the community but through what they wanted so it the decision seemed more forced on the community than decided by the community even in those cases Hi Ben, well, the thing with decision making is that invariably, you'll make people unhappy - that said, the canonical answer to your problem is, strive for, and apply for membership. In contrast to the OOo project, members collectively have a true say here. - e.g. go back and read the Copyright Assignment discussion. Um - surely that's a bad example for deciding against the community - since all of the developer community made it abundantly clear that they don't like copyright assignment so much? ;) Cheers, -- Thorsten -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?
- Original Message From: Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org To: BRM bm_witn...@yahoo.com Cc: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 5:34:38 AM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried? BRM wrote: In some cases, the community decision was aligned with the members, but they stilled didn't take to the decision through the community but through what they wanted so it the decision seemed more forced on the community than decided by the community even in those cases well, the thing with decision making is that invariably, you'll make people unhappy - that said, the canonical answer to your problem is, strive for, and apply for membership. In contrast to the OOo project, members collectively have a true say here. - e.g. go back and read the Copyright Assignment discussion. Um - surely that's a bad example for deciding against the community - since all of the developer community made it abundantly clear that they don't like copyright assignment so much? ;) You missed the point. That was actually an example where they made the right decision but for the wrong reason. Yes the developers were overwhelmingly for not having any copyright assignment; however, the 3 people founding TDF at the time decided long before the community came to that decision not to do it and didn't really even listen to the community, participate beneficially in the discussion, etc. So as I said, the decision seemed forced upon the community rather than decided by the community even though the community did agree on that issue. On the other hand, there were discussions regarding the GO-OO patches as well as whether or not to support writing OOXML - topics that were sidelined in favor of a decision by the same 3 people rather than listening to the community. So again, decisions that affect the community - some of which have potentially legal impacts and pitfalls - were decided not by the community but forced by a couple people. While I was originally optimistic that TDF/LO would be better than Sun/Oracle OOo, as a result I have yet to see that happen. That's not to say it isn't happening or the community isn't taking over - I'm just waiting a bit longer to see. So for now yes, I continue to use OOo. If TDF/LO shows it is truly a community project and not ruled by a benevolent few that are forcing the hands of the community, then I will likely switch over and start participating more - until then I shall continue to watch. Ben -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?
Hi Ben, This discussion is a bit, as we say in Dutch ouwe koeien uit de sloot halen :-) (hmm, old stuff that maybe you shouldn't care about any longer) I have seen moments too in the first months of TDF that did not feel so good. However ... BRM wrote (18-05-11 11:53): While I was originally optimistic that TDF/LO would be better than Sun/Oracle OOo, as a result I have yet to see that happen. That's not to say it isn't happening or the community isn't taking over - I'm just waiting a bit longer to see. So for now yes, I continue to use OOo. If TDF/LO shows it is truly a community project and not ruled by a benevolent few that are forcing the hands of the community, then I will likely switch over and start participating more - until then I shall continue to watch. .. in this community there is no single person or party pushing decisions. All that participate have a saying. But of course, most in areas where your participation is relevant. And sure, still some processes are not perfect. But that is noticed and people involved discuss about how it works and haw to improve. Be welcome. Best, Cor -- - http://nl.libreoffice.org - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?
Hi Em 18-05-2011 07:05, Cor Nouws escreveu: Hi Ben, (snip) .. in this community there is no single person or party pushing decisions. All that participate have a saying. But of course, most in areas where your participation is relevant. And sure, still some processes are not perfect. But that is noticed and people involved discuss about how it works and haw to improve. Be welcome. Best, Cor Yes and to support Cor, TDF has several channels open to the community for participation, and it includes lists and live conference calls. Regards -- Olivier Hallot Founder, Steering Commitee Member - The Document Foundation Voicing the enterprise needs LibreOffice translation leader for Brazilian Portuguese +55-21-8822-8812 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] OpenOffice dead and burried?
