Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[toki]

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On 29/04/2011 16:03, Ian Lynch wrote:

>> Those reliant of distant web servers without no knowledge of data security 
>> employed by service providers are being naive.
> Most people are not going to worry about it if it works for them and is more 
> convenient and competition between suppliers will ensure it is.

In the last year, virtually every vendor in the cloud space arena has
reported system outages.  Outages that have lasted for up to a week.

At some point people will realize that the cloud is not the magic bullet
that it is being sold as.

> And IBM said there would only be a need for maybe 4 computers in the world.

The context of that statement was projected sales for that year.
The rest of the statement --- which is almost universally ignored --- is
about the expenses involved in computer access.

> The future is mobile and cloud and will include local storage but
probably not for running office suites like MSO, OOo, LO etc.

Security requirements will always make running an office suite on a
system one controls mandatory.

jonathon
- -- 
If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting.

If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth
requesting.

  DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw.
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Isaac Hummel]

On 04/29/2011 05:54 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:

I don't know what lists you have seen but I've seen quite a number of
looong threads with highly involved posts and equally involved replies.
IMO forums, texting, and twitter appeal to younger users with their
shorter attention spans.

Also, the quality of the answers/help is usually greater on lists than
in forums.

Did it ever occur to you that this 25(?) year old technology is good enough
to have survived that long?

The reason that you get long threads and highly involved posts in 
mailing lists is that mailing lists attract more savvy users. The hoi 
polloi usually don't use them, except to complain about how difficult it 
is to unsubscribe (see the LibreOffice-Users list). Ditto for why 
answers are often better. You get a better signal-to-noise ratio and the 
people asking the questions are on average better at it, which is always 
an aid to getting better help.


If LibreOffice merely wants to be a little niche project for open source 
purists, then mailing list-only makes sense. If they want to replace 
OpenOffice.org, then that won't do. You need both.


--
Isaac Hummel
is...@daedaleus.com
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Robert Holtzman]

On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 05:47:34PM +0200, Pieter E. Zanstra wrote:
> > From: e-letter [mailto:inp...@gmail.com] 
> > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:34 PM
> > To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> > Subject: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
> > 
> > What's wrong with reading mailing list messages in digest 
> > mode and going to the searchable archive as and when appropriate.
> 
> Because people never keep focus in email, texting and twitter. Those 
> are the worst tools to support a group process. This 25 years old 
> technology should have long been abandoned in favour of more knowledge 
> based tools for a collaboration.

I don't know what lists you have seen but I've seen quite a number of
looong threads with highly involved posts and equally involved replies.
IMO forums, texting, and twitter appeal to younger users with their
shorter attention spans.

Also, the quality of the answers/help is usually greater on lists than
in forums.

Did it ever occur to you that this 25(?) year old technology is good enough
to have survived that long?

> 
> Having watched this space for a month or so, I am about to sign off.

Toodles

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Isaac Hummel]

On 04/29/2011 11:33 AM, e-letter wrote:

Not sure that a web forum suddenly makes the use of LO more appealing
to "non-geeks"

What's wrong with reading mailing list messages in digest mode and
going to the searchable archive as and when appropriate.

Has the been a poll on mailing list against forum?

Regardless of the result, "non-geeks" should be encouraged to
understand the benefits of a mailing list, similarly to explaining LO
compared to m$o...

I don't know of any scientific studies on the matter, unfortunately. 
Speaking from anecdotal evidence, though, mailing lists tend to be 
attached to open source and other techie projects, or to niche groups 
that are too small to justify setting up a web forum. Otherwise web 
forums dominate. Larger open source projects tend to have both forums 
(for the general userbase) and mailing lists (for the more technically 
oriented crowd of users and for those working directly on the project), 
bearing out my (admittedly unscientific) observation.


I think this is because mailing lists have a higher barrier to entry. 
You need to subscribe to them to experience them the way they ought to 
be experienced. The archives are very bare bones and don't thread the 
conversations (which is also why I don't like digest mode; I want 
messages grouped according to subject, not the day they were sent, and I 
prefer it done three-dimensionally like Thunderbird's threading does). 
Okay, the Mail-archive.com ones do do threading, but they still only 
display only one message at a time (unlike a web forum) and you have to 
use the mouse to go forward and back, unlike in Thunderbird where you 
can navigate with the keyboard very adroitly.


I much prefer my mailing list setup to any forum, but that's part of the 
problem: it's my setup. A user's experience with a mailing list depends 
heavily on what that user brings to the table. With a web forum, it'll 
be the same for everyone who isn't using an ancient browser. Making the 
general office software-using populace learn to love mailing lists in 
order to discuss and get help with LibreOffice problems seems to be a 
totally unnecessary increase in LibreOffice's barrier to entry.


--
Isaac Hummel
is...@daedaleus.com
http://daedaleus.isaachummel.com


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Ian Lynch]

On 29 April 2011 16:33, e-letter  wrote:

> >As I said, I'm sure Bill Gates said leave those toy phones to Nokia, RIM
> and
> >Apple. Google seem to have been smarter. As mobile and web technologies
> take
> >over I can see much harder times ahead for anyone dependent on local
> >dependencies.
> >
>
> Those reliant of distant web servers without no knowledge of data
> security employed by service providers are being naive.


So do you worry about your electricity generation and have a backup
generator at home just in case? Most people are not going to worry about it
if it works for them and is more convenient and competition between
suppliers will ensure it is.

At least
> retrieved data onto a local hard disk drive allows data to be in more
> tangible control.
>

And IBM said there would only be a need for maybe 4 computers in the world.
Look at the trends. Apple just overtook MS in sales and profitability last
quarter. That tells us something about the way things are moving.

Hard drives are looking decidedly dated technologies for individual users -
even my netbook is now all solid state. Mechanical devices will be too
expensive to manufacture, too delicate and consume too much power. The
future is mobile and cloud and will include local storage but probably not
for running office suites like MSO, OOo, LO etc.

-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications
The Schools ITQ

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Pieter, *,

Pieter E. Zanstra schrieb:
> From: e-letter [mailto:inp...@gmail.com]

>> What's wrong with reading mailing list messages in digest
>> mode and going to the searchable archive as and when appropriate.

> Because people never keep focus in email, texting and twitter. Those
> are the worst tools to support a group process. This 25 years old
> technology should have long been abandoned in favour of more
> knowledge based tools for a collaboration.

Statements as above  hit the thumb instead of the nail - causing the
corresponding (re)sentiments. :o))

> Having watched this space for a month or so, I am about to sign off.

I can't hold You.

Maybe it's to hard for some people here to read single opinions as
opinions instead of facts and to stand opinions different from the own
ones.

Apparently live is like that..

Have a nice time.

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images


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RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Pieter E. Zanstra]

> From: e-letter [mailto:inp...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:34 PM
> To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> Subject: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
> 
> What's wrong with reading mailing list messages in digest 
> mode and going to the searchable archive as and when appropriate.

Because people never keep focus in email, texting and twitter. Those are the 
worst tools to support a group process. This 25 years old technology should 
have long been abandoned in favour of more knowledge based tools for a 
collaboration.

Having watched this space for a month or so, I am about to sign off.
 


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[e-letter]

>As I said, I'm sure Bill Gates said leave those toy phones to Nokia, RIM and
>Apple. Google seem to have been smarter. As mobile and web technologies take
>over I can see much harder times ahead for anyone dependent on local
>dependencies.
>

Those reliant of distant web servers without no knowledge of data
security employed by service providers are being naive. At least
retrieved data onto a local hard disk drive allows data to be in more
tangible control.

>On 04/18/2011 03:11 PM, RGB ES wrote:
>> Well, even if I'd said that the ancient forums vs mailing lists war
>> was not the point but *what people use*, the forums vs. mailing lists
>> useless fight came again...
>> At first I was tempted to refer how the English forums have near 200
>> new message each day and talk about the madness it would be to receive
>> near 200 mails each day. I was tempted to talk about how I'm giving
>> on-line support to users since a long time (I started using computers
>> more than 25 years ago) and justify the fact that I know quite well
>> the advantages and disadvantages of every possible communication
>> system in use for the last 20 years... Many things...
>> But I'm giving up.
>> Have a nice day!
>> And don't worry to answer me, I'm unsubscribing from the mailing list.
>>
>I do agree that, whatever their limitations, forums are the discussion =
>
>platform of the masses and LibreOffice needs to form a community that =
>
>includes the non-geek populace if it is to become the premier version of =
>

Not sure that a web forum suddenly makes the use of LO more appealing
to "non-geeks"

What's wrong with reading mailing list messages in digest mode and
going to the searchable archive as and when appropriate.

Has the been a poll on mailing list against forum?

Regardless of the result, "non-geeks" should be encouraged to
understand the benefits of a mailing list, similarly to explaining LO
compared to m$o...

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Isaac Hummel]

On 04/18/2011 03:11 PM, RGB ES wrote:

Well, even if I'd said that the ancient forums vs mailing lists war
was not the point but *what people use*, the forums vs. mailing lists
useless fight came again...
At first I was tempted to refer how the English forums have near 200
new message each day and talk about the madness it would be to receive
near 200 mails each day. I was tempted to talk about how I'm giving
on-line support to users since a long time (I started using computers
more than 25 years ago) and justify the fact that I know quite well
the advantages and disadvantages of every possible communication
system in use for the last 20 years... Many things...
But I'm giving up.
Have a nice day!
And don't worry to answer me, I'm unsubscribing from the mailing list.

I do agree that, whatever their limitations, forums are the discussion 
platform of the masses and LibreOffice needs to form a community that 
includes the non-geek populace if it is to become the premier version of 
OpenOffice/Star Office. However, in this day and age 200 mails a day is 
hardly madness. Not when all major free email accounts have gigabytes of 
storage and the ability to filter mailing lists into their own 
label/folder, and when Thunderbird is able to handle a folder of 15000+ 
messages without breaking a sweat even on an antiquated machine like 
mine (Pentium 4 with 640 megs of ram).


