Re: [tdf-discuss] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Chaosun]

Hi All,

I am terriblely sorry regarding my last email which should be private. Please 
ignore it. And forgive me!

Best
Chao


- Original Message - 
From: "Chaosun" 
To: 
Cc: 
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice


> 当前OOo的现状。主要从ASF和IBM角度来看。
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Allen Pulsifer" 
> To: ; 
> Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 10:06 AM
> Subject: [tdf-discuss] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
> 
> 
>> Greetings All,
>> 
>> Some of you will remember me as a long time member of the OpenOffice.org
>> community.  In fact, back in the day, it was sometimes just myself and
>> Michael Meeks who were openly complaining on the OOo mailing list about
>> Sun's handling of the "community" :-)
>> 
>> I'm writing today about what is going on over at the Apache project.  When I
>> heard Oracle was donating the OpenOffice code to the Apache project, I
>> headed over there to see what was going on.  I offer this brief report to
>> bring everyone up to speed:
>> 
>> - According to officers of the Apache Software Foundation, Oracle donated
>> OpenOffice to the ASF by executing the ASF's standard copyright grant.  This
>> grant allows the ASF to release the OpenOffice code under the Apache
>> License.
>> 
>> - The ASF however has a process to accept a project.  The OpenOffice project
>> is now in the proposal stage.  If accepted, it will join the Apache
>> Incubator and become a "podling", which is basically a
>> project-in-development.  During the podling stage, the project would be
>> expected to complete the steps needed to become a full ASF project.  Among
>> other requirements, the podling project has to review the copyright history
>> of all code to ensure it has a clean "title" and is or can be licensed under
>> the Apache License.  If it completes that process, it then becomes a full
>> Apache project.  See
>> https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/incubation_at_apache_what_s
>> 
>> - While the code donation was made by Oracle, the primary champion in the
>> effort to get the code accepted as is Apache Project is IBM.  Let's have no
>> illusions or delusions about this.  IBM has a self-interested motive in
>> championing this project.  Basically, IBM would like to setup a community
>> where both it and other contributors make contributions under the Apache
>> License, and then IBM would take some or all of those contributions and use
>> them in its proprietary products which includes for example IBM Lotus
>> Symphony.  The Apache License specifically allows this.  In fact, the Apache
>> License allows anyone to take the code and use it in their own project, open
>> source or closed source.  In the Apache world, that is considered a feature
>> not a bug.  The ASF would like to see as many people using the code as
>> possible, and for that reason, their license is as liberal as possible,
>> allowing anyone to use the code.  That is exactly the reason that IBM is
>> championing this as an Apache Project, rather than a LGPL project.
>> 
>> And that brings me (almost) to the point of this email.  Any code
>> contributed to the Apache OpenOffice project could be used by anyone,
>> including The Document Foundation, which can take the code, integrate it
>> into LibreOffice, and release it under the LGPL.  Sounds like a good deal,
>> huh?
>> 
>> Here's the rub.  IBM, as I mentioned, is doing this for self-interested
>> reasons.  I would like to propose the members of LibreOffice community get
>> involved in this for similarly self-interested reasons.
>> 
>> I understand there are some bad feelings toward IBM.  Basically, there is
>> the perception that IBM has been taking OpenOffice code all of these years
>> and contributing little back to the OpenOffice community.  That is probably
>> true.  As far as I can see, IBM has at least been taking much more than it
>> has given back.  I'm not sure that can continue though, because as the
>> champion of the proposed Apache OpenOffice project, IBM is going to have to
>> contribute.
>> 
>> So you might say though, why not just sit back, let IBM make contributions
>> to Apache OpenOffice, and then we'll just cherry pick what we want for
>> LibreOffice.  Well that would certainly work, but I don't think it would
>> work as well as getting involved.
>> 
>> There is also another player in this, and that is the Apache Software
>> Foundation.  The ASF is an honorable organ

Re: [tdf-discuss] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Chaosun]

当前OOo的现状。主要从ASF和IBM角度来看。

- Original Message - 
From: "Allen Pulsifer" 
To: ; 
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 10:06 AM
Subject: [tdf-discuss] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice


> Greetings All,
> 
> Some of you will remember me as a long time member of the OpenOffice.org
> community.  In fact, back in the day, it was sometimes just myself and
> Michael Meeks who were openly complaining on the OOo mailing list about
> Sun's handling of the "community" :-)
> 
> I'm writing today about what is going on over at the Apache project.  When I
> heard Oracle was donating the OpenOffice code to the Apache project, I
> headed over there to see what was going on.  I offer this brief report to
> bring everyone up to speed:
> 
> - According to officers of the Apache Software Foundation, Oracle donated
> OpenOffice to the ASF by executing the ASF's standard copyright grant.  This
> grant allows the ASF to release the OpenOffice code under the Apache
> License.
> 
> - The ASF however has a process to accept a project.  The OpenOffice project
> is now in the proposal stage.  If accepted, it will join the Apache
> Incubator and become a "podling", which is basically a
> project-in-development.  During the podling stage, the project would be
> expected to complete the steps needed to become a full ASF project.  Among
> other requirements, the podling project has to review the copyright history
> of all code to ensure it has a clean "title" and is or can be licensed under
> the Apache License.  If it completes that process, it then becomes a full
> Apache project.  See
> https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/incubation_at_apache_what_s
> 
> - While the code donation was made by Oracle, the primary champion in the
> effort to get the code accepted as is Apache Project is IBM.  Let's have no
> illusions or delusions about this.  IBM has a self-interested motive in
> championing this project.  Basically, IBM would like to setup a community
> where both it and other contributors make contributions under the Apache
> License, and then IBM would take some or all of those contributions and use
> them in its proprietary products which includes for example IBM Lotus
> Symphony.  The Apache License specifically allows this.  In fact, the Apache
> License allows anyone to take the code and use it in their own project, open
> source or closed source.  In the Apache world, that is considered a feature
> not a bug.  The ASF would like to see as many people using the code as
> possible, and for that reason, their license is as liberal as possible,
> allowing anyone to use the code.  That is exactly the reason that IBM is
> championing this as an Apache Project, rather than a LGPL project.
> 
> And that brings me (almost) to the point of this email.  Any code
> contributed to the Apache OpenOffice project could be used by anyone,
> including The Document Foundation, which can take the code, integrate it
> into LibreOffice, and release it under the LGPL.  Sounds like a good deal,
> huh?
> 
> Here's the rub.  IBM, as I mentioned, is doing this for self-interested
> reasons.  I would like to propose the members of LibreOffice community get
> involved in this for similarly self-interested reasons.
> 
> I understand there are some bad feelings toward IBM.  Basically, there is
> the perception that IBM has been taking OpenOffice code all of these years
> and contributing little back to the OpenOffice community.  That is probably
> true.  As far as I can see, IBM has at least been taking much more than it
> has given back.  I'm not sure that can continue though, because as the
> champion of the proposed Apache OpenOffice project, IBM is going to have to
> contribute.
> 
> So you might say though, why not just sit back, let IBM make contributions
> to Apache OpenOffice, and then we'll just cherry pick what we want for
> LibreOffice.  Well that would certainly work, but I don't think it would
> work as well as getting involved.
> 
> There is also another player in this, and that is the Apache Software
> Foundation.  The ASF is an honorable organization with a long track record
> in open source and they are dedicated to fostering a community.  In the ASF,
> anyone can contribute.  Contributions and participation are made by
> individuals, not by or on behalf of companies or organizations.  The
> community determines the direction of the project.  Membership in the
> community is based on merit, which is measured not just by code
> contributions, but by anything that supports the project, which could also
> include documentation, testing, bug reports, etc.
> 
> So while the LibreOffice could just sit back and cherry-pick the

Re: [Libreoffice] [tdf-discuss] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Marvin Humphrey]

Hello,

I'm new here, and I'll only be around for a little while, but I hope it will
be a pleasant visit.

I make my living writing open source search engine software which lives at the
ASF -- Apache Lucy, an incubating project.  I was recently invited to join the
Incubator PMC and accepted, but beyond that and my position on the Apache Lucy
PPMC (Podling Project Management Committee), I don't have any special
authority within the ASF.

I have too many ongoing obligations to participate in OO.o, and have no stake
in the project.  I'm here as an individual volunteer to help everybody out by
picking the low-hanging fruit and responding to easy questions about the ASF
and the Incubator.  Don't take me for an ASF rep -- I'm just some dude on a
mailing list offering unverified info and links.

Michael Meeks wrote:

>  + if we wait, do we risk getting locked out ?  

No.  Merit will always be recognized and new committers accepted.

>  + after the incubation proposal is accepted is
>it possible to become a committer ?

Becoming a new committer prior to the acceptance of an Incubator podling
merely requires adding your name on the wiki proposal page (in this case,
).  Typically people will
also introduce themselves on the gene...@incubator.apache.org list in the
proposal discussion thread and get a "Welcome aboard!" reply from the
proposal's Champion or somebody else, but the formal requirement is being
listed in the proposal when the Incubator PMC votes on it.

After the podling gets going, you have to demonstrate merit and pass a vote
held by the PPMC, which is then ratified by a lazy consensus vote of the
Incubator PMC.

