Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Erich Christian]

Hi,

Am 30.12.2011 04:53, schrieb Danishka Navin:
> next generation won't find a floppy disk in real life. 
> we better use some thing else

+1
I'd go for a change, neither elderly people nor 'youngsters' associate
anything useful with the symbol. Having asked my teenagers (13, 16, 19)
who are familiar with computers ever since, they cannot remember floppy
although I've been using some until a couple of years ago and also their
machines came with floppy slots for long...


> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Tony Pursell
>> The point I am making is that an old fashioned floppy disk is not the only
>> icon
>> used for Save and the world will not come to an end if some other
>> appropriate,
>> and more modern, icon is used in its place.  Having said that, a hard drive
>> may
>> be old fashioned in a few years time when SSDs become the norm.

The german localization of 'save' (which rather means rescue in german)
is 'store' (speichern) so imo we might as well use a 'common' storage
symbol e.g.
http://www.crestock.com/image/4072237-3d-box-with-yellow-folders.aspx
or
http://www.discounto.de/Angebot/Aktenordner-DIN-A4-42358/
maybe plus down arrow (just for quick examples).

CCing the Design-list for opinions on this topic.

cheers
Erich

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Cor Nouws]

Erich Christian wrote (30-12-11 11:45)


I'd go for a change, neither elderly people nor 'youngsters' associate
anything useful with the symbol. Having asked my teenagers (13, 16, 19)
who are familiar with computers ever since, they cannot remember floppy
although I've been using some until a couple of years ago and also their
machines came with floppy slots for long...


IMO most important question is what people look for if they want to 
store something.

For me that would be a Ctrl-S-icon ;-)
And I guess ... for most other it is the well known icon ?!

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 - http://nl.libreoffice.org


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: How do I test bug in 3.5 that have been bumped back to NEEDINFO

[Tony Pursell]

On 28 December 2011 19:48, NoOp  wrote:

> On 12/28/2011 09:25 AM, Tony Pursell wrote:
> > It seems that all the bugs that were in Bugzilla as NEW have been bumped
> > back to NEEDINFO with the message
> >
> > "This bug was filed before the changes to Bugzilla on 2011-10-16. Thus it
> > started right out as NEW without ever being explicitly confirmed. The
> bug is
> > changed to state NEEDINFO for this reason. To move this bug from
> NEEDINFO back
> > to NEW please check if the bug still persists with the 3.5.0 beta1 or
> beta2
> > prereleases.
> > Details on how to test the 3.5.0 beta1 can be found
> > at:http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/BugHunting_Session_3.5.0.-1";
> >
> > I have to say this is very irritating where a bug has been logged for
> > a long time
> > and re-affirmed may times for new versions of OpenOffice.org, originally,
> > and now LibreOffice.
> >
> > That said, however, I am quite willing to test my bug in 3.5, but the
> > link above is
> > most unhelpful.  What I need is a way to use 3.5 for testing, while
> > retaining the
> > current stable version for everyday use.  Can someone help me with that?
>  I am
> > using Ubuntu 11.10 32 bit on a HP desktop PC.
> >
> > Tony
> >
>
> Tony, download the 3.5 debs:
> http://www.libreoffice.org/download/pre-releases/
> Extract with Nautilus: 'Extract here'
> In a terminal cd to:
> /LibO-Dev_3.5.0beta2_Linux_x86_install-deb_en-US/DEBS and install:
>
> $ sudo dpkg -i *.deb
>
> Do the same for the help file:
> /LibO-Dev_3.5.0beta2_Linux_x86_helppack-deb_en-US/DEBS
>
> $ sudo dpkg -i *.deb
>
> That will install the dev version in /opt/lodev3.5. These will not
> interfere wihth your existing LO install(s) & will create a profile as
> ~/.config/lodev/3/user.
>
> Now create a menu or desktop launcher to:
> /opt/lodev3.5/program/soffice
> and off you go.
>
>
Thanks very much for your help on this.  LibO-Dev is successfully installed
and
I have tested for the bug I've been following (no surprise that it is still
there).

Cor has put a comment on the website to reassure that this installation
does not
interfere with the current stable version, but I still think I would have
been in
difficulties without your help.

Thanks again,

Tony

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[tdf-discuss] Scaling Video in Impress

[Gene Kohlenberg]

Has the scaling feature in the Media Playback toolbar of Impress been 
disabled?  It is grayed out on both of my computers, now.  I formerly 
was able to scale videos.