--
Isaac Hummel
is...@daedaleus.com
http://daedaleus.isaachummel.com


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Simos Xenitellis]

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 7:28 AM,   wrote:
>>>How about the issue that I mentioned earlier?
>>>
>>>At http://www.sitedossier.com/ip/174.121.218.38 it
>>>shows that there are 858 websites hosted at the
>>>same dedicated server as LibreOfficeForum.org.
>
> Hi again,
>
> Yes, I am using a shared hosting platform. I never claimed otherwise. I
> have used DownTownHost shared hosting for several years now, and I have
> been extremely satisfied with the speed and reliability. It's definitely
> good enough for a newly starting low-traffic forum, and if traffic were to
> ever go through the roof I could always upgrade to a dedicated server. I
> have no idea how they have their server farm set up or how many sites are
> running behind that public IP, etc. But I assume that you realize that the
> other sites you linked to are NOT mine? I administer precisely one other
> site on this server related to a hobby, no more, no less. Sorry if I sound
> terse or offended. I'm not. But I do want to set the facts straight.
>

I got the impression from your initial post (you mentioned
that «Good hosting is not cheap») that you had a dedicated server,
and I assumed you were the owner of this shared hosting business.

It is good that this issue is now clear. It helps to discuss things first
when taking initiatives.

Simos

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[James Wilde]

Thanks Drew, that's good enough for me.

On Apr 27, 2011, at 18:12 , drew wrote:

> On Wed, 2011-04-27 at 17:55 +0200, James Wilde wrote:
>> On Apr 26, 2011, at 18:57 , David Nelson wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Sam,
>>> 
>>> I regretfully have to inform you that I had to remove the link to the
>>> LibreOfficeForum.org site at the request of Drew Jensen seconded by
>>> Charles Schulz. Sorry about that. Personally, I have no issues with
>>> your site.
>>> 
>>> I think Drew is willing to debate the matter. Maybe a solution could
>>> be found? Would removing the advertising be a possibility?
>>> 
>>> Anyway, just to keep you informed...
>>> 
>> I don't know whether I've missed something coming to this thread late, but 
>> is there an explanation of why they requested that the link be removed?
> 
> Hi James,
> 
> That would best come from me perhaps.
> 
> The reason is actually rather simple - during this discussion it was
> apparent that a number of people where strongly opposed to linking
> directly to that forum. I do not think anyone would say that any type of
> agreement let alone consensus had been reached.
> 
> while this was going one of the people with edit rights to the main web
> pages added links to the site, without I believe realizing that this was
> being discussed still.
> 
> My asking that person to remove the link should be construed as meaning
> that the action was not appropriate at this time.
> 
> Beyond that I would like to make a few comments more directly to a few
> points raised, but they would be best added to the emails in which they
> were raised and I will do so as time permits during the day.
> 
> I hope that answers your question on the specific point.
> 
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Drew Jensen
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[sb73542]

>>How about the issue that I mentioned earlier?
>>
>>At http://www.sitedossier.com/ip/174.121.218.38 it
>>shows that there are 858 websites hosted at the
>>same dedicated server as LibreOfficeForum.org.

Hi again,

Yes, I am using a shared hosting platform. I never claimed otherwise. I
have used DownTownHost shared hosting for several years now, and I have
been extremely satisfied with the speed and reliability. It's definitely
good enough for a newly starting low-traffic forum, and if traffic were to
ever go through the roof I could always upgrade to a dedicated server. I
have no idea how they have their server farm set up or how many sites are
running behind that public IP, etc. But I assume that you realize that the
other sites you linked to are NOT mine? I administer precisely one other
site on this server related to a hobby, no more, no less. Sorry if I sound
terse or offended. I'm not. But I do want to set the facts straight.

Thanks,
Sam from LibreOfficeForum


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Jon Hamkins]

On 04/26/2011 09:57 AM, David Nelson wrote:

Hi Sam,

I regretfully have to inform you that I had to remove the link to the
LibreOfficeForum.org site at the request of Drew Jensen seconded by
Charles Schulz.


+1

I appreciate the effort Sam has made to create libreofficeforum.org. 
Like Sam, I feel that the general user community prefers forums to 
mailing lists, and that a well-implemented forum can really help grow 
the libreoffice community and provide a sense that the project is 
well-supported.  I also firmly believe that having an easy and 
recognizable URL is important -- oooforum won't work in the long-term.


Unfortunately, Sam made several poor choices in setting up 
libreofficeforum.org.


First, he apparently didn't discuss with the community at large (on the 
mailing lists) or the steering committee about what would make a good 
forum -- he just announced to the mailing list, in the first week of 
Oct. 2010, that he had created libreofficeforum.org.  It was set up the 
way he set it up, and that was that.  Several "what the...?" comments 
were made at the time, especially since the site had several flaws.


People have complained about the ads from day 1.  People have complained 
about MSO being advertised.  People have also said that they will not 
provide support on this site because of this.  As for me, well, I agree 
with these complaints 100%.  This is like selling candy to raise money 
for a tooth-decay foundation.  It makes no sense, and it creates a 
mixed-up message where the message should be very clear.


Sam said he needs to have ads, and he doesn't want to discuss the issue 
of ads here.  I'm sorry, but that is the major problem with the site. 
That issue needs to be hashed out, if not here, by the Steering 
Committee.  If the site needs to have ads, then we don't need the site, 
IMHO.  I'd much rather live with http://www.oooforum.org and

http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum in the short-term.

In any case, I think we oughtn't link to libreofficeforum.org from the 
official LibO site until we either reach consensus here on the mailing 
list, or the Steering Committee has come to a decision.


 Jon

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Ben McGinnes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 28/04/11 12:40 AM, Simos Xenitellis wrote:
>
> How about the issue that I mentioned earlier?
>
> At http://www.sitedossier.com/ip/174.121.218.38 it shows that there
> are 858 websites hosted at the same dedicated server as
> LibreOfficeForum.org.

*Sigh*

bash-3.2$ dig -x 174.121.218.38

; <<>> DiG 9.4.3-P3 <<>> -x 174.121.218.38
;; global options:  printcmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 51994
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;38.218.121.174.in-addr.arpa.   IN  PTR

;; ANSWER SECTION:
38.218.121.174.in-addr.arpa. 43154 IN   PTR 26.da.79ae.static.theplanet.com.

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
218.121.174.in-addr.arpa. 43154 IN  NS  ns2.theplanet.com.
218.121.174.in-addr.arpa. 43154 IN  NS  ns1.theplanet.com.

;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
ns1.theplanet.com.  3069IN  A   207.218.247.135
ns2.theplanet.com.  39823   IN  A   207.218.223.162

;; Query time: 32 msec
;; SERVER: 192.231.203.132#53(192.231.203.132)
;; WHEN: Thu Apr 28 09:35:03 2011
;; MSG SIZE  rcvd: 158

bash-3.2$

Oh, gosh, what a surprise a free forum hosted on a shared hosting
platform using virtual hosting/domains.

If you want that site to have a dedicated IP, perhaps you should speak
to the domain owner about funding a move to a VPS or colocated box.


Regards,
Ben


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[drew]

On Wed, 2011-04-27 at 17:55 +0200, James Wilde wrote:
> On Apr 26, 2011, at 18:57 , David Nelson wrote:
> 
> > Hi Sam,
> > 
> > I regretfully have to inform you that I had to remove the link to the
> > LibreOfficeForum.org site at the request of Drew Jensen seconded by
> > Charles Schulz. Sorry about that. Personally, I have no issues with
> > your site.
> > 
> > I think Drew is willing to debate the matter. Maybe a solution could
> > be found? Would removing the advertising be a possibility?
> > 
> > Anyway, just to keep you informed...
> > 
> I don't know whether I've missed something coming to this thread late, but is 
> there an explanation of why they requested that the link be removed?

Hi James,

That would best come from me perhaps.

The reason is actually rather simple - during this discussion it was
apparent that a number of people where strongly opposed to linking
directly to that forum. I do not think anyone would say that any type of
agreement let alone consensus had been reached.

while this was going one of the people with edit rights to the main web
pages added links to the site, without I believe realizing that this was
being discussed still.

My asking that person to remove the link should be construed as meaning
that the action was not appropriate at this time.

Beyond that I would like to make a few comments more directly to a few
points raised, but they would be best added to the emails in which they
were raised and I will do so as time permits during the day.

I hope that answers your question on the specific point.


Best wishes,

Drew Jensen




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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[James Wilde]

On Apr 26, 2011, at 18:57 , David Nelson wrote:

> Hi Sam,
> 
> I regretfully have to inform you that I had to remove the link to the
> LibreOfficeForum.org site at the request of Drew Jensen seconded by
> Charles Schulz. Sorry about that. Personally, I have no issues with
> your site.
> 
> I think Drew is willing to debate the matter. Maybe a solution could
> be found? Would removing the advertising be a possibility?
> 
> Anyway, just to keep you informed...
> 
I don't know whether I've missed something coming to this thread late, but is 
there an explanation of why they requested that the link be removed?

//James


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Simos Xenitellis]

On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 8:13 AM,   wrote:
> Hi again,
>
> Thanks to everyone who has expressed a balanced, objective opinion about
> this.
>
> I don't want to spend a lot time here arguing about ads. I understand that
> it's a sensitive subject, I'm sorry that some people disagree, and I
> respect their opinions. But I would like to mention that I don't really
> have any control over the ad content, that is determined by Google. That
> being said, It seems rather strange to refer to Microsoft Office as
> "competition" and to show such a level of contempt toward it. I personally
> do not own, use, or even like Microsoft Office. But it isn't a taboo,
> shady, spammy, startup job. Like it or not, it's the industry standard
> still, and will continue to be so for a long time. Irrational hatred and
> attempts to obliterate all references to Microsoft or any other commercial
> project are counterproductive and don't seem to agree with the free spirit
> around LibreOffice. I have made a conscientious, informed, intelligent
> decision to use LibreOffice instead of Microsoft Office, and no amount of
> forum ads will sway me. I would hope and expect that most other users of
> the forum will likewise have the presence of mind to make a rational
> decision based on their own needs.
>

How about the issue that I mentioned earlier?

At http://www.sitedossier.com/ip/174.121.218.38 it shows that there
are 858 websites
hosted at the same dedicated server as LibreOfficeForum.org.