After a podling graduates and becomes a top-level Apache project, becoming a
committer requires a vote by the project's PMC.

So there is, in fact, some benefit to signing up now because the bureaucratic
hurdles are lower.  However, most podlings are eager to increase the diversity
of their committer ranks and the amount of merit you have to demonstrate
before being invited in is pretty low.  I would expect an OO.o podling to be
even more welcoming than most.

>  + will people with relevant experience, contribution and
>merit find it possible to become committers later ?

Absolutely.

You also don't need to worry about IBM or anybody else dominating the PMC and
calling the shots.  If there was ever an attempt to deny someone with merit
committership for political reasons, someone within the project would raise
the issue with the Board, and there would be hell to pay.  The Board answers
to the Members, of which there are 300-400, all participating as individuals
with a strong investment in preserving the ASF's vendor-neutral stance.

http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#hats

Individuals compose the ASF

All of the ASF including the board, the other officers, the committers, and 
the
members, are participating as individuals. That is one strength of the ASF,
affiliations do not cloud the personal contributions.

Unless they specifically state otherwise, whatever they post on any mailing
list is done as themselves. It is the individual point-of-view, wearing 
their
personal hat and not as a mouthpiece for whatever company happens to be 
signing
their paychecks right now, and not even as a director of the ASF.

All of those ASF people implicitly have multiple hats, especially the Board,
the other officers, and the PMC chairs. They sometimes need to talk about a
matter of policy, so to avoid appearing to be expressing a personal opinion,
they will state that they are talking in their special capacity. However, 
most
of the time this is not necessary, personal opinions work well.

Hope this helps,

Marvin Humphrey


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Re: [Libreoffice] [tdf-discuss] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Greg,

First - welcome to the list :-) we appreciate more hackers taking an
interest in LibreOffice of course and really good to have you here.
Patches most welcome too BTW :-)

On Sat, 2011-06-04 at 00:21 -0400, Greg Stein wrote:
> Sure... I can also answer questions, and would be more than happy to
> do that. In any discussion threads that may pop up, about the Apache
> work, I'll also attempt to fill in blanks where I see them.

Great - there is quite a big one here; Rob's blog's characterisation of
Apache (pwrt. the advantages of 'getting in on the ground floor') has
been interpreted by many as ASF rewarding people who join early
disproportionately to their merit (as and against new people joining
'late') :-) I don't think that is Apache's intention or practise. Alan
picked up on earlier on the list with (excerpted):

On Sat, 2011-06-04 at 09:08 -0400, Allen Pulsifer wrote:
> I do know this however.  There is currently an open invitation for us to get
> involved.  If we get involved, we can have a say in with direction of the
> project.
 ...
> If we wait however, we risk being locked out.  The open invitation is get
> involved is only valid for during the incubation proposal stage.  After
> that, we will need "prove our merit" and approval to become a member.  So if
> you sign up now, it is no risk and no obligation.
 ...
> But the time to jump in is now.  We can't wait. 

So the questions are:

+ if we wait, do we risk getting locked out ?
+ after the incubation proposal is accepted is
  it possible to become a committer ?
+ will people with relevant experience, contribution and
  merit find it possible to become committers later ?

You see my answers on the list - I think Apache stays open and does it
right, as a meritocracy, always :-) but it'd be good to back that with
your authority and clear this up. The ground-floor stuff it seems can
easily be twisted into a threat to exclude people that don't join day
one :-)

Thanks,

Michael.

-- 
 michael.me...@novell.com  <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Olav Dahlum]

On 04/06/11 06:21, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 22:06, Allen Pulsifer  wrote:
>> ...
>> Some of you may have noticed that Greg Stein, a member of the Apache
>> Software Foundation Board of Directors has joined this list and offered to
>> answer any questions.  Please feel free to ask him about anything that is on
>> your mind.  He would be a better person to answer, since I'm new to all this
>> Apache stuff myself :-)
> 
> Thanks for the great email, Allen, and for the shout-out. Yes, I'm
> here listening. Most people at Apache are not familiar with this
> community, and so I feel it is important to listen and lurk here to
> get a better understanding. Sure... I can also answer questions, and
> would be more than happy to do that. In any discussion threads that
> may pop up, about the Apache work, I'll also attempt to fill in blanks
> where I see them.
> 
> Cheers,
> -g
> 

Most of us do indeed like to retain the ownership ourselves, but I don't
personally have any problems with reusing my translations etc in software.

People take great pride in contributing and want to be credited for what
they achieve. You might want to clarify the situation for the sceptics,
who don't want their code lost in some proprietary project not acknowledging
their work, but rather claiming it as their own.

