Re: [IxDA Discuss] References to clients/colleagues/managers/companies in social networking discussions/posting
On Jul 2, 2009, at 2:05 PM, Chauncey Wilson wrote: While I see your point about archiving and understand your objections, knowing that your statements are archived in a public database or Googleable (not sure if that is a word) can certainly influence how freely one discusses a topic and how much detail to include and what to discuss. One's perceptions of the extent to which conversations are saved and distributed and accessible to others can influence the style and content of conversations. Social norms (whether you like them or not) and other social psych principles do have an impact on one's interactions over social networks. I agree. Knowing that something is archived changes behavior. My point was that the group you're refering to pretends that it's ok to talk freely, when, in fact, it has the same consequences as a group that's archived. Since the membership role isn't published and anyone who asks to join is let in, you can never be sure who is seeing the content you want to "talk freely" about. Since you can never be sure, your behavior will also change. The only difference is the group insists its different when it really isn't. Isn't that more insidious? I think so. Jared Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] References to clients/colleagues/managers/companies in social networking discussions/posting
Chauncey Wilson: "I'm curious what others think about twittering during a session? " I've spoken at quite a few events with an endless background noise of keyboards tickering away, but it's no problem. As long as people don't have a conversation, I don't mind. In terms of having something like usenet's x-noarchive header field, it often doesn't work - for example, if someone quotes the message of someone who chose not to be archived, it has little effect. In reality, it's not workable and this may give some people a false sense of security and encourage them to make posts that they later truly regret. At least with everything being archived, everyone knows exactly where they stand. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=43305 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] References to clients/colleagues/managers/companies in social networking discussions/posting
re: privacy and sensitivity of your messages I agree w/ Jared 100%. EVERYTHING you send over the intertubes is public record unless it is encrypted between the sender and destination(s). Any additions to the system are tantamount to TSA regulations which create a false understanding of the system and in the end cause more grief than they are worth. I would highlight this to be especially true on a technology interest group like this one. re: twittering during events The gain far out plays the negatives. As someone who speaks often I LOVE it for any group bigger than 30. I can see how smaller groups are probably more about discussion internally and the speakers ability to track individuals during the talk increase. So get yourself an iPhone to type on. they don't make a sound. ;) I would also caution an "organization" from making any blanket statements in this regard. This is really between an individual speaker and his audience. -- dave . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=43305 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] References to clients/colleagues/managers/companies in social networking discussions/posting
You make some great points Jared. While I see your point about archiving and understand your objections, knowing that your statements are archived in a public database or Googleable (not sure if that is a word) can certainly influence how freely one discusses a topic and how much detail to include and what to discuss. One's perceptions of the extent to which conversations are saved and distributed and accessible to others can influence the style and content of conversations. Social norms (whether you like them or not) and other social psych principles do have an impact on one's interactions over social networks. You are right that anyone can forward a message of course. No disagreement there. However, there are risks for forwarding based on the appropriate social, business, and legal constraints. Perhaps there should be strict no-forward choice for emails as well as a no-archive choice (whoa, another controversy) :-). So there are several things that are important with regard to conversations on social networking systems. 1. Consider that your conversations are public and could be forwarded 2. Ask whether there is an archive and how accessible it is 3. Avoid inflammatory language. 4. Consider whether what you are discussing would be perceived as proprietary. 5. Engage in strong debates, but don't flame or be abusive. While we are on this topic - there is a pretty lively discussion at UPA about Twittering during sessions, especially with loud keyboards. I'm curious what others think about twittering during a session? Chauncey On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Jared Spool wrote: > > On Jul 2, 2009, at 6:10 AM, Chauncey Wilson wrote: > >> It would be useful to be able to choose whether you wanted something >> archived or not. I'm on another group where we don't archive any of >> the conversations (people can of course, save copies) to encourage >> more freedom of speech and less concern over the issues we've been >> discussing. Of course, some people disagree with the no-archive >> policy, but overall, it seems to work and the policy is clearly >> spelled out when you join. That approach is more like a conversation >> where you are not being recorded the entire time. > > It's a falsity that the group that doesn't archive is somehow