Examples include:
http://www.1dayacuvuemoistreviews.com/ Ad website for Acuvue
products (contact lenses)
http://1dayacuvuereviews.com(ditto)
http://www.acuvueadvanceforastigmatismreviews.com/
http://www.acuvueadvancereviews.com/
http://www.acuvuebifocalreviews.com/
http://www.acuvuecontactlensreviews.com/
http://www.acuvueoasysforastigmatismreviews.com/
http://www.acuvueoasysforpresbyopiareviews.com/
http://www.1luv2ya.com/(I have no idea what this is about)
http://proxyblind.org/   (Free Anonymous Proxy)
http://www.chinatradestudy.com/   (Unnamed website carrying Reuters stories)
http://carsbuysell.ca/  (Classified ads, almost
empty website)
http://www.awm-search-engine-optimization.co.uk/   (redirects to SEO website)

And LibreOfficeForum.org is at No 238 in the list.

Apart from the ads that you have on LibreOfficeForum.org you also benefit
from the increase in the ranking by Google for all the websites, due
to hosting LibreOfficeForum.org.

What's the business plan in running the dedicated server at
174.121.218.38 and how does LibreOfficeForum.org
fit to all these?

It makes it quite uncomfortable to host a free and open-source project
on an ad-supported platform.
With what I currently know, I would opt for no association to
LibreOfficeForum.org.

Simos

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Jaime R. Garza]

On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 07:13,  wrote:

> Hi again,
>
> Thanks to everyone who has expressed a balanced, objective opinion about
> this.
>
> I don't want to spend a lot time here arguing about ads. I understand that
> it's a sensitive subject, I'm sorry that some people disagree, and I
> respect their opinions. But I would like to mention that I don't really
> have any control over the ad content, that is determined by Google. That
> being said, It seems rather strange to refer to Microsoft Office as
> "competition" and to show such a level of contempt toward it. I personally
> do not own, use, or even like Microsoft Office. But it isn't a taboo,
> shady, spammy, startup job. Like it or not, it's the industry standard
> still, and will continue to be so for a long time. Irrational hatred and
> attempts to obliterate all references to Microsoft or any other commercial
> project are counterproductive and don't seem to agree with the free spirit
> around LibreOffice. I have made a conscientious, informed, intelligent
> decision to use LibreOffice instead of Microsoft Office, and no amount of
> forum ads will sway me. I would hope and expect that most other users of
> the forum will likewise have the presence of mind to make a rational
> decision based on their own needs.
>
> That's all for now. Thanks for reading!
> Sam from LibreOfficeForum.org


Well, there is a Competitive Ad
Filterfor
Google Ads, so that's not an excuse. It sould be just silly if there
was
no possibility to filter competitors. And just to clarify, MS Office is
still the defacto standard, and The Document Foundation Community and
LibreOffice community want to change that. Do you really think you help the
cause by advertising MS Office? Your moral arguments are just not realistic,
we all live in the real world, and competition exists!!

Cheers!

Jaime

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[sb73542]

Hi again,

Thanks to everyone who has expressed a balanced, objective opinion about
this.

I don't want to spend a lot time here arguing about ads. I understand that
it's a sensitive subject, I'm sorry that some people disagree, and I
respect their opinions. But I would like to mention that I don't really
have any control over the ad content, that is determined by Google. That
being said, It seems rather strange to refer to Microsoft Office as
"competition" and to show such a level of contempt toward it. I personally
do not own, use, or even like Microsoft Office. But it isn't a taboo,
shady, spammy, startup job. Like it or not, it's the industry standard
still, and will continue to be so for a long time. Irrational hatred and
attempts to obliterate all references to Microsoft or any other commercial
project are counterproductive and don't seem to agree with the free spirit
around LibreOffice. I have made a conscientious, informed, intelligent
decision to use LibreOffice instead of Microsoft Office, and no amount of
forum ads will sway me. I would hope and expect that most other users of
the forum will likewise have the presence of mind to make a rational
decision based on their own needs.

That's all for now. Thanks for reading!
Sam from LibreOfficeForum.org


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 12:13 AM, toki  wrote:
> On 25/04/2011 08:44, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
>
>> It is OK if it has a paypal or whatever donate link to explicitly
> cover the costs of running the server (but it must be clear that this
>
> You do realize that the organization that puts up the "donation link"
> has to register in each of the fifty states of the united states, and
> each of the thirteen provinces and territories of Canada, and each
> country in Europe, and each overseas province of France, etc, or face
> possible civil or criminal prosecution, or both, in the respective
> political entity in which they failed to register, don't you?

No, and I'd be really surprised if this was true. But you surely have
some documents to prove that claim, don't you?

(and when I wrote donation above, it should be clear that I don't mean
tax-decountability or other special stuff).

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Andy Brown]

Simos Xenitellis wrote:

On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:50 PM,  wrote:


Hi everyone,

I am the creator of LibreOfficeForum.org. I'd just like to set a few
things straight.

...



2. Ads. Yes, we have them. They are only Adsense text ads, I do not and
will never permit image ads or 3rd party sponsor ads. I think this is a
responsible and simple method of keeping the forum running if it gets hit
with more traffic. Good hosting is not cheap. I realize that some users
hate ads with a passion. Most of those users are already running an ad
blocker, so they will never see the ads anyway. And additionally, any
registered user can disable the ads with two checkboxes in his user
preferences.



You probably use a dedicated host from
http://www.softlayer.com/dedicated/(at least $119 per month)
because
$ host www.libreofficeforum.org
libreofficeforum.org has address 174.121.218.38

and
$ host 174.121.218.38
38.218.121.174.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer
26.da.79ae.static.theplanet.com.

and finally www.theplanet.com leads to www.softlayer.com.

The same IP address that has libreofficeforum.org (174.121.218.38) hosts
about 430 websites.
See
http://whois.domaintools.com/174.121.218.38

Examples of websites are
http://www.1dayacuvuemoistreviews.com/
http://www.1luv2ya.com/

I think the issue is that for a free and open-source project, it's easy to
get fast Internet access and a good server, donated by some University or a
company. A group of volunteers can maintain it in the beginning. Therefore,
there is no need to go into issues such as paying from your own money for a
server and supplementing it with ads.

Simos



Have you tried?



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Andy Brown]

Italo Vignoli wrote:

On 4/26/11 8:57 PM, Andy Brown wrote:


I feel that this is wrong, not on your part as you are only following
directions. If this is the stand that the TDF wishes to take then there
is going to be a lot of support lost.


I am a member of the steering committee, but here I am speaking for
myself. I personally prefer mailing lists, but I know that there are
people who prefer forums and people who prefer newsgroups, and I have
learned to respect both opinions.

I don't think that the SC has expressed a formal opinion about forums,
although members of the SC have been involved in several discussions
about this topic, and have expressed their personal opinion.

For the time being, and I anticipate that this situation will continue
for a few months (let's say until the end of 2011), the SC is focused on
other issues. It's a pure question of bandwidth.

Looking at the OOo project, forums have been launched after several
years. We need time to decide on every single problem.



Well someone told David to remove it.  But then with all the new TDF 
members maybe one of them told him to remove it.  Also I did not say 
anything about the SC.  I am still trying to figure out the membership 
thing any way.



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Andy Brown]

Jaime R. Garza wrote:




David,


I feel that this is wrong, not on your part as you are only following
directions.  If this is the stand that the TDF wishes to take then there is
going to be a lot of support lost.



I really find all this discussion ridiculous, it should not be allowed to
make advertising for the main competitor, it's a matter of common
sense!!! Who would make advertising for their main competitor, my
God!!! Please, I don't mean to be rude, but who ever thinks that the wrong
direction, then I don't think he or she lives in the real world. And I
humbly invite you to search for something else.



Just the type of thing that is driving people way from LibreOffice/TDF.



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Italo Vignoli]

On 4/26/11 8:57 PM, Andy Brown wrote:


I feel that this is wrong, not on your part as you are only following
directions. If this is the stand that the TDF wishes to take then there
is going to be a lot of support lost.


I am a member of the steering committee, but here I am speaking for 
myself. I personally prefer mailing lists, but I know that there are 
people who prefer forums and people who prefer newsgroups, and I have 
learned to respect both opinions.


I don't think that the SC has expressed a formal opinion about forums, 
although members of the SC have been involved in several discussions 
about this topic, and have expressed their personal opinion.


For the time being, and I anticipate that this situation will continue 
for a few months (let's say until the end of 2011), the SC is focused on 
other issues. It's a pure question of bandwidth.


Looking at the OOo project, forums have been launched after several 
years. We need time to decide on every single problem.


--
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italo.vign...@gmail.com
mobile +39.348.5653829
VoIP +39.02.320621813
skype italovignoli

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Jaime R. Garza]

>
>
>> David,
>
> I feel that this is wrong, not on your part as you are only following
> directions.  If this is the stand that the TDF wishes to take then there is
> going to be a lot of support lost.
>
>
I really find all this discussion ridiculous, it should not be allowed to
make advertising for the main competitor, it's a matter of common
sense!!! Who would make advertising for their main competitor, my
God!!! Please, I don't mean to be rude, but who ever thinks that the wrong
direction, then I don't think he or she lives in the real world. And I
humbly invite you to search for something else.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Simos Xenitellis]

On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:50 PM,  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I am the creator of LibreOfficeForum.org. I'd just like to set a few
> things straight.
>
> ...

> 2. Ads. Yes, we have them. They are only Adsense text ads, I do not and
> will never permit image ads or 3rd party sponsor ads. I think this is a
> responsible and simple method of keeping the forum running if it gets hit
> with more traffic. Good hosting is not cheap. I realize that some users
> hate ads with a passion. Most of those users are already running an ad
> blocker, so they will never see the ads anyway. And additionally, any
> registered user can disable the ads with two checkboxes in his user
> preferences.
>

You probably use a dedicated host from
http://www.softlayer.com/dedicated/(at least $119 per month)
because
$ host www.libreofficeforum.org
libreofficeforum.org has address 174.121.218.38

and
$ host 174.121.218.38
38.218.121.174.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer
26.da.79ae.static.theplanet.com.

and finally www.theplanet.com leads to www.softlayer.com.

The same IP address that has libreofficeforum.org (174.121.218.38) hosts
about 430 websites.
See
http://whois.domaintools.com/174.121.218.38

Examples of websites are
http://www.1dayacuvuemoistreviews.com/
http://www.1luv2ya.com/

I think the issue is that for a free and open-source project, it's easy to
get fast Internet access and a good server, donated by some University or a
company. A group of volunteers can maintain it in the beginning. Therefore,
there is no need to go into issues such as paying from your own money for a
server and supplementing it with ads.

