RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?

[Pieter E. Zanstra]

Please make a new topic, don't spoil this thread 

> -Original Message-
> From: NoOp [mailto:gl...@sbcglobal.net] 
> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 1:42 AM
> To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> Subject: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?
> 
> On 05/19/2011 11:03 AM, Andras Timar wrote:
> > 2011/5/19 plino :
> >>
> >> Then I think it's time to create a proper C/C++ ODF importer for 
> >> Word. If this worked properly then this would be a further step in 
> >> promoting ODF as a "de facto" open format alternative.
> >>
> > 
> > ODF support is present in MS Office 2007 SP2 and MS Office 2010 (it 
> > even can be selected as default file format) so what would be your 
> > target? MS Office 2003 and older? It does not look 
> reasonable to me, 
> > because by the time we develop something useable, only a 
> minority of 
> > users will use such old versions of MS Office.
> 
> I think you should keep in mind that many users of LO are 
> folks that simply can't, or won't spend the money to buy 
> Office 2007 (and hence also need to spend even more money to 
> upgrade their systems in order to use it).
> 
> There are *millions* of users that are still using WinXP and 
> older versions of MS Office (think schools, libraries, 
> individuals, small companies, government offices, etc). 
> Granted the ideal situation would be to have all of them 
> install LO, but we know: 1) that just isn't going to happen, 
> 2) and even if they do install LO, they are not going to 
> purge their existing versions of MS Office... it just doesn't 
> work that way.
> 
> An ODF plugin (like the Sun ODF Plugin) could go a long way 
> in gaining trust for existing MS Office users, particularly 
> if it does an LO splashscreen when starting as the Sun one 
> does. However, I also imagine that 
> creating/converting/maintaining such a program would be a 
> huge amount of effort/work. So I doubt that it will happen on 
> LO's watch & think it possible only with the backing of a 
> major ($$$) corporation such as IBM or similar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
> discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
> Posting guidelines + more: 
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and 
> cannot be deleted
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?

[Jean Hollis Weber]

On Thu, 2011-05-19 at 14:18 -0700, plino wrote:
> Hi Jean
> 
> The free version of the Sun ODF Plugin is still available and I often
> > recommend it to the many people I know who are still using MSO 2000, XP,
> > or 
> > 2003.
> >
> 
> But it's a 75Mb download... It's half LO installer :)
> 
> The Open Source Add-in I mentioned is 4.5Mb (it does require .Net 2.0 SP1
> but most Windows PCs already have this, even on Windows XP)
> 
> I didn't try the Sun plugin but if it is as fast and efficient as the Open
> Source version I wouldn't it recommend to a friend ;)


All reports I've heard on it say the Sun plugin worked well, unlike the
"Open Source Add-in" which, from what I've heard, did a very poor job of
conversion in many cases. I don't have the time or energy to look up
those reports, but I think at least one was by Rob Weir.

That said, the Sun ODF Plugin is old enough that it may not deal with
some of the newer features in OOo/LibO. And I agree, the file size is a
disincentive.

--Jean


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?

[Jean Hollis Weber]

On Thu, 2011-05-19 at 10:51 -0700, NoOp wrote:
> Given that Oracle has tossed OOo back over the fence, I wonder if that
> also includes the Sun ODF Plugin... the one they first offered for free,
> and then changed to a purchase. If so, then that might be worth salvaging.


The free version of the Sun ODF Plugin is still available and I often
recommend it to the many people I know who are still using MSO 2000, XP,
or 2003.

http://www.softpedia.com/get/Office-tools/Other-Office-Tools/Sun-ODF-Plugin-for-Microsoft-Office.shtml


--Jean


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?

