Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla
I must agree here. Automated crash reports have kind of a bad reputation, mainly because of Windows XP. * you don't know what is being sent, and even when its listed you can't be sure there's no personal data * you don't know what is being done with the data * there's nothing done about that, at least that's what I feel better: * ask the user once at the beginning if he wants to report crashes and list the information THERE * NEVER include things like the current program's memory page dump or something alike * then DO NOT ask again but just send it alternative: * pop-up which sais that a crash report can be sent if the user wishes, but: * it only has a input field where the user can say for himself what happened and when * checkbox saying something like: include relevant data, where data really leads to ALL the data being sent The current problem is that hardly anyone trusts these crash reports - that's what I experience when talking to friends about that issue. So we first have to make the user think that something is being done. I've repeatedly used the Firefox made me sad-thing but I've never used the crash report before. Joey. I don't know about others, but I, for one, NEVER send those automated crash reports. It feels a bit like big brother watching over my shoulder. You are kidding right? -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice UI should be tweaked, not reinvented
Is that Citrus UI stuff just a design study or actually implemented somehow? Because I really think this is the way LibO should look like - and work. The style replacement thing is great, and the unsaved style suggests the user that there is such a thing as styles. The problem with current programs is that even though you might style your text bold, the style chooser still sais standard. 2010/11/8 Mirek M. maz...@gmail.com: 2010/11/4 Craig A. Eddy ty...@cox.net Robert, I'm sorry, but I must disagree with you.I'm not a developer, I'm a user.I will admit that I started with Microsoft Word (More years ago than I'm comfortable admitting), but switched to OO.o as soon as it came out.It's only just recently that I've begun to understand how to use (and create) styles because of the complexity and lack of intuitiveness involved.That, coupled with the gadawful heading and text styles left me with having to adjust the Microsoft way - manually.I would much rather be able to set up a style and have a document stick to it than to have to go through manually and adjust everything just because I made a change.But, not being a trained power-user, the best I can do is stumble along learning by accident.And, just in the way of introduction, I have been many things in my life.In one job, alone (that I held for 15 1/2 years), I was a self-taught AutoCAD operator, a self-taught webmaster and website designer, a brochure and flier creator, and the jack-leg systems administrator that answered such questions as how do I do this with this program (a program with which I was unfamiliar and didn't have installed on my machine), or how come my machine keeps slowing down/crashing (people just won't learn about viruses).I am looking forward to LibreOffice as the new freedom from Microsoft thinking.Craig A. EddyOn 11/04/2010 11:19 AM, Robert Derman wrote:Sebastian Spaeth wrote:On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 20:55:19 +0100, Johannes Bausch wrote:things concerning tables. We absolutely HAVE to make the user use thestylesheet stuff, and it must be so easy that they start to use it onone-paged documents.Removing the font chooser, and font-size selector would save lots ofspace that could be replaced with a simple style chooser :)Here I have to disagree, non power users are much more likely to use the font chooser and size selector than they are to have anything at all to do with styles. On styles: http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/11/08/citrus-styles/ -- Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice UI should be tweaked, not reinvented
I think all this dicussion on radically altering the UI is unnecessary. Well I think it is okay to have such discussions. You can say that you like the current UI as it is, but this doesn't make new ideas superfluous. One of the advantages of LibreOffice/OOo over MS Office is that the interface is familiar and easy to grasp. I don't get that. It's familiar because its similar to MS Office? But why is the easiness an advantage over MS Office if it is similar? Then MS Office is easy, too. But the question is: Is the quite similar, but not too similar interface of OO BETTER than MS Office? I don't think so. Menus still provide a familiar and easy to use method of organizing a large number of features. +1, I don't like ribbon interfaces neither, because you don't see your tools vanish. Greying out things is the better option, as long as they don't take up much space on screen. Given the large number of features and complexity of office suites, one needs to consider both use cases. Most of the time we only need a small number of features and we want these conveniently located. Thankfully Lo/OOo handles this nicely today with keyboard shortcuts and toolbar icons. Nobody I know knows any shortcuts besides ctrl+c, ctrl+v. Toolbar icons are misleading, over the half of which are permanently visible I couldn't even tell you that I have used them before. Only the tool-tip provides you with the necessary information. And the laundry list of other features can be found in the drop-down menus. Which, again, are not very present to the user. Most radical refactorings I've seen try to clean up the interface, but then hide most of the features. Not hide. The point is that today we HAVE more screen space, but at the same time (new) icons are of little or no help to a user (as I already said). They're hard to grasp. The essential point is that we want to reduce the click count to a specific feature by not only placing icons into toolbars but other things, too, such as a colour selector, options, checkboxes, you name it. We're asking users to relearn a familiar interface, but why? Because the current one has lots of space for improvement. Honestly. The office suites have looked the same now for over ten years. We're practically standing still. You cannot tell me that you're completely satisfied with how it looks at the moment. Very simple tasks get tedious, because nobody uses things like styles. How often do you sit before a document and have to select text, change one