Simos

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Andy Brown]

David Nelson wrote:

Hi Sam,

I regretfully have to inform you that I had to remove the link to the
LibreOfficeForum.org site at the request of Drew Jensen seconded by
Charles Schulz. Sorry about that. Personally, I have no issues with
your site.

I think Drew is willing to debate the matter. Maybe a solution could
be found? Would removing the advertising be a possibility?

Anyway, just to keep you informed...

David Nelson



David,

I feel that this is wrong, not on your part as you are only following 
directions.  If this is the stand that the TDF wishes to take then there 
is going to be a lot of support lost.


Andy

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Italo Vignoli]

On 4/26/11 6:10 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:


Including ads for companies selling Microsoft Office. I find that
offensive.


I think exactly the opposite. Given the way the ads are placed, the fact 
that there are ads of companies selling MS Office qualifies the visitors 
of the web site as a proper target for office suites.


I think we have already discussed about the fact that we are not against 
Microsoft, although we don't like the way that the company behaves and 
makes business.


We are not fighting a war against Microsoft. We respect them, although 
we understand that the relationship with them is asymmetrical, as they 
want to get us out of the market.


I would also like to express my personal view about advertising, which 
is not negative at all. I have even read somewhere (I don't remember if 
it was in this thread) that advertising is against the principles of 
free software.


I personally don't like forums, because I prefer to concentrate my 
interactions via email, but I do respect the people who like forums, and 
I don't think that Google Text Ads are a problem (even if they advertise 
MS Office, as I think that I can judge by myself and I wouldn't want to 
limit the freedom of other people banning advertising because there 
might be MS Office ads).


--
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italo.vign...@gmail.com
mobile +39.348.5653829
VoIP +39.02.320621813
skype italovignoli

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[David Nelson]

Hi Sam,

I regretfully have to inform you that I had to remove the link to the
LibreOfficeForum.org site at the request of Drew Jensen seconded by
Charles Schulz. Sorry about that. Personally, I have no issues with
your site.

I think Drew is willing to debate the matter. Maybe a solution could
be found? Would removing the advertising be a possibility?

Anyway, just to keep you informed...

David Nelson

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2011/04/25 8:50 AM  sb73...@libreofficeforum.org wrote:

2. Ads. Yes, we have them.

Including ads for companies selling Microsoft Office. I find that offensive.

Larry
--
_
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - 
Edgard Varese



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[David Nelson]

Hi, :-)

On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 13:38,   wrote:
> I am the creator of LibreOfficeForum.org.

I am going to post link to varous LibreOffice / OpenOffice.org support
forums on the LibreOffice website's Getting Help page, and
LibreOfficeForum.org will be listed.

Thank you for hosting a support channel on behalf of the community. :-)

David Nelson

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[sb73542]

Hi everyone,

I am the creator of LibreOfficeForum.org. I'd just like to set a few
things straight.

1. The forum DOES have full categories, similar to the two major
OpenOffice.org forums. Please look at /forum or click on the Forums button
toward the upper left. I prefer the "Recent posts" listing, because it is
an easy way to see activity across all the categories, and it also helps
spot and control SPAM posts in the comments of old threads, which is a
real problem on some other forums. That being said, if most people find
this too confusing, I can change the frontpage to show the full forum
categories list. I would like to kindly and respectfully request everyone
to give us your opinion on this change after looking at the site with an
open mind and more than a passing glance. Yes, this is an unofficial site,
and yes, it runs Adsense, but a lot of time, effort, and thought has gone
into it to make it nice for the user.

2. Ads. Yes, we have them. They are only Adsense text ads, I do not and
will never permit image ads or 3rd party sponsor ads. I think this is a
responsible and simple method of keeping the forum running if it gets hit
with more traffic. Good hosting is not cheap. I realize that some users
hate ads with a passion. Most of those users are already running an ad
blocker, so they will never see the ads anyway. And additionally, any
registered user can disable the ads with two checkboxes in his user
preferences.

3. Internationalization. I need to get the registration welcome email
internationalized. I don't know how to do this yet, but it's on my list.
At any rate, I feel that we are showing respect to people of other
languages by offering the same exact forum (with all its categories
translated) in none less than 10 languages. At least one moderator that
speaks the language is assigned to each one.

Again, thanks to everyone involved for making LibreOffice available, it's
an extremely important piece of software in my life. Sorry if I don't
receive all of your replies or respond promptly. I'm not very good with
mailing lists and I don't use them much.

Thanks,
Sam


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[toki]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 25/04/2011 08:44, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

> It is OK if it has a paypal or whatever donate link to explicitly
cover the costs of running the server (but it must be clear that this

You do realize that the organization that puts up the "donation link"
has to register in each of the fifty states of the united states, and
each of the thirteen provinces and territories of Canada, and each
country in Europe, and each overseas province of France, etc, or face
possible civil or criminal prosecution, or both, in the respective
political entity in which they failed to register, don't you?

jonathon
- -- 
If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting.

If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth
requesting.

  DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw.
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[toki]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 25/04/2011 03:29, Larry Gusaas wrote:

> Someone makes money any time an ad is clicked on. That is contrary to the 
> spirit of using open source software.

Open Source Software is about LIBRE.
Gratis is completely and utterly irrelevant to FLOSS.

Frankly, I'd be extremely surprised if the adds generated enough revenue
to pay the true costs of running the website.

jonathon
- -- 
If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting.

If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth
requesting.

  DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw.
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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2011/04/25 2:58 PM  Charles Marcus wrote:

On 2011-04-25 4:36 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:

On 2011/04/25 2:13 PM  Charles Marcus wrote:

Being contrary to the spirit of making money is being contrary to the
spirit of life itself

Bullshit. Making money has nothing to do with the spirit of life.

No bullshit... it has everything to do with it, since supporting life
requires food, clothing and shelter, and those require -  money.

Yes it is. You are talking about the necessities to support life. That is not 
the  spirit of life.


- unless of course you're one of 'those' people who believe that
they are *entitled* to the fruit of other people's labor.

What makes you think I believe I'm entitled to the fruit of other
people's labour?

I said "*UNLESS* you are... I didn't say you were...

That is right. You veiled your insult behind an "unless you are". The intent 
was clear.

You still have not defined who "'those' people" are. That term is usually used to marginalize, 
denigrate, and dismiss "others" such as blacks, gays, Jews, Native Americans, Indians, Chinese, 
etc. in your to ignore and trivialize them. Typical tactic of the privileged.


Larry
--
_
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - 
Edgard Varese



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Charles Marcus]

On 2011-04-25 4:36 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> On 2011/04/25 2:13 PM  Charles Marcus wrote:
>> Being contrary to the spirit of making money is being contrary to the
>> spirit of life itself

> Bullshit. Making money has nothing to do with the spirit of life.

No bullshit... it has everything to do with it, since supporting life
requires food, clothing and shelter, and those require -  money.

>> - unless of course you're one of 'those' people who believe that
>> they are *entitled* to the fruit of other people's labor.

> What makes you think I believe I'm entitled to the fruit of other
> people's labour?

I said "*UNLESS* you are... I didn't say you were...

-- 

Best regards,

Charles

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2011/04/25 2:13 PM  Charles Marcus wrote:

On 2011-04-24 11:29 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:

Someone makes money any time an ad is clicked on. That is contrary to
the spirit of using open source software.

Not that I'm arguing for or against the particular forum in question,
but... since when is making 'money contrary to the spirit of using open
source software'?


Perhaps I should reword that. Having ads for commercial products, including Microsoft Office, 
have no place on a site supporting an open source product. I will not provide support on a site 
that uses that method to raise money.



Being contrary to the spirit of making money is being contrary to the
spirit of life itself

Bullshit. Making money has nothing to do with the spirit of life.


- unless of course you're one of 'those' people
who believe that they are *entitled* to the fruit of other people's labor.
Who are the 'those' people you are referring to? What label are you trying to pin on me in 
order to insult me?


What makes you think I believe I'm entitled to the fruit of other people's 
labour?

Larry
--
_
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - 
Edgard Varese



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Charles Marcus]

On 2011-04-24 11:29 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> Someone makes money any time an ad is clicked on. That is contrary to
> the spirit of using open source software.

Not that I'm arguing for or against the particular forum in question,
but... since when is making 'money contrary to the spirit of using open
source software'?

Being contrary to the spirit of making money is being contrary to the
spirit of life itself - unless of course you're one of 'those' people
who believe that they are *entitled* to the fruit of other people's labor.

-- 

Best regards,

Charles

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[sb73542]

Hi everyone,

I am the creator of LibreOfficeForum.org. I'd just like to set a few
things straight.

1. The forum DOES have full categories, similar to the two major
OpenOffice.org forums. Please look at /forum or click on the Forums button
toward the upper left. I prefer the "Recent posts" listing, because it is
an easy way to see activity across all the categories, and it also helps
spot and control SPAM posts in the comments of old threads, which is a
real problem on some other forums. That being said, if most people find
this too confusing, I can change the frontpage to show the full forum
categories list. I would like to kindly and respectfully request everyone
to give us your opinion on this change after looking at the site with an
open mind and more than a passing glance. Yes, this is an unofficial site,
and yes, it runs Adsense, but a lot of time, effort, and thought has gone
into it to make it nice for the user.

2. Ads. Yes, we have them. They are only Adsense text ads, I do not and
will never permit image ads or 3rd party sponsor ads. I think this is a
responsible and simple method of keeping the forum running if it gets hit
with more traffic. Good hosting is not cheap. I realize that some users
hate ads with a passion. Most of those users are already running an ad
blocker, so they will never see the ads anyway. And additionally, any
registered user can disable the ads with two checkboxes in his user
preferences.

3. Internationalization. I need to get the registration welcome email
internationalized. I don't know how to do this yet, but it's on my list.
At any rate, I feel that we are showing respect to people of other
languages by offering the same exact forum (with all its categories
translated) in none less than 10 languages. At least one moderator that
speaks the language is assigned to each one.

Again, thanks to everyone involved for making LibreOffice available, it's
an extremely important piece of software in my life. Sorry if I don't
receive all of your replies or respond promptly. I'm not very good with
mailing lists and I don't use them much.

Thanks,
Sam


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Jon Hamkins]

On 04/25/2011 05:07 AM, drew wrote:

On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 12:27 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote:



It is the impression that the user will
get. Clicking a donate button is a voluntary choice by the user
clicking that button. Being presented/forced to view an advertisement
is not an optional thing.