[Jaime R. Garza]

On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 20:22, plino  wrote:

> > ODF support is present in MS Office 2007 SP2 and MS Office 2010 (it
> > even can be selected as default file format) so what would be your
> > target?
>
>
> MS Office 2003 and older? It does not look reasonable to me,
> > because by the time we develop something useable, only a minority of
> > users will use such old versions of MS Office.
> >
>
> I didn't know that. I'm still a Office 2003 user (and don't intend to
> switch
> to a newer version)
> The famous "ribbon" interface just wasted my time. That is why I love that
> LO has a menu interface PLUS Office 2007/2010 format support (for those
> colleagues who insist on having the latest...) and 1 million lines in Calc
> :)
>
> Forget all I said about ODF Add-ons. Even if the Office 2003 user base is
> large enough now (MS never reveals these numbers, do they? :) ) I agree
> that
> it would not make sense to start such a project now for a product that will
> be unsupported soon (ish... in 2014).
>
> Please concentrate on the updates then :)
>
> Cheers,
> Pedro


I have said it several times, LO should make a light version with Write,
Calc & Presentation ONLY that is available for all platforms including
Androids, iPhones & iPads. There ODF could win a lot of momentum, for the
moment Thinkfree is getting it write, saddly it is a proprietary SW.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?

[Andras Timar]

2011/5/19 plino :
>
> Then I think it's time to create a proper C/C++ ODF importer for Word. If
> this worked properly then this would be a further step in promoting ODF as a
> "de facto" open format alternative.
>

ODF support is present in MS Office 2007 SP2 and MS Office 2010 (it
even can be selected as default file format) so what would be your
target? MS Office 2003 and older? It does not look reasonable to me,
because by the time we develop something useable, only a minority of
users will use such old versions of MS Office.

Regards,
Andras

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?

[Mark Preston]

May I just take the time to agree 100% that this old stuff is, or
should be, dead and buried so we can move on. Remember, we are not
alone in forking from Oracle this way - for instance the Drizzle
database (by ex-MSQL developers) is now rated best non-proprietary
database option and this month LibreOffice was for the first time
similarly rated as the best non-proprietary office option.

Frankly, there is only Java left before Oracle burns all the bridges
it bought. So let's just move on and do what we are here for.

On 18/05/2011 11:05, Cor Nouws wrote:
> Hi Ben,
> 
> This discussion is a bit, as we say in Dutch "ouwe koeien uit de sloot
> halen" :-)   (hmm, old stuff that maybe you shouldn't care about any
> longer)
> 
> I have seen moments too in the first months of TDF that did not feel
> so good. However ...
> 
> BRM wrote (18-05-11 11:53):
>> While I was originally optimistic that TDF/LO would be better than
>> Sun/Oracle
>> OOo, as a result I have yet to see that happen.
>> That's not to say it isn't happening or the community isn't taking
>> over - I'm
>> just waiting a bit longer to see.
>>
>> So for now yes, I continue to use OOo. If TDF/LO shows it is truly a
>> community
>> project and not ruled by a benevolent few that are forcing the hands
>> of the
>> community, then I will likely switch over and start participating
>> more - until
>> then I shall continue to watch.
> 
> .. in this community there is no single person or party pushing
> decisions. All that participate have a saying. But of course, most in
> areas where your participation is relevant. And sure, still some
> processes are not perfect. But that is noticed and people involved
> discuss about how it works and haw to improve.
> 
> Be welcome.
> 
> Best,
> Cor
> 
> 

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?

[Olivier Hallot]

Hi

Em 18-05-2011 07:05, Cor Nouws escreveu:

Hi Ben,

(snip)


.. in this community there is no single person or party pushing
decisions. All that participate have a saying. But of course, most in
areas where your participation is relevant. And sure, still some
processes are not perfect. But that is noticed and people involved
discuss about how it works and haw to improve.

Be welcome.

Best,
Cor


Yes and to support Cor, TDF has several channels open to the community 
for participation, and it includes lists and live conference calls.


Regards
--
Olivier Hallot
Founder, Steering Commitee Member - The Document Foundation
Voicing the enterprise needs
LibreOffice translation leader for Brazilian Portuguese
+55-21-8822-8812

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Ben,

This discussion is a bit, as we say in Dutch "ouwe koeien uit de sloot 
halen" :-)   (hmm, old stuff that maybe you shouldn't care about any longer)


I have seen moments too in the first months of TDF that did not feel so 
good. However ...


