Re: [tdf-discuss] How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs
adept techlists - kazar schrieb: On the other hand ... if I had been an average end-user such as a secretary who decided to take some time out of their day to go to libreoffice.org, click on Bug and fill in the form, and then got a notification asking me to provide all kinds of additional info, I would (1) not be engaging with you here on this list, and (2) would ignore the request because I am on the job and responsible for doing other things for my boss. Thus the issue would sit there in the system as NEEDSINFO. Hi kazar , of course, I know several people who are very clever, but would have very serious problems to contribute requested information or to proceed the requested tests. Currently the only solution I see is to recommend to consult a User mailing list and to find a tutor who will help. Doing that support in the bug report would make the report too confusing. For that we should have a default proceeding (something like subject line NEEDHELP Bug 12345) and a shot manual in the Wiki what will help the user to find the newsgroup, may be to assign and and and. As a first step I added a mailing list hint to my standard text. CU Rainer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs
Rainer Bielefeld schrieb: and to find a tutor who will help. What of course might be the QA tester himself Rainer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs
Apologies for my poorly written email. I should have waited until my headache goes away :p I wrote: Nevertheless, based on Rainer's well-reasoned response explaining that bug reports that do not include certain elements such as sample docs, screenshots, localization info and other things that are not asked for in the public-facing bug report form, are developers being done a disservice? That sentence might make more sense like this: Nevertheless, based on Rainer's well-reasoned response explaining that bug reports that do not include certain elements (such as sample docs, screenshots, localization info and other things that are not asked for in the public-facing bug report form) can actually stress QA/devs more than help them, are developers being done a disservice by the existence of a public-facing bug report form that does not ask for important details? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs
We are talking about https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45247 Hi Ilyse Kazar, as you read I'm not a developer, and I do not want to discourage anybody, my only goal is to process the thousands of unconfirmed (not UNCONFIRMED) as quick as possible. For a better understanding here some short explication why I askd for exactly that information: - Attach a sample document Sometimes a Bug only is visible with particular document settings. It costs 1 minute for a reporter to create a document with 1 populated cell, but may be hours for a reviewer to find what particular settings cause the bug. When the reviewer observes that the bug is reproducible with reporter's sample, but not with an won sample, he knows where to search. - Attach screenshots Screenshots might contain additional information that you use a particular theme, use a particular language, may be we can see what OS version you use, you would be astonished concerning our diagnostic skills ;-) Of course I do not want to see a not working undo, but may be the suggestion list contains a hint? - Language information Many shortcuts are localization related, and we saw strange effects ... - Libo settings that might be related ... It's the simple demand to think about settings you did. For your bug there is no particular suspect, but you never know ... - how you launch LibO ... For example we have bugs that a new document created from Explorer uses a different template or language or other setting than a document created from start center. - What EXACTLY is unexpected ... You write about 2 effects a) UNDO does not work - I would not expect UNDO working in that situation, may be you only wanted to add additional info? b) ... suggesting possible content ... for me that is really unexpected. And info that a bug is not reproducible with an OS different from reporter's also ha it's own value. So the demanded additional info can save a lot of time, and you get the benefit that you might have it fixed in 3.5.1 and not in 5.0 by lucky chance, because we do not find out the reasons for the problem. And ba the way, if you have a suggestion for a text demanding for exactly that information, clear and brief, understandable for non native English speakers, but more encouraging (I know, my comments often sound unintendedly rough), I am open minded. Best regards Rainer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Ilyse, * Added some info to the bugfile. - -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Uwe Altmann -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk86PvQACgkQOTVzivhNo0Lk6QCg7DqBAuNXTE4dayR16ZL4IU9X pm8An3bGXYHUAPuXN8G6hmejPweYmvz7 =mWWF -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs
I noticed a problem in a 3.5 RC 1, I was able to reproduce it every time I tried, and I decided to follow the nice end-user friendly links during the bug hunt. It felt really good as a non-developer to contribute in this very small way. I found the form for filing a big report helpful, although I have filed bug reports galore during my days as a Beta tester, year after year, for a database management title. So I filled in the sections of the bug report with the pertinent information. IMO there is next to no room in my report for misunderstanding as to what I am talking about and how to reproduce it. A developer tests it on a different platform, cannot reproduce, and basically spanks me by suggesting: - that I should have added screenshots (how would you take a screenshot of an Undo that does not work right?!), - I should have clicked some link he provided and read detailed instructions on how to submit my report (the link he tells me I should have read does not exist on the nice friendly page at https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/bug/) - that I should include my LibO localization (UI language, Locale setting) which the form for the report did not ask me for - should include my Libo settings that might be related to your problems AND WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN thinks the end-user All in all this is very discouraging. I had high hopes when I heard about the bug hunt and saw the well-done page for the general public to submit bugs, that maybe this time around I've found an OS project where my contribution, however tiny, would go smoothly and be satisfactory. I do not understand what was unclear about my report but since it was apparently completely insufficient and unintelligible, should I spare my valuable time from submitting any more? This kind of treatment (see below) is classic for developers who never get out of their cubby to say hi to an end user and have a beer and get any sense of who it is they are even writing software for. My bug report is very clear, IMO. I did mention the keystroke for the problematic operation. I did describe the Current Behavior and the Expected Behavior as per the form that was presented for me to fill in. There is no way to take a screenshot of it, I'd have to make a movie. Most of this: OS (Version, Distribution, Language) was included in my user agent string, and nothing additional such as language was asked for in the form. So now my bug report is marked NEEDSINFO and I'm expected to supply all this info that I either already did supply or that is impossible to supply or that I have to start studying documentation to even know what the requested info is ( LibO localization) (sorry I'm a dumb American. I download. I install. I use. I have no clue about localization or where to begin to look for Libo settings that might be related to your problems) To sum up, I think I did a pretty damned good job as a non-developer in my bug report. I think it is clear. I also believe that instead of marking it NEEDSINFO this developer should have left it as Unconfirmed and asked someone on a Mac to confirm. I will not be going back to interact with this developer. And I seriously doubt I'll be filing another bug report. Sorry to say. Very regretfully. Sorry to be so steamed. Thank you for reading. kazar == (bug 45247) Ilyse Kazar 2012-01-25 14:46:07 PST Problem description: Steps to reproduce: 1. Open a spreadsheet that has data in some cells. I have tested with .csv and .ods 2. Click on a populated cell, start typing a few letters (i.e., to replace what was there 3. Press Undo (Cmd-Z) to undo your edit (i.e., in hopes of restoring the original contents of the cell). Press Undo again. Maybe again. Current behavior: The Undo starts suggesting possible content matches from other cells. No matter how many times you press undo the original contents of the cell will not reappear. It appears that the auto-complete logic is somehow trumping the Undo logic. Expected behavior: Undo should restore what was in a cell before typing. Platform (if different from the browser): Browser: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:9.0.1) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/9.0.1 Comment 1 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45247#c1 Rainer Bielefeld 2012-01-25 21:25:16 PST NOT reproducible with LibreOffice 3.5.0 RC2 German UI/Locale [Build-ID: e371a95-bf68a13-5a1aa2b-d3c1ae9-b938258] on German WIN7 Home Premium (64bit) @Ilyse Kazar: May I ask you to read hints onhttp://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport? Then please: - Attach a sample document (not only screenshot) - Attach screenshots with comments if you believe that that might explain the problem better than a text comment. Best way is to insert your screenshots into a DRAW document and to add comments that explain what you want to show - Contribute a step by step instruction containing every key press and every mouse
Re: [tdf-discuss] How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs
Hi Kazar, Thanks for posting here, of course your bug report, and sorry that you got annoyed. adept techlists - kazar wrote (14-02-12 05:52) I noticed a problem in a 3.5 RC 1, I was able to reproduce it every time [...] (bug 45247) Rainer is our most active QA volunteer. His comment states that he cannot reproduce your problem. And then gives some hints that in his experience are useful. Knowing him, I cannot imagine that this is meant as personal criticism. Really sorry if it gave you that impression. Regards, -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] How developers scare end-users away from filing bugs
2012/2/14 Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl: Hi Kazar, Thanks for posting here, of course your bug report, and sorry that you got annoyed. adept techlists - kazar wrote (14-02-12 05:52) I noticed a problem in a 3.5 RC 1, I was able to reproduce it every time [...] (bug 45247) Rainer is our most active QA volunteer. His comment states that he cannot reproduce your problem. And then gives some hints that in his experience are useful. Knowing him, I cannot imagine that this is meant as personal criticism. Really sorry if it gave you that impression. Sure it was not personal, as the comment looks like a copypasted boilerplate text that goes under every unconfirmed bugs. :) Clearly, this bug should be confirmed on Mac. Best regards, Andras -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