Was not the user forced to view the donate advertisement, that is what
it is after all, an advertisement.

The user of a display ad is not forced to click on it.


The biggest problem I have with ads on a forum is the impression it 
makes on a new user.  If I go to a forum for the first time and I see no 
ads, a lot of users logged in, and a lot of recent activity, I know I 
have something good.  This is the goal we should have for a new 
LibreOffice forum.  A site with ads detracts from the 
community-supported, community-driven impression that I would like to 
see LibO make.  A donate button does not detract from this impression, IMHO.


From a no-ads standpoint, http://www.oooforum.org and 
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ set good examples -- they 
only have the logo of the forum sponsor, which is fine.  The problem 
with those is that they use the name ooo, and one is sponsored by 
Oracle, so I think using them is not in the long-term interest of LibO.


Since we are starting from scratch with a forum, I think we should set 
it up properly, without ads.  If that means waiting a couple of months 
to find a sponsor willing to do it, it's worth the wait, in my view.  I 
like the domain libreofficeforum.org, so hopefully the owner will be 
willing to give it up.


 Jon

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[drew]

On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 12:27 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> Hi Drew, *,
> 
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 11:05 AM, drew  wrote:
> > On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 10:44 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> >> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Augustine Souza  
> >> wrote:
> > [...]
> > In general I would like to see the ads limited and focused, but out
> > right banned in favor of a donate button - I don't see the difference,
> > do you really think that a donate button means that the money doesn't go
> > to the owner or that they will stop taking donations as soon as the cost
> > is covered.

Howdy,


> I do see a difference, 

Fair enough.

> It is not about that they get money, it is
> /how/ the money is collected. 

Also fair enough.

> It is the impression that the user will
> get. Clicking a donate button is a voluntary choice by the user
> clicking that button. Being presented/forced to view an advertisement
> is not an optional thing.

Was not the user forced to view the donate advertisement, that is what
it is after all, an advertisement.

The user of a display ad is not forced to click on it.

A user could user an ad blocker to keep themselves from being 'insulted'
by the advertisement (I assume as I do not use one), but if I understand
correctly this would not turn off the donate advertisement. (I'm not
really sure on that.)

> 
> > What would you do with the forum at http://lo-portal.de
> > In or Out?
> 
> I wonder why this can not be clear - (did you forget to turn off your
> adblocker?)

Again, I don't use one, so I see all those ads.

> 
> It is a definite "Out". it has animated, blinking banner-style adds.
> That's just annoying and way too much. The adds are at the top, at the
> left, at the right, at the bottom. That's way too much.

> >> So bottom line is: If you want to have your forum listed on the LO
> >> webpage, you must not have ads, neither textual nor graphcial
> >> ("sponsored by" is OK). That is my POV.
> >
> > Bottom line - I think that is too stringent, but it is a close call IMO.
> 
> Not really. Either you want to support the project, by donating your
> server or your time, or you want to get revenue by having ads.

> After all setting up a forum is not rocket science, 

@Hagar, guys - I'm done.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Drew, *,

On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 11:05 AM, drew  wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 10:44 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Augustine Souza  
>> wrote:
> [...]
> In general I would like to see the ads limited and focused, but out
> right banned in favor of a donate button - I don't see the difference,
> do you really think that a donate button means that the money doesn't go
> to the owner or that they will stop taking donations as soon as the cost
> is covered.

I do see a difference, It is not about that they get money, it is
/how/ the money is collected. It is the impression that the user will
get. Clicking a donate button is a voluntary choice by the user
clicking that button. Being presented/forced to view an advertisement
is not an optional thing.

> What would you do with the forum at http://lo-portal.de
> In or Out?

I wonder why this can not be clear - (did you forget to turn off your
adblocker?)

It is a definite "Out". it has animated, blinking banner-style adds.
That's just annoying and way too much. The adds are at the top, at the
left, at the right, at the bottom. That's way too much.

>> So bottom line is: If you want to have your forum listed on the LO
>> webpage, you must not have ads, neither textual nor graphcial
>> ("sponsored by" is OK). That is my POV.
>
> Bottom line - I think that is too stringent, but it is a close call IMO.

Not really. Either you want to support the project, by donating your
server or your time, or you want to get revenue by having ads.

After all setting up a forum is not rocket science, and it is not like
there would be a lack of them and we have to beg people to set up yet
another one. (IMHO there are already too many of them)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[drew]

On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 10:44 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> Hi Augistine, *,
> 
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Augustine Souza  
> wrote:
> > I have no issues with a forum that is commercial presumably to [b]cover
> > costs[/b]. As Andy says, the ads are easily blocked (in that I had no need
> > to take specific steps to block ads from that site).
> 
> But the point was about listing forums as "officially approved" or
> somthing along those lines, and then I don't want the forum to list
> ads.

Hi Christian.

> It is OK if it has a paypal or whatever donate link to explicitly
> cover the costs of running the server (but it must be clear that this
> is different than to donate to TDF/LO itself), but no google-adwords
> or even worse graphical ads.

In general I would like to see the ads limited and focused, but out
right banned in favor of a donate button - I don't see the difference,
do you really think that a donate button means that the money doesn't go
to the owner or that they will stop taking donations as soon as the cost
is covered.


> Also perfectly fine to list the sponsor (the one who hosts the
> forum/runs it/pays for it) the header or footer.
> 
> compare http://libreoffice-forum.de/ with http://libreofficeforum.org/
> 
> I don't have a problem with listing the first, but I don't want to
> link the second one as approved forum because of the ads.
> (Not to mention the lack of subcategories that has been mentioned before)

I do not like the ads and the number of them on libreofficeforum but I
would not feel so strongly is they where focused, as is it is a bit too
commercial for my taste. (actually I was totally against ads, at all, in
the beginning but I've started to change my mind on that)

What would you do with the forum at http://lo-portal.de 
In or Out?

> 
> And it doesn't matter whether you or others don't see it because you
> got adblock installed. 

Actually it is not adbolck, it is that if you register then no ads,
IIRC.

> The other visitors that follow links from the
> lo website don't have that enabled, thus they do see the ads.

Yup that is the rub.

> So bottom line is: If you want to have your forum listed on the LO
> webpage, you must not have ads, neither textual nor graphcial
> ("sponsored by" is OK). That is my POV.

Bottom line - I think that is too stringent, but it is a close call IMO.

Thanks

Drew


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Augistine, *,

On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Augustine Souza  wrote:
> I have no issues with a forum that is commercial presumably to [b]cover
> costs[/b]. As Andy says, the ads are easily blocked (in that I had no need
> to take specific steps to block ads from that site).

But the point was about listing forums as "officially approved" or
somthing along those lines, and then I don't want the forum to list
ads.

It is OK if it has a paypal or whatever donate link to explicitly
cover the costs of running the server (but it must be clear that this
is different than to donate to TDF/LO itself), but no google-adwords
or even worse graphical ads.
Also perfectly fine to list the sponsor (the one who hosts the
forum/runs it/pays for it) the header or footer.

compare http://libreoffice-forum.de/ with http://libreofficeforum.org/

I don't have a problem with listing the first, but I don't want to
link the second one as approved forum because of the ads.
(Not to mention the lack of subcategories that has been mentioned before)

And it doesn't matter whether you or others don't see it because you
got adblock installed. The other visitors that follow links from the
lo website don't have that enabled, thus they do see the ads.

So bottom line is: If you want to have your forum listed on the LO
webpage, you must not have ads, neither textual nor graphcial
("sponsored by" is OK). That is my POV.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Robert Holtzman]

On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 12:51:53PM -0600, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> >
> You won't see them if you have AdBlock or other  ad blocking
> extensions for your browser. That doesn't change the fact that there
> is a commercial aspect to the forum.

With Adlock and noscript disabled I see no ads.
> 
> Larry
> -- 
> _
> Larry I. Gusaas
> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." 
> - Edgard Varese
> 
> 
> 
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-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Robert Holtzman]

On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 12:21:03PM -0600, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> On 2011/04/24 12:14 PM  adept techlists - kazar wrote:
> >Ah, OK, i just searched for "libreoffice forum" and found
> >http://en.libreofficeforum.org/. Uncategorized, and I believe
> >forums with categories are better learning tools. Plus, even
> >though I started from the "en." subdomain and selected English as
> >my language on the home page, when I registered a new account the
> >email instructions were:
> 
> That forum includes commercial ads. I will not support a forum driven by 
> commercial interests.

Where? I saw none.

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Augustine Souza]

I have no issues with a forum that is commercial presumably to [b]cover
costs[/b]. As Andy says, the ads are easily blocked (in that I had no need
to take specific steps to block ads from that site).

One more advantage of forums is that sig files are restricted in length and
readers aren't subjected to lengthy sig files that are sometimes
"advertisement". There's proof of how sig files can be abused in this
mailing list.

For whatever reason, if a forum by the TDF is not desirable by the
power-that-be, we just have to live with the fact.

On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Andy Brown wrote:

>
> A user can disable the ads for his account.
>
> Andy
>
>

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2011/04/24 8:34 PM  Andy Brown wrote:

Larry Gusaas wrote:


On 2011/04/24 12:43 PM Andy Brown wrote:



This comes as a surprise to me. I do not see any ads before or after I
login.

Andy


You won't see them if you have AdBlock or other ad blocking extensions
for your browser. That doesn't change the fact that there is a
commercial aspect to the forum.

Larry


A user can disable the ads for his account.

Andy

That is not relevant. That does not change the fact that there are commercial ads on the site. 
I will not recommend that site to anyone. Someone makes money any time an ad is clicked on. 
That is contrary to the spirit of using open source software.


This issue came up on this list before when that forum was first started.

Larry
--
_
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - 
Edgard Varese



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Andy Brown]

Larry Gusaas wrote:


On 2011/04/24 12:43 PM Andy Brown wrote:



This comes as a surprise to me. I do not see any ads before or after I
login.

Andy


You won't see them if you have AdBlock or other ad blocking extensions
for your browser. That doesn't change the fact that there is a
commercial aspect to the forum.

Larry


A user can disable the ads for his account.