BRM wrote (18-05-11 11:53):

While I was originally optimistic that TDF/LO would be better than Sun/Oracle
OOo, as a result I have yet to see that happen.
That's not to say it isn't happening or the community isn't taking over - I'm
just waiting a bit longer to see.

So for now yes, I continue to use OOo. If TDF/LO shows it is truly a community
project and not ruled by a benevolent few that are forcing the hands of the
community, then I will likely switch over and start participating more - until
then I shall continue to watch.


.. in this community there is no single person or party pushing 
decisions. All that participate have a saying. But of course, most in 
areas where your participation is relevant. And sure, still some 
processes are not perfect. But that is noticed and people involved 
discuss about how it works and haw to improve.


Be welcome.

Best,
Cor


--
 - http://nl.libreoffice.org
 - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?

[BRM]

 - Original Message 

> From: Thorsten Behrens 
> To: BRM 
> Cc: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 5:34:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?
> 
> BRM wrote:
> > In some cases, the community decision was aligned with  the
> > members, but they stilled didn't take to the decision through  the
> > community but through what they wanted so it the decision  seemed
> > more forced on the community than decided by the community even  in
> > those cases
> >
> well, the thing with decision  making is that invariably, you'll make
> people unhappy - that said, the  canonical answer to your problem is,
> strive for, and apply for membership. In  contrast to the OOo
> project, members collectively have a true say  here.
> > - e.g. go back and read the Copyright Assignment  discussion.
> >
> Um - surely that's a bad example for deciding against the  community
> - since all of the developer community made it abundantly clear  that
> they don't like copyright assignment so much?  ;)
> 

You missed the point. That was actually an example where they made the right 
decision but for the wrong reason. Yes the developers were overwhelmingly for 
not having any copyright assignment; however, the 3 people founding TDF at the 
time decided long before the community came to that decision not to do it and 
didn't really even listen to the community, participate beneficially in the 
discussion, etc. So as I said, the decision seemed forced upon the community 
rather than decided by the community even though the community did agree on 
that 
issue.

On the other hand, there were discussions regarding the GO-OO patches as well 
as 
whether or not to support writing OOXML - topics that were sidelined in favor 
of 
a decision by the same 3 people rather than listening to the community. So 
again, decisions that affect the community - some of which have potentially 
legal impacts and pitfalls - were decided not by the community but forced by a 
couple people.

While I was originally optimistic that TDF/LO would be better than Sun/Oracle 
OOo, as a result I have yet to see that happen.
That's not to say it isn't happening or the community isn't taking over - I'm 
just waiting a bit longer to see.

So for now yes, I continue to use OOo. If TDF/LO shows it is truly a community 
project and not ruled by a benevolent few that are forcing the hands of the 
community, then I will likely switch over and start participating more - until 
then I shall continue to watch.

Ben


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?

[Thorsten Behrens]

BRM wrote:
> In some cases, the community decision was aligned with the
> members, but they stilled didn't take to the decision through the
> community but through what they wanted so it the decision seemed
> more forced on the community than decided by the community even in
> those cases
>
Hi Ben,

well, the thing with decision making is that invariably, you'll make
people unhappy - that said, the canonical answer to your problem is,
strive for, and apply for membership. In contrast to the OOo
project, members collectively have a true say here.

> - e.g. go back and read the Copyright Assignment discussion.
>
Um - surely that's a bad example for deciding against the community
- since all of the developer community made it abundantly clear that
they don't like copyright assignment so much? ;)

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?

[BRM]

- Original Message 

> From: Italo Vignoli 
> On 5/17/11 4:17 PM, BRM wrote:
> > Personally I hope Oracle doesn't drop  the ball on it and that OpenOffice 
>proper
> > can become a true community  lead project as I haven't yet seen anything 
> > from 
>the
> > leadership of TDF  to give me confidence they are not doing the same thing 
>they
> > blamed  Oracle for, just in a slightly different fashion. (Thus why I've 
been
> >  lurking more.)
> 
> Being a member of the Steering Committee of TDF, and  having some problems in 
>understanding the meaning of your sentence, may I ask  you to be more specific 
>on "the same thing they blamed Oracle for"?  Thanks.
> 

Since you asked...