I have had to reinstall XP on both of these computers because one hard 
drive died and the other began causing problems because of age.  I am 
using version 3.4.3 on XP SP3.



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[M Robinson]

On 12/29/2011 5:23 AM, Tony Pursell wrote:
> On 29 December 2011 00:29, NoOp  wrote:
> 
>> On 12/28/2011 03:59 PM, NoOp wrote:
>>> On 12/28/2011 02:46 PM, Tony Pursell wrote:
>>> ...

 Until I checked it out just now, I didn't realise that the Save icon
>> used
 in the Ubuntu version of LO is actually a broad green downward arrow on
>> top
 of a representation of a Hard drive.  Now, I have had no problems saving
 documents, so I imagine that things like the position of the icon (next
>> to
 the Open File icon) and the tool tip are all part of identifying the
>> Save
 icon.  When I looked at the floppy disk icon on my wife's Win 7
>> version, I
 realise how old fashioned it looks.

 Tony

>>>
>>> That is because you have your icon style set to 'Human'. Ubuntu includes
>>> openoffice.org-style-human and libreoffice-style-human in their
>>> repositories. If LO provided the same & set the default to 'Human' the
>>> save icon would be the same (disk drive with a down arrow).
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Correction: libreoffice-style-humanity
>> See: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/757304
>>
> 
> Thanks for the explanation of why Ubuntu is different.
> 
> The point I am making is that an old fashioned floppy disk is not the only
> icon
> used for Save and the world will not come to an end if some other
> appropriate,
> and more modern, icon is used in its place.  Having said that, a hard drive
> may
> be old fashioned in a few years time when SSDs become the norm.
> 
> Tony
> 

I haven't heard of Delete/Eraser that works as well on SSDs as
traditional hard drives. That said USB will be the most common storage
media soon enough. Who saves to CDs at work?

I don't think the icon is a big deal, the whole interface is dated, I
pitched a Firefox addon-like interface a while back, but I'm still ahead
of my time on that.

Rather than reinventing the wheel, update the saveicon with a stock USB
icon: a vertical USB icon, it looks like a human carrying stuff and you
have the integrated download arrow, and it is a recognized symbol on
cameras, phones, TVs, etc.

http://imagebin.org/190980

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[NoOp]

On 12/30/2011 08:12 AM, M Robinson wrote:
...
> 
> I haven't heard of Delete/Eraser that works as well on SSDs as
> traditional hard drives. That said USB will be the most common storage
> media soon enough. Who saves to CDs at work?
> 
> I don't think the icon is a big deal, the whole interface is dated, I
> pitched a Firefox addon-like interface a while back, but I'm still ahead
> of my time on that.
> 
> Rather than reinventing the wheel, update the saveicon with a stock USB
> icon: a vertical USB icon, it looks like a human carrying stuff and you
> have the integrated download arrow, and it is a recognized symbol on
> cameras, phones, TVs, etc.
> 
> http://imagebin.org/190980
> 

Rather than reinvent the wheel:

Stock icons:
GNOME & Humanity:

[my system Humanity:
/usr/share/icons/Humanity/actions/16/document-save.svg
matches the one from freedesktop.org]

Tango:

[which is not used by LO when the Tango theme is selected - LO still
uses a floppy with the Tango theme. My system Tango:
/usr/share/icons/Tango/22x22/actions/document-save.png
matches the one from freedesktop.org]

freedesktop.org Icon Theme Specification:

"document-save  The icon for the save action. Should be an arrow pointing
down and toward a hard disk."

I suspect that LO are still using these icons for Tango:

[Tango OpenOffice.org 2.0 -Note this artwork is not public domain.]
However, that standard Tango icons *are* public domain:
http://tango.freedesktop.org/

Terms Of Use

The Tango base icon theme is released to the Public Domain. The palette
is in public domain. Developers, feel free to ship it along with your
application. The icon naming utilities are licensed under the GPL.

Though the tango-icon-theme package is released to the Public Domain, we
ask that you still please attribute the Tango Desktop Project, for all
the hard work we've done. Thanks.






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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Robert Derman]

M Robinson wrote:



I haven't heard of Delete/Eraser that works as well on SSDs as
traditional hard drives. That said USB will be the most common storage
media soon enough. Who saves to CDs at work?

I don't think the icon is a big deal, the whole interface is dated, I
pitched a Firefox addon-like interface a while back, but I'm still ahead
of my time on that.

Rather than reinventing the wheel, update the saveicon with a stock USB
icon: a vertical USB icon, it looks like a human carrying stuff and you
have the integrated download arrow, and it is a recognized symbol on
cameras, phones, TVs, etc.
  
I am retired now, but I used to be a system builder, and I still build 
one once in a while.  The point is, new motherboard designs no longer 
even include floppy interface connectors.  If you use a floppy drive, it 
is most likely to be to input important (old) files into your computer 
that only existed on floppy, and you will do it using a floppy drive 
connected to a USB interface. 



That said, I think that because you might use your systems hard drive, 
an optical disk, or a USB memory thumb drive, or even the cloud to store 
a document, it might be best to just represent the save with a little 
square with the letters [SV] inside to represent save.  I myself use 
hard drive for most saves, USB for back-up saves, and optical disk for 
archival saves because optical disks are dirt cheap.  I just figured out 
that a DVD+-R with over 4 Gig of storage actually costs less than one of 
the old 3.5" floppies that only held 1.4 Mb, which is over 3000 times as 
much capacity, which is why the floppy is dead. 

I still have one or two old floppy drives laying around my old parts, 
but I tossed the last of my floppy disks in the trash a year or two 
ago.  A bit of trivia here, Windows 95 came on a set of 13 floppy disks, 
and at the time of Windows 98 you had to use a floppy disk to input the 
drivers to interface with an optical drive before you could install the 
OS which came on a CD-ROM.  As recently as 2 years ago you still had to 
use a floppy drive to input the drivers to enable RAID.  Another bit of 
trivia, a DVD recording drive now actually costs less than a 3.5" floppy 
drive used to cost, plus you couldn't play movies on a floppy drive.  
(technically you can record motion pictures on a floppy, but they have 
to be of rather short duration)


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[M Henri Day]

2011/12/30 NoOp 

> On 12/30/2011 08:12 AM, M Robinson wrote:
> ...
> >
> > I haven't heard of Delete/Eraser that works as well on SSDs as
> > traditional hard drives. That said USB will be the most common storage
> > media soon enough. Who saves to CDs at work?
> >
> > I don't think the icon is a big deal, the whole interface is dated, I
> > pitched a Firefox addon-like interface a while back, but I'm still ahead
> > of my time on that.
> >
> > Rather than reinventing the wheel, update the saveicon with a stock USB
> > icon: a vertical USB icon, it looks like a human carrying stuff and you
> > have the integrated download arrow, and it is a recognized symbol on
> > cameras, phones, TVs, etc.
> >
> > http://imagebin.org/190980
> >
>
> Rather than reinvent the wheel:
>
> Stock icons:
> GNOME & Humanity:
> <
> http://svn.gnome.org/svn/gnome-icon-theme/trunk/scalable/actions/document-save.svg
> >
> [my system Humanity:
> /usr/share/icons/Humanity/actions/16/document-save.svg
> matches the one from freedesktop.org]
>
> Tango:
> <
> http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/tango/tango-icon-theme/32x32/actions/document-save.png?view=co
> >
> [which is not used by LO when the Tango theme is selected - LO still
> uses a floppy with the Tango theme. My system Tango:
> /usr/share/icons/Tango/22x22/actions/document-save.png
> matches the one from freedesktop.org]
>
> freedesktop.org Icon Theme Specification:
> <
> http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-naming-spec/icon-naming-spec-latest.html
> >
> "document-save  The icon for the save action. Should be an arrow pointing
> down and toward a hard disk."
>
> I suspect that LO are still using these icons for Tango:
> 
> [Tango OpenOffice.org 2.0 -Note this artwork is not public domain.]
> However, that standard Tango icons *are* public domain:
> http://tango.freedesktop.org/
> 
> Terms Of Use
>
> The Tango base icon theme is released to the Public Domain. The palette
> is in public domain. Developers, feel free to ship it along with your
> application. The icon naming utilities are licensed under the GPL.
>
> Though the tango-icon-theme package is released to the Public Domain, we
> ask that you still please attribute the Tango Desktop Project, for all
> the hard work we've done. Thanks.
> 
>

Personally, I like the arrow pointing downward towards a harddisk (would
look much the same if it were interpreted as an SSD), but please give us
some advance notice, so that I can prepare myself for the task of
explaining to my retirees «what they did with the TV on my screen»   :-)

Henri

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Andrea Pescetti]

On 28/12/2011 Norbert Thiebaud wrote:

On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Danishka Navin wrote:

Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
LibreOffice?