Andy

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Andy Brown]

Larry Gusaas wrote:


On 2011/04/24 1:05 PM Andy Brown wrote:

adept techlists - kazar wrote:

On 4/24/11 2:42 PM, Andy Brown wrote:


What do you mean by "Uncategorized"? If you feel there is something
that will make the forum better I am sure that it can be looked at by
the management.


good to hear. If you look at
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ you will see topic
categories. That is what I mean.



Did you not see the same list for Writer, Calc, &etc on the
LibreOffice forum? See http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5215855/forum.png for a
short list from there.

Andy


When I go to http://libreofficeforum.org/ all I see is a list of Recent
Posts. There is no link to go to separate applications.

Larry


Try  http://libreofficeforum.org/forum .  That is what I use and it 
gives the list as seen in the screen shot.  Leaving the /forum off takes 
you directly to the Recent Post layout.  I am going to talk to the owner 
about this.


Andy


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2011/04/24 1:05 PM  Andy Brown wrote:

adept techlists - kazar wrote:

On 4/24/11 2:42 PM, Andy Brown wrote:


What do you mean by "Uncategorized"? If you feel there is something
that will make the forum better I am sure that it can be looked at by
the management.


good to hear. If you look at
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ you will see topic
categories. That is what I mean.



Did you not see the same list for Writer, Calc, &etc on the LibreOffice forum?  See 
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5215855/forum.png  for a short list from there.


Andy

When I go to http://libreofficeforum.org/ all I see is a list of Recent Posts. There is no link 
to go to separate applications.


Larry
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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2011/04/24 12:43 PM  Andy Brown wrote:

Larry Gusaas wrote:

On 2011/04/24 12:14 PM adept techlists - kazar wrote:

Ah, OK, i just searched for "libreoffice forum" and found
http://en.libreofficeforum.org/. Uncategorized, and I believe forums
with categories are better learning tools. Plus, even though I started
from the "en." subdomain and selected English as my language on the
home page, when I registered a new account the email instructions were:


That forum includes commercial ads. I will not support a forum driven by
commercial interests.

Larry


This comes as a surprise to me.  I do not see any ads before or after I login.

Andy

You won't see them if you have AdBlock or other  ad blocking extensions for your browser. That 
doesn't change the fact that there is a commercial aspect to the forum.


Larry
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Andy Brown]

Larry Gusaas wrote:

On 2011/04/24 12:14 PM adept techlists - kazar wrote:

Ah, OK, i just searched for "libreoffice forum" and found
http://en.libreofficeforum.org/. Uncategorized, and I believe forums
with categories are better learning tools. Plus, even though I started
from the "en." subdomain and selected English as my language on the
home page, when I registered a new account the email instructions were:


That forum includes commercial ads. I will not support a forum driven by
commercial interests.

Larry


This comes as a surprise to me.  I do not see any ads before or after I 
login.


Andy

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2011/04/24 12:14 PM  Michelle Konzack wrote:

Am 2011-04-24 11:21:03, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:

Another thing: once I'm on a web forum, if I have time I start
poking through the categories to pick out topics of interest and i
learn so much about the forum. And another thing: effectively
moderated forums will have a FAQ section so that rather than the
regular participants having to answer the same questions over and
over they can simply point to the FAQ.

Web-Forums areheavy target of spamers...  Iknow many of them which where
hijacked by PE and asian electronic sellers and such...
Some are. Well run forums, such as http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ quickly get 
rid of any spam and ban the posters.


It is much easier to find solutions to specific issues on a forum with multiple categories than 
by searching through a mailing list archive. Most of the support I give is not on mailing 
lists. It is on:

http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/

Perhaps you should check it out instead of giving your unsubstantiated 
condemnation of forums.

Larry
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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello adept techlists - kazar,

Am 2011-04-24 11:21:03, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> I just want to write in as a consultant and end-user, to point out
> several of the major benefits of forums over mailing lists that I
> have not noticed yet in this discussion: mainly --visibility,
> persistence and searchability

Mailinglists Archives are widely mirrort and searchable too

> I am actually a fan of the mailman software used to run this list
> and have hosted several email lists using mailman (and, before that,
> majordomo). However, i find that whereas email lists are better for
> discussions like this one, web forums make more sense for official
> and/or community support. For software I use that has web -based
> support forums, I almost always can find that the question I have
> has already been asked and answered by someone else, or that the
> problem I wish to report has already been supported.
> 
> If you've ever tried searching in mailman archives to see if your
> question has already been posted & answered, it is an exercise in
> total frustration.

FUD

> Another thing: once I'm on a web forum, if I have time I start
> poking through the categories to pick out topics of interest and i
> learn so much about the forum. And another thing: effectively
> moderated forums will have a FAQ section so that rather than the
> regular participants having to answer the same questions over and
> over they can simply point to the FAQ.

Web-Forums areheavy target of spamers...  Iknow many of them which where
hijacked by PE and asian electronic sellers and such...

> For those who complain of the bandwidth and time entailed in loading
> web pages:
> 
> There is this little thing called RSS, it's been around for a couple
> of years ;-)  ...

It tells nothing... (experience)

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2011/04/24 12:14 PM  adept techlists - kazar wrote:
Ah, OK, i just searched for "libreoffice forum" and found http://en.libreofficeforum.org/. 
Uncategorized, and I believe forums with categories are better learning tools. Plus, even 
though I started from the "en." subdomain and selected English as my language on the home 
page, when I registered a new account the email instructions were: 


That forum includes commercial ads. I will not support a forum driven by 
commercial interests.

Larry
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Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Jason Corfman]

>so - If you think that neither of the OO.o forums are good alternatives
>what would you suggest?

If http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum is going to be sticking
around, I'd happily suggest it, but I just don't know what Oracle will do
with it.

Jason Corfman
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On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 1:34 AM, drew  wrote:

> On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 20:15 -0400, Jason Corfman wrote:
> > >From my perspective, there are two major OpenOffice.org forums, and if
> you
> > ask me, right now, neither are very good alternatives.
> >
> > The first is http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum. While it is a
> > community forum, it was set up back in 2007 on (then) Sun servers, which
> are
> > currently controlled by Oracle. Considering last week's announcement from
> > Oracle about turning OpenOffice.org over to the community, you have to
> > wonder how long Oracle will allow that forum to be hosted on their
> servers,
> > and if it gets booted off, where will it go?
>
> Hi Jason,
>
> I think that is precisely what prompted Ricardo to venture over here and
> ask the question he did - he and some of others where looking to reach
> out and see if this group might be willing to step in if that happened -
> It didn't go so well.
>
> so - If you think that neither of the OO.o forums are good alternatives
> what would you suggest?
>
> Also - There is already ancillary forums going up that are LibreOffice
> specific, or at least carry the LibO name, two are German language only
> (one straight phpBB and one a Joomla mod) and one multi language (a
> Drupal mod), including English and German for that matter, so three
> German language web forums already .
>
> Thanks
>
> Drew Jensen
>
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[drew]

On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 20:15 -0400, Jason Corfman wrote:
> >From my perspective, there are two major OpenOffice.org forums, and if you
> ask me, right now, neither are very good alternatives.
> 
> The first is http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum. While it is a
> community forum, it was set up back in 2007 on (then) Sun servers, which are
> currently controlled by Oracle. Considering last week's announcement from
> Oracle about turning OpenOffice.org over to the community, you have to
> wonder how long Oracle will allow that forum to be hosted on their servers,
> and if it gets booted off, where will it go?

Hi Jason,

I think that is precisely what prompted Ricardo to venture over here and
ask the question he did - he and some of others where looking to reach
out and see if this group might be willing to step in if that happened -
It didn't go so well. 

so - If you think that neither of the OO.o forums are good alternatives
what would you suggest? 

Also - There is already ancillary forums going up that are LibreOffice
specific, or at least carry the LibO name, two are German language only
(one straight phpBB and one a Joomla mod) and one multi language (a
Drupal mod), including English and German for that matter, so three
German language web forums already . 

Thanks 

Drew Jensen


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Jason Corfman]

>From my perspective, there are two major OpenOffice.org forums, and if you
ask me, right now, neither are very good alternatives.

The first is http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum. While it is a
community forum, it was set up back in 2007 on (then) Sun servers, which are
currently controlled by Oracle. Considering last week's announcement from
Oracle about turning OpenOffice.org over to the community, you have to
wonder how long Oracle will allow that forum to be hosted on their servers,
and if it gets booted off, where will it go?

The second is http://www.oooforum.org. The person who set it up wanted to
help support OpenOffice.org, but unfortunately, he has been largely absent
for years. It was dissatisfaction with the running of this forum that led
many moderators and users to fork and set up the previously mentioned forum.
The OOoForum is getting slammed with spam, and the software running the site
hasn't been updated in years (not since well before the 2007 split), not to
mention the fact that the userbase is not what it once was.

But I do believe that forums are generally easier for users than mailing
lists, but right now, I can't really recommend either of these alternatives.

Jason Corfman
comput...@corfyscorner.com - www.corfyscorner.com
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On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 3:11 PM, RGB ES  wrote:

> Well, even if I'd said that the ancient forums vs mailing lists war
> was not the point but *what people use*, the forums vs. mailing lists
> useless fight came again...
> At first I was tempted to refer how the English forums have near 200
> new message each day and talk about the madness it would be to receive
> near 200 mails each day. I was tempted to talk about how I'm giving
> on-line support to users since a long time (I started using computers
> more than 25 years ago) and justify the fact that I know quite well
> the advantages and disadvantages of every possible communication
> system in use for the last 20 years... Many things...
> But I'm giving up.
> Have a nice day!
> And don't worry to answer me, I'm unsubscribing from the mailing list.
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[drew]

On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 21:05 -0600, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> On 2011/04/17 8:29 PM  Michelle Konzack wrote:
> > Hello aqualung,
> >
> > Am 2011-04-17 11:26:23, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> >> The http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ should be at or near the
> >> top.
> > WHY?  I think the first one should be the ORIGINAL mailinglist,  because
> > it is more ipmortant.  Also WHY "OpenOffice" and not "LibreOffice"?
> >
> > Of you want an OpenOffice Forum, you should ask Oracle for it!  :-D
> Did you read this discussion? Did you look at 
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ ?
> If you had looked at the forum you would have seen that it is a "User 
> community support forum 
> for OpenOffice.org, StarOffice, NeoOffice and LibreOffice".
> 
> Some people on this list stated that support forums already existed and there 
> is no need for a 
> new one. Aqualung was suggesting that there to be links to them on the 
> support pages.
> 
> As for your inane statement "Of you want an OpenOffice Forum, you should ask 
> Oracle for it!", 
> you should do some research before making such an idiotic comment.
> 
> Your attitude is an insult to all of us at that forum who provide support for 
> OpenOffice.org 
> and all its derivatives, including LibreOffice.