Regards,
Olav Dahlum

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Greg Stein]

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 22:06, Allen Pulsifer  wrote:
>...
> Some of you may have noticed that Greg Stein, a member of the Apache
> Software Foundation Board of Directors has joined this list and offered to
> answer any questions.  Please feel free to ask him about anything that is on
> your mind.  He would be a better person to answer, since I'm new to all this
> Apache stuff myself :-)

Thanks for the great email, Allen, and for the shout-out. Yes, I'm
here listening. Most people at Apache are not familiar with this
community, and so I feel it is important to listen and lurk here to
get a better understanding. Sure... I can also answer questions, and
would be more than happy to do that. In any discussion threads that
may pop up, about the Apache work, I'll also attempt to fill in blanks
where I see them.

Cheers,
-g

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[tdf-discuss] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice

[Allen Pulsifer]

Greetings All,

Some of you will remember me as a long time member of the OpenOffice.org
community.  In fact, back in the day, it was sometimes just myself and
Michael Meeks who were openly complaining on the OOo mailing list about
Sun's handling of the "community" :-)

I'm writing today about what is going on over at the Apache project.  When I
heard Oracle was donating the OpenOffice code to the Apache project, I
headed over there to see what was going on.  I offer this brief report to
bring everyone up to speed:

- According to officers of the Apache Software Foundation, Oracle donated
OpenOffice to the ASF by executing the ASF's standard copyright grant.  This
grant allows the ASF to release the OpenOffice code under the Apache
License.

- The ASF however has a process to accept a project.  The OpenOffice project
is now in the proposal stage.  If accepted, it will join the Apache
Incubator and become a "podling", which is basically a
project-in-development.  During the podling stage, the project would be
expected to complete the steps needed to become a full ASF project.  Among
other requirements, the podling project has to review the copyright history
of all code to ensure it has a clean "title" and is or can be licensed under
the Apache License.  If it completes that process, it then becomes a full
Apache project.  See
https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/incubation_at_apache_what_s

- While the code donation was made by Oracle, the primary champion in the
effort to get the code accepted as is Apache Project is IBM.  Let's have no
illusions or delusions about this.  IBM has a self-interested motive in
championing this project.  Basically, IBM would like to setup a community
where both it and other contributors make contributions under the Apache
License, and then IBM would take some or all of those contributions and use
them in its proprietary products which includes for example IBM Lotus
Symphony.  The Apache License specifically allows this.  In fact, the Apache
License allows anyone to take the code and use it in their own project, open
source or closed source.  In the Apache world, that is considered a feature
not a bug.  The ASF would like to see as many people using the code as
possible, and for that reason, their license is as liberal as possible,
allowing anyone to use the code.  That is exactly the reason that IBM is
championing this as an Apache Project, rather than a LGPL project.

And that brings me (almost) to the point of this email.  Any code
contributed to the Apache OpenOffice project could be used by anyone,
including The Document Foundation, which can take the code, integrate it
into LibreOffice, and release it under the LGPL.  Sounds like a good deal,
huh?

Here's the rub.  IBM, as I mentioned, is doing this for self-interested
reasons.  I would like to propose the members of LibreOffice community get
involved in this for similarly self-interested reasons.

I understand there are some bad feelings toward IBM.  Basically, there is
the perception that IBM has been taking OpenOffice code all of these years
and contributing little back to the OpenOffice community.  That is probably
true.  As far as I can see, IBM has at least been taking much more than it
has given back.  I'm not sure that can continue though, because as the
champion of the proposed Apache OpenOffice project, IBM is going to have to
contribute.

So you might say though, why not just sit back, let IBM make contributions
to Apache OpenOffice, and then we'll just cherry pick what we want for
LibreOffice.  Well that would certainly work, but I don't think it would
work as well as getting involved.

There is also another player in this, and that is the Apache Software
Foundation.  The ASF is an honorable organization with a long track record
in open source and they are dedicated to fostering a community.  In the ASF,
anyone can contribute.  Contributions and participation are made by
individuals, not by or on behalf of companies or organizations.  The
community determines the direction of the project.  Membership in the
community is based on merit, which is measured not just by code
contributions, but by anything that supports the project, which could also
include documentation, testing, bug reports, etc.

So while the LibreOffice could just sit back and cherry-pick the project, if
its members get involved, they can help determine the direction of the
project, ensuring that the project direction and design decision are
compatible with LibreOffice and have the maximum value to LibreOffice.  The
ASF has no problems with this--in fact, they encourage it.  Just as IBM is
getting involved in an Apache OpenOffice project because they want to use
the code in their products, the ASF will welcome TDF members getting
involved for the same self-interested reason, to use the code in
LibreOffice.

Critically, at this stage in the process, everyone has a "free pass" to get
involved.  Normally, once the project is up and running, yo