attribute, select another paragraph, change the same attribute, ... Office suites are cluttered with an enormous amount of features. Do you know Origin? OO begins to look like it. And while other companies (yeah, Microsoft) at least try to bring improvements and while other technologies such as HTML and CSS are evolving rapidly we do... nothing. Seriously, our current office suite looks like assembler in the age of python. The Office 2007/2010 interface looks nice largely due to nice use of color, gradients, etc. The Lo/OOo interface looks antiquated largedly due to a flat pallete. No. It's so not about gradients and colours. True, they are not perfect, but who cares about that? The problem is that nobody really groups features: this one belongs to text attributes, here is the place I look if I want to embed a picture, here (and only here) are things concerning tables. We absolutely HAVE to make the user use the stylesheet stuff, and it must be so easy that they start to use it on one-paged documents. Honestly, if we kept the existing system of toolbars and drop-down menus, wouldn't most of our users be happy? No, because soon they'll die out because no new users will switch to OO. That sounds drastic, but imagine the following: at the moment the office suites are (mostly) compatible and comparable in both usage and interface. They will be very different five years from now, if OO does nothing about it. Either we attract more users because we have the SIMPLER interface or we adapt to the one MS is offering. The third option is keeping an outdated (but working) interface which satisfies its current users. If they had to re-learn a new system, might it just drive users to Microsoft's office suite (if you have to re-learn, you might as well learn the system used by the masses)? Not if there's nothing to learn. Modern software should be easy to grasp, at least the simple features. I truly believe the current approach works and should be maintained, but improved. There might be some slight tweaks in how the menus are organized. Toolbar defaults might be optimized. And the overall UI could be shined up with some gloss, new icons, gradients, spot color, etc. Again, no, it's not about colour, icons or whatever. That's eyecandy. If anything, I think we should be going the opposite direction. Instead of chasing the Ribbon of 2007/2010, I think we should embrace the abandoned Office 2003 UI even more. Perhaps provide an option
Re: [tdf-discuss] Java dependency
+1 for getting rid of java. 2010/11/2 jonathon toki.kant...@gmail.com: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/02/2010 03:36 PM, T. J. Brumfield wrote: Is there a technical advantage of running the wizards and such in Java that I'm not aware of? For those that have accessibility requirements, the Java is mandatory. OTOH, even with Java, LibO is not an accessible program. On the gripping hand, all office suites fail accessibility requirements. jonathon -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkzQWREACgkQaC1raifmCuGCqgCgmV1hzm573cv4SbhUaUUhJ/kQ e5EAniwzGk/oSRlGtJX5z1pe4ftOE3Q1 =4I9C -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
I agree with you - I write my documents with LaTeX and there you really don't have direct formatting tools. The problem is, though, that tabs are a direct formatting tool by definition - you mark a passage and set your tab stop, just like the character a. It's not a property of your whole document. Indeed, if you want the same tab stop in several parts of the document, you have to do tedious work: remember the tab stop position, mark the passages you need it and manually set it. This is why I don't like tabs. The suggested improvement would let you place snap points (just like in Inkscape, yes) on the ruler - for the whole document, or for the page type you're currently using. Then, when you write text, you can place tabs by pressing tab and they can be snapped to a ruler by resizing them with the mouse - like that you can choose to take the next, the last or whatever snap point you want (note that this would break compatibility with MS Office since there you can only tab to the next tab stop). Another advantage would be that if you move such a snap point line, all tabs all over your document will follow - you don't have to repeat that for every paragraph. 2010/10/29 Jussi Silvonen jussi.silvo...@gmail.com: 2010/10/29 RGB ES rgb.m...@gmail.com Writer have a good tradition of tools that helps the build of complex documents (styles, styles and more styles!). What I would like to see instead of more direct formatting tools, is a redesign of the way styles are defined to easy the learning curve of new users. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Better defaults
I think they check which packages are currently in use (if you install one via Ubuntu's package manager you even see a star rating, I don't know if that's the same, though). 2010/10/27 Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com: Le 2010-10-27 15:30, AG a écrit : Marc I had in mind some kind of sub-routine that, with the user's sign in, would use system data (language preference, locality) along with LibO data (which components are used and relative frequency) and periodically send this data in an anonymised (scrubbed) manner to the LibO team for statistical analysis. The process would have to be transparent, open to user scrutiny and something that they select to do as a contribution to the overall project development, much in the way that SETI would use spare cycles to crunch numbers and send off, in a similar way LibO could request that users sign up to send preference stats. I'm no programmer so probably am not using the appropriate jargon, so I hope this clumsy description outlines the idea. The advantages are: the user doesn't have to register nor do anything aside from tick a box during LibO installation and second, it does lay the ground for promoting LibO as a community-led concept that has a built in means of recruiting and then using user feedback. The latter available through selection - like a continuum of data to send back to LibO including explicit feedback opportunities and joining a community to pool experience and expertise. Something like that, anyway. AG I don't think I would favour this. There is too much potential for gathering data from users and we could really run in trouble if criticism were to spread that we are data mining our LibO users. Is there anything like that on the debian project? Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