Hi, On Tue, 17 May 2011 03:49:42 -0700 (PDT), plino pedl...@gmail.com wrote: Since Oracle discontinued commercial development of the OpenOffice suite, and is handling it back to the open-source community for future development and the open-source community moved to LibreOffice, what future is there for OpenOffice? http://www.betanews.com/article/Oracle-hands-OpenOffice-to-opensource-community-gives-up-commercial-sales/1303142878 This was over a month ago. There hasn't been a new OOo build since Dev300m106 back in April 4th and 3.4 Beta in April 11th... Does this mean that no new code has been released either? I am asking this question because I am still hoping that the IAccessible2 implementation that IBM donated to Oracle last year and that Oracle was integrating and testing, will still get released somehow. IBM cannot say yet whether they would do the same exercise again if the IAccessible2 implementation does not get released (maybe they are also waiting for more announcements from Oracle at the end of this month). I have reasons to hope (I am not sure if I can disclose why) that the IAccessible2 implementation will be made available; LibreOffice could then access it too. The IAccessible2 implementation is a considerable piece of work, without which OpenOffice.org (and LibreOffice) remains poorly accessible to screen reader users on MS Windows. What do they mean by handing it back? Are they giving up on the OpenOffice brand? My contacts at Oracle have not made any statements about that. I am waiting for another press release. Best regards, Christophe Can someone from TDF shed some light? -- Christophe Strobbe K.U.Leuven - Dept. of Electrical Engineering - SCD Research Group on Document Architectures Kasteelpark Arenberg 10 bus 2442 B-3001 Leuven-Heverlee BELGIUM tel: +32 16 32 85 51 www.docarch.be Twitter: @RabelaisA11y -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] OpenOffice dead and burried?
Hi, And not IAccessible2 is the only useful application which future is uncertain. There are many other tools (migration wizard, document analyzer, share-point connector, ODF modul for MSO) which were not open source licensed but were mainly free to use and helped a lot integrating OO.o into Windows environment and for doc migrating. Do you have any idea about these tools availability? Cheers -- Kürti László From: Christophe Strobbe christophe.stro...@esat.kuleuven.be To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 12:56:13 PM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] OpenOffice dead and burried? Hi, On Tue, 17 May 2011 03:49:42 -0700 (PDT), plino pedl...@gmail.com wrote: Since Oracle discontinued commercial development of the OpenOffice suite, and is handling it back to the open-source community for future development and the open-source community moved to LibreOffice, what future is there for OpenOffice? http://www.betanews.com/article/Oracle-hands-OpenOffice-to-opensource-community-gives-up-commercial-sales/1303142878 This was over a month ago. There hasn't been a new OOo build since Dev300m106 back in April 4th and 3.4 Beta in April 11th... Does this mean that no new code has been released either? I am asking this question because I am still hoping that the IAccessible2 implementation that IBM donated to Oracle last year and that Oracle was integrating and testing, will still get released somehow. IBM cannot say yet whether they would do the same exercise again if the IAccessible2 implementation does not get released (maybe they are also waiting for more announcements from Oracle at the end of this month). I have reasons to hope (I am not sure if I can disclose why) that the IAccessible2 implementation will be made available; LibreOffice could then access it too. The IAccessible2 implementation is a considerable piece of work, without which OpenOffice.org (and LibreOffice) remains poorly accessible to screen reader users on MS Windows. What do they mean by handing it back? Are they giving up on the OpenOffice brand? My contacts at Oracle have not made any statements about that. I am waiting for another press release. Best regards, Christophe Can someone from TDF shed some light? -- Christophe Strobbe K.U.Leuven - Dept. of Electrical Engineering - SCD Research Group on Document Architectures Kasteelpark Arenberg 10 bus 2442 B-3001 Leuven-Heverlee BELGIUM tel: +32 16 32 85 51 www.docarch.be Twitter: @RabelaisA11y -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?