Hi Larry,

Just got done reading the thread also.

I can only assume that Sophie's comment telling Ricardo that he needs to
understand collaboration comes from a place of complete ignorance on her
part as to his contributions. 

As for the rest of it - like the guys on the forum said after this
exchange - it's like talking people in a time warp.

Adios Amigos,

Drew


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Larry Gusaas]

On 2011/04/17 8:29 PM  Michelle Konzack wrote:

Hello aqualung,

Am 2011-04-17 11:26:23, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:

The http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ should be at or near the
top.

WHY?  I think the first one should be the ORIGINAL mailinglist,  because
it is more ipmortant.  Also WHY "OpenOffice" and not "LibreOffice"?

Of you want an OpenOffice Forum, you should ask Oracle for it!  :-D

Did you read this discussion? Did you look at 
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ ?
If you had looked at the forum you would have seen that it is a "User community support forum 
for OpenOffice.org, StarOffice, NeoOffice and LibreOffice".


Some people on this list stated that support forums already existed and there is no need for a 
new one. Aqualung was suggesting that there to be links to them on the support pages.


As for your inane statement "Of you want an OpenOffice Forum, you should ask Oracle for it!", 
you should do some research before making such an idiotic comment.


Your attitude is an insult to all of us at that forum who provide support for OpenOffice.org 
and all its derivatives, including LibreOffice.


Larry
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Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Marc Paré]

Le 2011-04-18 15:11, RGB ES a écrit :

Well, even if I'd said that the ancient forums vs mailing lists war
was not the point but *what people use*, the forums vs. mailing lists
useless fight came again...
At first I was tempted to refer how the English forums have near 200
new message each day and talk about the madness it would be to receive
near 200 mails each day. I was tempted to talk about how I'm giving
on-line support to users since a long time (I started using computers
more than 25 years ago) and justify the fact that I know quite well
the advantages and disadvantages of every possible communication
system in use for the last 20 years... Many things...
But I'm giving up.
Have a nice day!
And don't worry to answer me, I'm unsubscribing from the mailing list.



It would be sad to see you leave the discussion mailing list. Please do 
stay on, and to keep on contributing.


Even if the topic of LibreOffice forums seems to always get very 
frustrating responses, the constant message that is given on this issue 
is to be patient. It has only been 6 months since the start of 
LibreOffice. The forums situation will eventually sort itself out. I can 
see quite a shake-up on the horizon with Oracle dropping support for the 
commercial OpenOffice.org suite and suggesting an OpenOffice.org 
community (who knows what will happen with the Trademark name -- 
hopefully it will be given to the LibreOffice project, as it should have 
right from the beginning).


In the meantime, your contributions on the mailing lists are well 
appreciated and I hope you will reconsider.


Cheers

Marc


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[RGB ES]

Well, even if I'd said that the ancient forums vs mailing lists war
was not the point but *what people use*, the forums vs. mailing lists
useless fight came again...
At first I was tempted to refer how the English forums have near 200
new message each day and talk about the madness it would be to receive
near 200 mails each day. I was tempted to talk about how I'm giving
on-line support to users since a long time (I started using computers
more than 25 years ago) and justify the fact that I know quite well
the advantages and disadvantages of every possible communication
system in use for the last 20 years... Many things...
But I'm giving up.
Have a nice day!
And don't worry to answer me, I'm unsubscribing from the mailing list.

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello aqualung,

Am 2011-04-17 11:26:23, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> The http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ should be at or near the
> top.

WHY?  I think the first one should be the ORIGINAL mailinglist,  because
it is more ipmortant.  Also WHY "OpenOffice" and not "LibreOffice"?

Of you want an OpenOffice Forum, you should ask Oracle for it!  :-D

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello aqualung,

Am 2011-04-17 09:07:45, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> I keep hearing "freedom", but is it about the freedom of users from being
> locked into a proprietary file format... or the freedom of unattached
> software developers to get their patches committed? Do people here really
> believe that a "community" of unpaid enthusiasts can take the place of a
> major corporation, or several, putting dozens of experienced professional
> developers to work Monday thru Friday, month after month? If so, it's a pipe
> dream!

What about paying for support?

> Coming back to the call for a forum, why not let the users decide how they
> would prefer to ask for assistance? 

???  User can ALREADY choose the Mailinglist or the Forum!

Maybe yo should go and hire some PROs which do there Job in the Forum?

Note:   I hate Web-Forums and I hate "social" networks,
because they ARE associal!

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi aqualung, *,

aqualung schrieb:

[..]

> Anyway, I'm glad that people are responding. I guess it proves the
> adage, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease"

> Tell you what, give me the keys to that page and I'll fix it for ya.

Do You have an account on the CMS?

If not, someone might have the link at hand for registering.

> Alternatively, I'll see if I can grab the HTML for editing and then
> I'll whip up a proposal for you guys to vote on. Deal?

I'd assume there is no problem to get an author's account.


Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[RGB ES]

2011/4/17 sophie :
> On 17/04/2011 22:33, RGB ES wrote:
>>
>> Aqualung already listed the content of the get-help page and the lack
>> of any reference to existing forums and that is my main point too
>> (don't worry, I'll not talk about socialism nor capitalism... ;) ).
>> I'll not quote anyone in particular here, so let's see if I can make
>> the whole idea more clear by itself.
>
> Did you referenced it in the es website?

I thought there was a recent problem because the ES site was different
from the main site, so no, I did not referenced it there and never
will do if there is no previous agreement.
I'll not answer the rest of your mail.
Have a nice day

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[sophie]

On 17/04/2011 22:33, RGB ES wrote:

Aqualung already listed the content of the get-help page and the lack
of any reference to existing forums and that is my main point too
(don't worry, I'll not talk about socialism nor capitalism... ;) ).
I'll not quote anyone in particular here, so let's see if I can make
the whole idea more clear by itself.


Did you referenced it in the es website?

For whatever reason "normal people" do not use mailing lists nor irc
channels.


 I've not the money to use a forum, strange isn't it, I may not be 
"normal"?

  This people who arrives to that get-help page searching for
help with their problems will not find solutions on an easy way. And
people who cannot find a solution on an easy way will not use a
product.

oh, and why didn't they go to the forum, too complicated?

Is everything about trust: people will trust a product not because
they can use it for free (people usually do not consider idealogical
issues like file formats nor open code when choosing their solutions),
usually they only look if that software can solve their *immediate*
problem on an easy way. And that of course include how they get help
when they have a problem.
ah, in the country I leave, using a product without pirating it make you 
in the safe way of expressing yourself, just a point of view however.
And by the way, even in France, where the liberty of expression is 
respected (in some way) free software in ministry is also a political 
choice, so sorry if I don't caution your reasoning, it's a bit leak for 
me for justifying a dedicated forum, in fact, I don't see where you're 
going.

If on that get-help page you say "even if there is no warranty you'll
get an answer there, we trust the people who maintain that board so
use it with confidence and good luck" you will help a lot more people.


Ha, with confidence and good luck?

That, together with dialogue, is a possible "official collaboration".
Communication with people is the main issue here. Maybe my first
message had a very low level of patience, my fault, sorry. But that
was because I consider that having a clear position on this topic is
of a great importance.
the clear position is as usual and what Christian answered you, why do 
you want to divide resources where they have proven to be effective? you 
are missing collaboration? so work to be collaborative with the forum, 
don't reproach the entire project of something you didn't achieve.

Kind regards
Sophie


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[aqualung]

Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> What did You *act* to get it there?
> 
> 
> 
Friedrich, see my earlier postings (with references / links to earlier
commentary).

Anyway, I'm glad that people are responding. I guess it proves the adage,
"the squeaky wheel gets the grease" 

Tell you what, give me the keys to that page and I'll fix it for ya.
Alternatively, I'll see if I can grab the HTML for editing and then I'll
whip up a proposal for you guys to vote on. Deal?

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[RGB ES]

Aqualung already listed the content of the get-help page and the lack
of any reference to existing forums and that is my main point too
(don't worry, I'll not talk about socialism nor capitalism... ;) ).
I'll not quote anyone in particular here, so let's see if I can make
the whole idea more clear by itself.

For whatever reason "normal people" do not use mailing lists nor irc
channels. This people who arrives to that get-help page searching for
help with their problems will not find solutions on an easy way. And
people who cannot find a solution on an easy way will not use a
product.
Is everything about trust: people will trust a product not because
they can use it for free (people usually do not consider idealogical
issues like file formats nor open code when choosing their solutions),
usually they only look if that software can solve their *immediate*
problem on an easy way. And that of course include how they get help
when they have a problem.
If on that get-help page you say "even if there is no warranty you'll
get an answer there, we trust the people who maintain that board so
use it with confidence and good luck" you will help a lot more people.
That, together with dialogue, is a possible "official collaboration".
Communication with people is the main issue here. Maybe my first
message had a very low level of patience, my fault, sorry. But that
was because I consider that having a clear position on this topic is
of a great importance.
Cheers
Ricardo

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi aqualung, *,

aqualung schrieb:

> Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
>> But there are existing LibreOffice and OpenOffice forums. I still
>> don't get the point.

> Why aren't the users of LibreOffice being told about them?

Whom do You accuse here?

> www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ is the Help page. Let's see what it
> says:

> For user support, we have:
>> * Mailing lists: the user support mailing list address is our
>> main channel for LibreOffice users needing help with a problem
>> [...]index. * IRC channels: come chat with us live on IRC at
>> freenode.net [...] * FAQs: we are compiling a list of
>> frequently-asked questions. [...] * Documentation: Check our
>> documentation download page [...] * System requirements: Read the
>> system requirements [...] * Installation instructions: [...]
>> * Accessibility information: Read these accessibility tips [...]

> That's it!

> The http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ should be at or near
> the top. It's not anywhere on the page!

What did You *act* to get it there?

> Why haven't you approached
> that forum's management to discuss integration with LibreOffice
> (including branding and design)?

Whom do You ask? This question is one You should ask yourself: Why
haven't *You* approached to do so?

> What is this if not a sign of
> extreme disregard for the wants and needs of ordinary people using
> the software, most of  whom are uncomfortable with, or resistant to,
> using IRC or mailing lists?

indeed! *You* did notice that issue and what was *Your* action?

Again: whom do You accuse? Who should act, if not You?

> I'm afraid that's what Free and Open Source Software is exactly about.

An Open Source Software community is a place to *act* rather than
complain.

[..]

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Le Sun, 17 Apr 2011 11:26:23 -0700 (PDT),
aqualung  a écrit :

> 
> Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> > 
> > But there are existing LibreOffice and OpenOffice forums. I still
> > don't get
> > the point.
> Why aren't the users of LibreOffice being told about them?
> 
> www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ is the Help page. Let's see what it
> says:
> 
> 
> For user support, we have:
> > 
> > * Mailing lists: the user support mailing list address is our
> > main channel for LibreOffice users needing help with a problem
> > [...]index.
> > * IRC channels: come chat with us live on IRC at freenode.net
> > [...]
> > * FAQs: we are compiling a list of frequently-asked questions.
> > [...]
> > * Documentation: Check our documentation download page [...]
> > * System requirements: Read the system requirements [...]
> > * Installation instructions: [...]
> > * Accessibility information: Read these accessibility tips [...]
> That's it!
> 
> The http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ should be at or
> near the top. It's not anywhere on the page! Why haven't you
> approached that forum's management to discuss integration with
> LibreOffice (including branding and design)? What is this if not a
> sign of extreme disregard for the wants and needs of ordinary people
> using the software, most of  whom are uncomfortable with, or
> resistant to, using IRC or mailing lists? 
> 

I really don't think it's an extreme disregard for users or forums. Why
do you even think we would want to disregard them? Please don't talk to
me as if I'm selling you something. TDF is not your ice cream vendor,
and we're not a supermarket either. Also you're voicing one opinion,
not an everlasting truth. We are going to deal with these issues as soon
as we can, so please be patient. We've only existed for 6 months and I
can assure you that we had a gazillion other things to do, some much
more important, some other less important than your issue. But we'll
deal with it in time. 

> 
> I'm afraid that's what Free and Open Source Software is exactly
> about. It's
> > not a pipe dream, it's not about whether people are paid and
> > unpaid, and it's not about serving users as if they were customers
> > either. It's more complex than that (see my take on it:
> > http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2011/03/17/what-does-community-mean-part-2/)
> > and it's not a pipe dream, because Free and Open Source Software is
> > now an important part of IT, whether backed by corporations or not.
> 
> Charles, I read that weeks ago and was less than impressed then. Your
> text has the starry-eyed quality of utopian socialism. 

Socialism? IBM, Novell, Red Hat, Canonical, Google, Oracle, etc. are
hardly socialists. But then you may want to read more on
www.opensource.org , www.opensource.com and www.fsf.org

> 
> I glanced at http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/ to get an
> idea of the people on the board of TDF. There seems to be a huge
> excess of "producers" and a dearth of "consumers". Surely there are
> many organizations with 100+ seats of OpenOffice/LibreOffice, but I
> don't see any representatives from one of them on the board.

We would love to have users contributing to TDF, and I'm sure you
already read our bylaws. The point is what you contribute as it makes
the project go round and grow.

Best,
Charles.

> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Forums-again-tp2830659p2831593.html
> Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[aqualung]

Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> 
> But there are existing LibreOffice and OpenOffice forums. I still don't
> get
> the point.
Why aren't the users of LibreOffice being told about them?

www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ is the Help page. Let's see what it says:


For user support, we have:
> 
> * Mailing lists: the user support mailing list address is our main
> channel for LibreOffice users needing help with a problem [...]index.
> * IRC channels: come chat with us live on IRC at freenode.net [...]
> * FAQs: we are compiling a list of frequently-asked questions. [...]
> * Documentation: Check our documentation download page [...]
> * System requirements: Read the system requirements [...]
> * Installation instructions: [...]
> * Accessibility information: Read these accessibility tips [...]
That's it!

The http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ should be at or near the
top. It's not anywhere on the page! Why haven't you approached that forum's
management to discuss integration with LibreOffice (including branding and
design)? What is this if not a sign of extreme disregard for the wants and
needs of ordinary people using the software, most of  whom are uncomfortable
with, or resistant to, using IRC or mailing lists? 


I'm afraid that's what Free and Open Source Software is exactly about. It's
> not a pipe dream, it's not about whether people are paid and unpaid, and
> it's not about serving users as if they were customers either. It's more
> complex than that (see my take on it:
> http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2011/03/17/what-does-community-mean-part-2/)
> and it's not a pipe dream, because Free and Open Source Software is now an
> important part of IT, whether backed by corporations or not.

Charles, I read that weeks ago and was less than impressed then. Your text
has the starry-eyed quality of utopian socialism. 

I glanced at http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/ to get an idea of
the people on the board of TDF. There seems to be a huge excess of
"producers" and a dearth of "consumers". Surely there are many organizations
with 100+ seats of OpenOffice/LibreOffice, but I don't see any
representatives from one of them on the board.



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello Aqualung,

2011/4/17 aqualung 

> See, I learned about this "forum" (it isn't really a forum, it's something
> concocted out of mailing lists to sort of resemble a real forum) by
> accident
> one month ago, from a
> http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/03/17/flattr-us/ blog comment by
> Florian Effenberger . My suggestion to advertise the existence of this
> Nabble widely has gone unheeded. Honi soit qui mal y pense.
>
> A week ago I
>
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/I-am-downloading-LibreOffice-to-try-it-out-td2790818i20.html#a2802923
> suggested  that talks be opened about collaboration with the
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ premier volunteer OpenOffice
> forum . There was only one unfavorable response, otherwise silence.
>
> So, how are the hundreds of thousands of LibreOffice users going to get
> assistance for their urgent questions? Please don't tell me "mailing
> lists",
> that's a laugh. The numbers tell the story: 2629 topics in "Dev", 802
> topics
> in "Users".
>
>
But there are existing LibreOffice and OpenOffice forums. I still don't get
the point.


> I have been posting comments here for a month, engaging in some
> discussions,
> because I want to learn about open source in general, open-source office
> software, efforts to combat anti-competitive practices, and who the people
> deeply involved are and how they act.
>
> My impressions are decidedly mixed. It doesn't appear to be about the users
> first and foremost. The few users who manage to find their way here aren't
> always served well. I've seen answers that are "out in left field", i.e.,
> unconnected to the question, or no answers at all.
>
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Writer-Problem-with-modern-typefaces-having-more-than-the-standard-styles-td2794737.html
> This person  is still waiting for an answer to a question asked nearly two
> weeks ago, already containing a detailed description of the problem and
> links to bug reports etc.
>
> I keep hearing "freedom", but is it about the freedom of users from being
> locked into a proprietary file format... or the freedom of unattached
> software developers to get their patches committed? Do people here really
> believe that a "community" of unpaid enthusiasts can take the place of a
> major corporation, or several, putting dozens of experienced professional
> developers to work Monday thru Friday, month after month? If so, it's a
> pipe
> dream!
>

I'm afraid that's what Free and Open Source Software is exactly about. It's
not a pipe dream, it's not about whether people are paid and unpaid, and
it's not about serving users as if they were customers either. It's more
complex than that (see my take on it:
http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2011/03/17/what-does-community-mean-part-2/)
and it's not a pipe dream, because Free and Open Source Software is now an
important part of IT, whether backed by corporations or not.

Best,
Charles.


>
> Coming back to the call for a forum, why not let the users decide how they
> would prefer to ask for assistance? Put up a banner on all your websites
> advertising a poll and give the options:
>
> (1) Create new forum from scratch
> (2) Join forces with http://www.oooforum.org/
> (3) Join forces with http://user.services.openoffice.org/
> (4) Mailing lists
> (5) ...
> (6) ...
> (7) ...
> (8) ...
>
> Let the poll run for a month and then implement the top one or two
> vote-getters.
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Forums-again-tp2830659p2831151.html
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>
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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[aqualung]

See, I learned about this "forum" (it isn't really a forum, it's something
concocted out of mailing lists to sort of resemble a real forum) by accident
one month ago, from a 
http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/03/17/flattr-us/ blog comment by
Florian Effenberger . My suggestion to advertise the existence of this
Nabble widely has gone unheeded. Honi soit qui mal y pense.

A week ago I 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/I-am-downloading-LibreOffice-to-try-it-out-td2790818i20.html#a2802923
suggested  that talks be opened about collaboration with the 
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ premier volunteer OpenOffice
forum . There was only one unfavorable response, otherwise silence.

So, how are the hundreds of thousands of LibreOffice users going to get
assistance for their urgent questions? Please don't tell me "mailing lists",
that's a laugh. The numbers tell the story: 2629 topics in "Dev", 802 topics
in "Users".

I have been posting comments here for a month, engaging in some discussions,
because I want to learn about open source in general, open-source office
software, efforts to combat anti-competitive practices, and who the people
deeply involved are and how they act.

My impressions are decidedly mixed. It doesn't appear to be about the users
first and foremost. The few users who manage to find their way here aren't
always served well. I've seen answers that are "out in left field", i.e.,
unconnected to the question, or no answers at all. 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Writer-Problem-with-modern-typefaces-having-more-than-the-standard-styles-td2794737.html
This person  is still waiting for an answer to a question asked nearly two
weeks ago, already containing a detailed description of the problem and
links to bug reports etc.

I keep hearing "freedom", but is it about the freedom of users from being
locked into a proprietary file format... or the freedom of unattached
software developers to get their patches committed? Do people here really
believe that a "community" of unpaid enthusiasts can take the place of a
major corporation, or several, putting dozens of experienced professional
developers to work Monday thru Friday, month after month? If so, it's a pipe
dream!

Coming back to the call for a forum, why not let the users decide how they
would prefer to ask for assistance? Put up a banner on all your websites
advertising a poll and give the options:

(1) Create new forum from scratch
(2) Join forces with http://www.oooforum.org/
(3) Join forces with http://user.services.openoffice.org/
(4) Mailing lists
(5) ...
(6) ...
(7) ...
(8) ...

Let the poll run for a month and then implement the top one or two
vote-getters.

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