more free to > have conversations that this group, which does archive. > > As a member of that group, you never know who else is on the list. You don't > know who is saving messages or who might forward them to someone else. (The > group has a policy that you not supposed to forward, but there's no way to > enforce it.) > > So, even in a group which doesn't archive, you can't assure the sender that > a client/colleague/manager or someone else won't see the email. > > In my opinion, it would be detrimental to the long-term social value of this > group to have a choice of archiving. If you gave the choice on individual > messages, then threads would be sporadic (not to mention the problem of > quoting unarchived messages in archived responses). If you gave the choice > on entire threads, then important information would be missing, making the > value of the archives unreliable. > > The reality is that once you press the SEND button in any email, that > message is then broadcast to hundreds of computers, logged, and archived on > systems you don't even know exist. (For Sarbanes-Oxley compliance, many US > corporations now log every incoming and outgoing message.) > > So, if you don't want someone to see your thoughts, don't put them in an > email. Period. > > My $0.02. > > Jared > > Jared M. Spool > User Interface Engineering > 510 Turnpike St., Suite 102, North Andover, MA 01845 > e: jsp...@uie.com p: +1 978 327 5561 > http://uie.com Blog: http://uie.com/brainsparks Twitter: @jmspool > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] References to clients/colleagues/managers/companies in social networking discussions/posting
On Jul 2, 2009, at 6:10 AM, Chauncey Wilson wrote: It would be useful to be able to choose whether you wanted something archived or not. I'm on another group where we don't archive any of the conversations (people can of course, save copies) to encourage more freedom of speech and less concern over the issues we've been discussing. Of course, some people disagree with the no-archive policy, but overall, it seems to work and the policy is clearly spelled out when you join. That approach is more like a conversation where you are not being recorded the entire time. It's a falsity that the group that doesn't archive is somehow more free to have conversations that this group, which does archive. As a member of that group, you never know who else is on the list. You don't know who is saving messages or who might forward them to someone else. (The group has a policy that you not supposed to forward, but there's no way to enforce it.) So, even in a group which doesn't archive, you can't assure the sender that a client/colleague/manager or someone else won't see the email. In my opinion, it would be detrimental to the long-term social value of this group to have a choice of archiving. If you gave the choice on individual messages, then threads would be sporadic (not to mention the problem of quoting unarchived messages in archived responses). If you gave the choice on entire threads, then important information would be missing, making the value of the archives unreliable. The reality is that once you press the SEND button in any email, that message is then broadcast to hundreds of computers, logged, and archived on systems you don't even know exist. (For Sarbanes-Oxley compliance, many US corporations now log every incoming and outgoing message.) So, if you don't want someone to see your thoughts, don't put them in an email. Period. My $0.02. Jared Jared M. Spool User Interface Engineering 510 Turnpike St., Suite 102, North Andover, MA 01845 e: jsp...@uie.com p: +1 978 327 5561 http://uie.com Blog: http://uie.com/brainsparks Twitter: @jmspool Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] References to clients/colleagues/managers/companies in social networking discussions/posting
It would be useful to be able to choose whether you wanted something archived or not. I'm on another group where we don't archive any of the conversations (people can of course, save copies) to encourage more freedom of speech and less concern over the issues we've been discussing. Of course, some people disagree with the no-archive policy, but overall, it seems to work and the policy is clearly spelled out when you join. That approach is more like a conversation where you are not being recorded the entire time. Chauncey On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 4:06 PM, michele marut wrote: > I agree with Joshua about awareness of items being on-line forever. As > a community awareness thing , I'd like to add that the IXDA list is > not just distributed on email to be found by google at some point - > but is publicly archived on the website. I'm posting this now from > the site. Therefore anyone can google your name or email and find > your postings. > > > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > Posted from the new ixda.org > http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=43305 > > > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] References to clients/colleagues/managers/companies in social networking discussions/posting
I agree with Joshua about awareness of items being on-line forever. As a community awareness thing , I'd like to add that the IXDA list is not just distributed on email to be found by google at some point - but is publicly archived on the website. I'm posting this now from the site. Therefore anyone can google your name or email and find your postings. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=43305 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] References to clients/colleagues/managers/companies in social networking discussions/posting