Hi Kurti And not IAccessible2 is the only useful application which future is uncertain. There are many other tools (migration wizard, document analyzer, share-point connector, ODF modul for MSO) which were not open source licensed but were mainly free to use and helped a lot integrating OO.o into Windows environment and for doc migrating. From my limited knowledge I would say the ODF add-in is still open source (but seems to be abandoned). http://odf-converter.sourceforge.net/ In my opinion it would be strategic to TDF (in colaboration with OASIS) to revive this project. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/OpenOffice-dead-and-burried-tp2951991p2956934.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?
May I just take the time to agree 100% that this old stuff is, or should be, dead and buried so we can move on. Remember, we are not alone in forking from Oracle this way - for instance the Drizzle database (by ex-MSQL developers) is now rated best non-proprietary database option and this month LibreOffice was for the first time similarly rated as the best non-proprietary office option. Frankly, there is only Java left before Oracle burns all the bridges it bought. So let's just move on and do what we are here for. On 18/05/2011 11:05, Cor Nouws wrote: Hi Ben, This discussion is a bit, as we say in Dutch ouwe koeien uit de sloot halen :-) (hmm, old stuff that maybe you shouldn't care about any longer) I have seen moments too in the first months of TDF that did not feel so good. However ... BRM wrote (18-05-11 11:53): While I was originally optimistic that TDF/LO would be better than Sun/Oracle OOo, as a result I have yet to see that happen. That's not to say it isn't happening or the community isn't taking over - I'm just waiting a bit longer to see. So for now yes, I continue to use OOo. If TDF/LO shows it is truly a community project and not ruled by a benevolent few that are forcing the hands of the community, then I will likely switch over and start participating more - until then I shall continue to watch. .. in this community there is no single person or party pushing decisions. All that participate have a saying. But of course, most in areas where your participation is relevant. And sure, still some processes are not perfect. But that is noticed and people involved discuss about how it works and haw to improve. Be welcome. Best, Cor -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Observations of LibreOffice and our users..
Hi, I'm the administrator for FanFiction.Net and FictionPress.com and we have always pushed openoffice and now libreoffice to our users. However, we would like to give you guys some feedbacks from our users regarding the perception of libreoffice. 1) Our members are mostly non-techy and heavy users of word processing features. 2A) Some members falsely believe we are profiting off somehow from this LibreOffice download. 2B) Some members have false perception of LibreOffice somehow paying us to put a link to your site. 3) (2) shows that LibreOffice is a new name with not a widely accepted recognition in the non-tech world. 4) Overall, it's leading to lower adoption that I would like and a general false perception that I did not see with OpenOffice. Recommendations: Please retool the Libreoffice site just a little with more emphasis on the following: 1) Abouse US should not be last item in the menu. LibreOffice has a branding problem and it should be first or second in terms of prioity on the menu. 2) Make the site and especially the download page, which most of us link to, more consumer and not project centric. Right now, the whole site looks very business/corporate like. 3) Emphasis Non-Profit much more. So that new users can differentiate free vs non-profit. There are lots of free software out there that have commerical tie-ins and LibreOffice needs to give more thoughts to this. For example the first sentence of About US page is: LibreOffice is community-driven and developed software which is a project of the not-for-profit organization, The Document Foundation. Why is not-for-profit the last thought of the sentence? Also no mention of free either. This sentence is written for developers and not end-users which is a oversight. Target the end-users first. Developers are smart enough to know who you guys are already. Maybe I'm being too detailed here but overall, I would like LibreOffice to do a better job of presenting itself via the website as a free end-user, consumer friendly software from an non-profit entity. It's more about presentations of LibreOffice to the end-user to give them a comfortable feeling when they visit the site for the first time. The download page is needlessly too complicated for end-users. Don't list sdk or source code builds. End-users have no idea what they are. Perhaps have a end-user/consumer-centric main site and a separate dev.libreoffice.org site. I would recommend a similar approach as taken by sites such as www.getfirefox.com or www.google.com/chrome. Just give them one download link, one logo, one line intro to what it is and that is free, plus a friendly graphics and then a link to find out more if they want to. Just some suggestions. I love the software and would like to help it spread like summer weed. =) Regards, Xing -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
