Re: [tdf-discuss] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi NoOp, *, I appreciate Your initiative.. Am 08.09.2011 02:16 schrieb NoOp: For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. Those who insist, won't consider. I think it's a good Idea to provide those with kind of guidance or recommendation who don`t know better, and want to express their respect to the attention the audience invests in their request. [..] posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette That page doesn't help much either, You ore someone else are warmly invited to change this. I hacked it together after nobody wanted to volunteer, when I setup that footer entries. So doing the footer thing brought me more work which could have been done from someone else with no special permissions and skills. It *intionally* is a wiki site. ;o)) [..] Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general posting guidelines on the http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ page with complete posting guidelines. +1 on that Even if the final consensus is to only top post... at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists. I think this is not a matter of conensus but more kind of recommendation, how to save the readers effort to catch the message and use the time saved to give useful comments. ;o)) Added Note: I'd originally sent this to the users list as IMO that is where the guidelines are needed most. definitly. So there may be some cross posting in replies. No genuine crossposting so at least consistent threads per mailing list. The better lazy way :o)) Regarding the learn to quote and similar posting guidelines of that kind: They are collected experience of efficient mail/newsgroup communication over a long time - nothing more and nothing less. Long stories could be told about this topic - I try to make it short: As one reading a high number of mails a day and one having project experience (since 2003 OOo membership included) enabling me to give answers at many places, I mostly skip mails which show me the poster doesn't worry about my time and effort reading his post. So I rise my daily range about 50 mails, reading and responding the ones of those writers which show respect to my effort. Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On Thursday 08 Sep 2011 01:16:27 NoOp wrote: For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. [trimmed excellent discussion of the merits of trimming and interspersing replies] NoOp, I applaud your attempt to get some consistency of posting in the LO lists, but I fear you're flogging a dead horse. This is one of those topics that will never go away, and I have seen it discussed ad nauseam | infinitum on many different lists since I starting using Usenet over ten years ago. Nevertheless, I wish you luck. :) Bob -- Registered Linux User #463880 FSFE Member #1300 GPG-FP: A6C1 457C 6DBA B13E 5524 F703 D12A FB79 926B 994E openSUSE 11.4 64-bit, Kernel 2.6.37.6-0.5-desktop, KDE 4.6.5 Intel Core2 Quad Q9400 2.66GHz, 8GB DDR RAM, nVidia GeForce 9600GT -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
The links do not lead me to assume that top posting is expected. If the documentation group desires bottom posting only, the user should be informed when the register. Even then, I expect that most people will miss it. Expecting someone to follow a link and then follow another link seems a wee bit unlikely. Bottom posting is great when a message is not read in context of the other messages. When I read threaded messages, it is annoying to wade through the message history before I arrive at the content of interest. I might prefer, therefore, that people be prodded into seriously shortening content from all previous posters to only contain the portions relevant to their reply. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Yeah! A man without unnecessary limitations. I believe cropping is a solution to the problem. I understand, but dislike being forced to read the whole thread. There is an argument for reading the whole thing but I believe that it does not need to be dogma. regards, Richard. On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 5:10 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak and...@pitonyak.org wrote: The links do not lead me to assume that top posting is expected. If the documentation group desires bottom posting only, the user should be informed when the register. Even then, I expect that most people will miss it. Expecting someone to follow a link and then follow another link seems a wee bit unlikely. Bottom posting is great when a message is not read in context of the other messages. When I read threaded messages, it is annoying to wade through the message history before I arrive at the content of interest. I might prefer, therefore, that people be prodded into seriously shortening content from all previous posters to only contain the portions relevant to their reply. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/**AndrewMacro.odthttp://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+help@**documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-** unsubscribe/http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**documentfoundation.org/www/**discuss/http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/09/2011 10:01 PM, Richard wrote: Yeah! A man without unnecessary limitations. Sadly, I have many unnecessary limitations :-) -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
There is one thing more irritating than top posting. People who rant about it. On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 7:16 AM, NoOp gl...@sbcglobal.net wrote: For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. I realiz(s)e that the existing: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html which includes this bit: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3 quote 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text? Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom, and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will not work, if you place the quoted text below your response. Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on. In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire article, if the context is not obvious. And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.) Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote, in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can delete these parts. So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can achieve by such simple means? /quote and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the desired guideline. Samples of similar on other lists: http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html quote Top-posting vs bottom-posting. Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon. The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting. /quote http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists quote Proper quoting: Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules: Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to. ... /quote and even: http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html quote Replying When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate, remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections. /quote Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's worth mentioning anyway. Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general posting guidelines on the http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ page with complete posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post... at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists. Added Note: I'd originally sent this to the users list as IMO that is where the guidelines are needed most. So there may be some cross posting in replies. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive:
[tdf-discuss] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. I realiz(s)e that the existing: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html which includes this bit: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3 quote 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text? Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom, and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will not work, if you place the quoted text below your response. Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on. In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire article, if the context is not obvious. And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.) Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote, in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can delete these parts. So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can achieve by such simple means? /quote and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the desired guideline. Samples of similar on other lists: http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html quote Top-posting vs bottom-posting. Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon. The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting. /quote http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists quote Proper quoting: Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules: Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to. ... /quote and even: http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html quote Replying When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate, remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections. /quote Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's worth mentioning anyway. Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general posting guidelines on the http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ page with complete posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post... at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists. Added Note: I'd originally sent this to the users list as IMO that is where the guidelines are needed most. So there may be some cross posting in replies. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