When was the last time you saw a phone that look like
http://iphonestudio.co.uk/images/uber_iphone_phone_logo.jpg
Ironically that 70 years old design is still used on IPhone and others
modern cell-phone to indicate: 'telephone'


Indeed. An icon is just a convention to convey a meaning and it should 
not necessarily be a representation of reality. One doesn't usually look 
for words in a document using a binocular or a magnifying glass, but 
people can easily associate these icons to "Find".


For those who want to practice their Italian or stress-test machine 
translation, here's a nice short and funny article from 1996 by the 
famous writer Umberto Eco: "Icons everywhere? No thanks, I can read".

http://tecfa.unige.ch/staf/staf9597/beltrame/STAF13/eco.html

Regards,
  Andrea.

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[tdf-discuss] English Wiki -> new menue

[Jochen]

Hi *,

I am a part of German commnity and work among other things on the German 
WIKI.
In German WIKI we have created a new menu - called "Makros" [1]. The 
english equivalent is "macros" [2].


I would like to inquire whether the english community is agreed to 
incorporate a new menu item in {{Menu}}


[1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Macros/de
[2] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Macros

Regards

Jochen

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[M Henri Day]

2011/12/30 Andrea Pescetti 

> On 28/12/2011 Norbert Thiebaud wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Danishka Navin wrote:
>>
>>> Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
>>> LibreOffice?
>>>
>>
>> When was the last time you saw a phone that look like
>> http://iphonestudio.co.uk/**images/uber_iphone_phone_logo.**jpg
>> Ironically that 70 years old design is still used on IPhone and others
>> modern cell-phone to indicate: 'telephone'
>>
>
> Indeed. An icon is just a convention to convey a meaning and it should not
> necessarily be a representation of reality. One doesn't usually look for
> words in a document using a binocular or a magnifying glass, but people can
> easily associate these icons to "Find".
>
> For those who want to practice their Italian or stress-test machine
> translation, here's a nice short and funny article from 1996 by the famous
> writer Umberto Eco: "Icons everywhere? No thanks, I can read".
> http://tecfa.unige.ch/staf/**staf9597/beltrame/STAF13/eco.**html
>
> Regards,
>  Andrea.


As a counter to Professor Eco's brief - and as always in his case, witty
critique of icons, may I suggest that interested users test his conclusions
by launching Writer, clicking Tools and selecting Customise and then
Toolbars, clicking the Toolbar button and finally selecting «Text only». *
Pace* Professor Eco, but I suspect that all who do so will immediately
reselect «Icons only»

Henri

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RE: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Although not paying sufficient homage to the brilliant Umberto Eco, it would 
seem that having good tool tips would matter for both the icons (which are 
often quite tiny) and for accessibility reasons.  And the internationalization 
of the tool tips may be rather important.

It would also be good that the default arrangement of the icons not change, no 
matter what the symbols/images are.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pesce...@openoffice.org] 
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 12:21
To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Can we replace "Floppy Disk"

On 28/12/2011 Norbert Thiebaud wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Danishka Navin wrote:
>> Why we still continue the "Floppy Disk" as the icon for "Save" button in
>> LibreOffice?
>
> When was the last time you saw a phone that look like
> http://iphonestudio.co.uk/images/uber_iphone_phone_logo.jpg
> Ironically that 70 years old design is still used on IPhone and others
> modern cell-phone to indicate: 'telephone'

Indeed. An icon is just a convention to convey a meaning and it should 
not necessarily be a representation of reality. One doesn't usually look 
for words in a document using a binocular or a magnifying glass, but 
people can easily associate these icons to "Find".

For those who want to practice their Italian or stress-test machine 
translation, here's a nice short and funny article from 1996 by the 
famous writer Umberto Eco: "Icons everywhere? No thanks, I can read".
http://tecfa.unige.ch/staf/staf9597/beltrame/STAF13/eco.html

Regards,
   Andrea.

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