This is why I do my best to never say anything I will be ashamed of, ever. It doesn't mean I might not call a client "crazy" but I'd only do that if I was willing to defend my statement to the client. Also, MC Frontalot has a song that sort of relates to this discussion (link to lyrics, not AV media): http://frontalot.com/index.php/?page=lyrics&lyricid=41 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=43305 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] References to clients/colleagues/managers/companies in social networking discussions/posting
My eye-opener was when I discovered that all of those 20th century posts to netnews (over our high-speed 19.2 dial up UUNET connection) were acquired by Google and indexed and made freely available. People are very much oblivious to the idea that things posted online are forever. How many websites have tried in vain to purge regretable content**, only to see it dredged up (in the short term) in Google's cache or (in the long term) by the Wayback machine? ** I was Stalinized by a former employer who at one time referred to me (correctly) as a founder, and then later eliminated all traces of that title, except for all of those cached press releases. Oops. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=43305 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] References to clients/colleagues/managers/companies in social networking discussions/posting
I have to agree with you Chauncey. You never know who is reading the stuff you put out there for the world. And it is still the case that the UX world is a small one. Coming from a consulting background it has been a strong lesson that you must always use even greater discretion than you think! Traci Lepore Graphic Designer traci...@hotmail.com 617-821-2156 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] References to clients/colleagues/managers/companies in social networking discussions/posting
There is a balance to be struck, definitely. I've spent a couple years all but paralyzed over whether my personal blog can be found and it'd somehow affect my career because I express some strong (while still largely mainstream) political beliefs in it. Most people have at least has one bad boss story, and in my case, it'd weaken the story to irrelevance if I redacted too much of it to not identify the company or person, so with my method, I simply can't share it online. Even the straightforward purpose of Glassdoor.com is tough for me, since I've mostly worked for small companies wherein I was one of a small and distinct UX team. So yes, I completely agree, we should be careful, but on the other hand, you choose your level of risk. A former boss and current friend pretty much speaks his mind openly in a way that sometimes makes me cringe when I think about "oh noes! potential job opportunity, chance for promotion or networking!" He simply views the situation differently: he'll take that risk for the freedom to say what he wants. I'm trying to find the middle ground :] Cheers, Scott On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Chauncey Wilson wrote: > There was a message earlier today that had a lively discussion about > printing out passwords, but the subject line brings up another > meta-issue of how we address those we work with/for. The subject line > referred to "crazy client". In this world of social networking and > myriad connections, should we be careful about references to those we > work with. I've seen Twitter messages where people are talking about > their "bad manager" and "their crazy company" and wonder how these > references might hurt in the long run. I know of a few instances > where private things got back to managers and the result was not > pretty. You never know who is on a discussion for sure - your client > or manager might be "on the line" without awareness or someone in > his/her organization. > > I'm curious what others think about this. > > Thanks, > Chauncey > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] References to clients/colleagues/managers/companies in social networking discussions/posting
Chauncey, So glad you brought this up, that was the first thing that came to mind when I read the title this morning. I completely agree with your stance. I prefer a non-destructive path, personally. Although some people are okay with burning their bridges. It's kind of a no-brainer for me. If it's on the internet, there's a chance it will come back to me. If not, I'm naive at best, or careless at worst. Either way, it's bad manners, but it's a personal choice/approach to life. And I respect that freedom over any enforcement of etiquette. Live and let live. Cheers, Jason R. -- Jason Robb ja...@jasonrobb.com http://jasonrobb.com http://uxboston.com http://uiscraps.tumblr.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=43305 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
[IxDA Discuss] References to clients/colleagues/managers/companies in social networking discussions/posting
There was a message earlier today that had a lively discussion about printing out passwords, but the subject line brings up another meta-issue of how we address those we work with/for. The subject line referred to "crazy client". In this world of social networking and myriad connections, should we be careful about references to those we work with. I've seen Twitter messages where people are talking about their "bad manager" and "their crazy company" and wonder how these references might hurt in the long run. I know of a few instances where private things got back to managers and the result was not pretty. You never know who is on a discussion for sure - your client or manager might be "on the line" without awareness or someone in his/her organization. I'm curious what others think about this. Thanks, Chauncey Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