As I participated in a number of discussions early on, I noticed a lot of 
things 
where the founding people just rammed through their opinion without really 
listening to the community.
In some cases, the community decision was aligned with the members, but they 
stilled didn't take to the decision through the community but through what they 
wanted so it the decision seemed more forced on the community than decided by 
the community even in those cases - e.g. go back and read the Copyright 
Assignment discussion.

So while I do hope that the TDF leadership does start listening to the 
community, etc. I have yet to see that really happen any better than Oracle was 
doing.

Ben


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?

[Italo Vignoli]

On 05/17/2011 05:17 PM, plino wrote:


@Italo, since you are indeed a member of the SC, can you share with the
community more information about the original topic, please?


Apart from reiterating that we see one community going forward, as we 
always did (when we originally invited Oracle to join TDF), we do not 
have more information than those available to all of you. Every other 
comment on the future of OOo would be a speculation.


I can only add that Oracle fiscal year ends on May 31, and this is 
prolly a deadline for a second announcement about the future of OOo.


I can also suggest to have a look at Oracle SEC filings, which are 
available on Oracle web site, and especially presentations to analysts 
and Forms 10-Q (2009 and 2010). These documents provide an insight on 
investments and product strategies, and might help in understanding.


But, again, given the amount of informations available, any comment on 
the future of OOo would be a speculation.


--
Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation
email italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
phone +39.348.5653829 - VoIP +39.02.320621813
skype italovignoli - italo.vign...@gmail.com

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?

[Italo Vignoli]

On 5/17/11 4:17 PM, BRM wrote:


Personally I hope Oracle doesn't drop the ball on it and that OpenOffice proper
can become a true community lead project as I haven't yet seen anything from the
leadership of TDF to give me confidence they are not doing the same thing they
blamed Oracle for, just in a slightly different fashion. (Thus why I've been
lurking more.)


Being a member of the Steering Committee of TDF, and having some 
problems in understanding the meaning of your sentence, may I ask you to 
be more specific on "the same thing they blamed Oracle for"? Thanks.


--
Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation
email italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
phone +39.348.5653829 - VoIP +39.02.320621813
skype italovignoli - italo.vign...@gmail.com

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: OpenOffice dead and burried?

[BRM]

- Original Message 

> From: Alexander Thurgood 
> Le 17/05/11 12:49, plino a écrit :
> > What do they  mean by "handing it back"? Are they giving up on the 
OpenOffice
> >  brand?
> > 
> > Can someone from TDF shed some light?
> 
> Nobody  seems to know, or if they do, they are keeping wraps on it. The
> people still  around on the openoffice.org lists are equally at a loss as
> to what is really going on. Oracle has just  shutdown comms. On the
> German OOo discuss list, some people have been  alluding to the fact that
> the lights are being switched off in Hamburg where  the majority of OOo
> development took place, and I have noticed a distinct  reduction of input
> from Oracle employees on the OOo lists for a while now,  not a complete
> lack, but certainly a significant reduction bordering on the  void.
> 


Not saying that this is related at all, but the timing was rather interesting 
on 
the whole situation.
I was at a conference in late March where a presenter talked about OpenOffice 
and LibreOffice for business uses; a couple Oracle folks were there.
Over the course of it, we ended up mentioning the Copyright Assignment issue 
and 
the LibreOffice would be able to get updates from OpenOffice but not vice versa 
as a result - at least those two employees were not aware of that issue.
So, don't know what's happening, and not saying that's related at all, but it 
was just very interesting timing overall.

Personally I hope Oracle doesn't drop the ball on it and that OpenOffice proper 
can become a true community lead project as I haven't yet seen anything from 
the 
leadership of TDF to give me confidence they are not doing the same thing they 
blamed Oracle for, just in a slightly different fashion. (Thus why I've been 
lurking more.)

Ben


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted