Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] How to retire membership status?

[María Arias de Reyna]

This is me writing as a person, not as board. This is my personal opinion.
Again: not the board, not the president speaking. Nothing official. Just me.

On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 11:03 AM, Christian Willmes 
wrote:

> I think this email, cited by Sara Safavi, from Marc Vloemans [1] is just
> unbelievable and thus unacceptable to this community.
>
Personally I agree with you that it was an uncomfortable situation easy to
misinterpret. I wasn't comfortable either reading it. (me, the person, not
the board)

The thing is, we still have this "assume good intent" clause on the CoC
that makes it kind of useless on the gray area. So if Marc says that his
intention hasn't to harass Sara, that's it. He didn't do anything that is
officially bad. And I haven't asked Marc about his intentions, so I have to
assume good intent on this words. Misinterpretable? Uncomfortable? Sure,
but not wrong according to current CoC. We are all humans, everybody slips
sometimes and the wording doesn't come out as it should. And there should
be some kind of mediation system so we all learn what we did that made
other people uncomfortable so we can improve and do better next time. This,
assuming the intention was not to harass (which is what I personally
decided to believe as I don't think Marc is a bad person).

Personally I plan to review the CoC and make stronger rules to prevent
situations that can make people uncomfortable, no matter intention, no
matter wording. But as all my OSGeo work is done on my free time, I have to
wait until my holidays to do something about it. And as all my requests for
volunteers to do this have failed, I don't expect anyone to do anything
about it.

So again, please, can someone volunteer to help in improving this? It is a
huge work to do it right and if it has to be me alone working on it, I can
assure you, it won't be quick. More situations like this will happen until
I can have something final.

> I demand a public apology by Marc Vloemans for his accusations against
> Sara Safavi and the OSGeo organisation and community. Furthermore, I demand
> the OSGeo board to force LT to publish the financial records as a matter of
> course. I also suggest to discontinue any relationships with LocationTech
> if there is no public apology for this incident.
>
As a personal opinion, I think LocationTech has nothing to do with that
discussion. I haven't seen any official statement from LT in that thread
(maybe I missed it?). Furthermore, the agreement with LT for FOSS4GNA
didn't include any budget disclosure so they are not forced to show us
anything. We can change that for future events, but not for past events, if
they don't want to do it. So, personally I would leave LT out of the topic.

Going back to the main topic, this topic about being comfortable on the
community worries me (not only this specific case, but more cases I have
seen). So for sure I/we are going to move it inside the community (not only
as a task for the board, why should it be a task for the board?).

Specifically for the board actions, remember that we are volunteers and it
is difficult to make all of us be available to work at the same time. So
for this delicate issues, nobody can't expect a response from the board
that is quick. We need to think, discuss and decide. And that takes time.
We are not full time workers for OSGeo, we are volunteers. That's important
to remember.

I'm sorry for Sara and I really would prefer if she doesn't leave. But I
understand her concerns, so I can't blame her for her decision. I have done
similar things in the past in other organizations. Now I am more a fighter
and prefer to stay, but it is still her decision to fight or not. If she's
not comfortable, I can just hope to make OSGeo more friendly in the future
so she can come back.

(And, if you are wondering, no, this is not because Sara is my friend. In
fact, I barely know her. So don't try to read between lines, I would do the
same with anyone in the same situation).

Again, all this was my personal opinion. Not the board, don't blame the
board for anything here. The rest of the members don't know about this
email. This is my personal action.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] How to retire membership status?

[Christian Willmes]

I think this email, cited by Sara Safavi, from Marc Vloemans [1] is just 
unbelievable and thus unacceptable to this community.


I demand a public apology by Marc Vloemans for his accusations against 
Sara Safavi and the OSGeo organisation and community. Furthermore, I 
demand the OSGeo board to force LocationTech to publish the finacial 
records as a matter of course. I also suggest to discontinue any 
relationships with LocationTech if there is no public apology for this 
incident.


If we (OSGeo) fail to make it at clear as possible, that mafia-like 
behavior of silencing very valid requests about holding a promise for 
transparency (i.e. a core value of our community), is unacceptable and 
thus will not be accepted by any means. Otherwise THIS will become very 
toxic for OSGeo indeed.



[1] https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/conference_dev/2018-June/004774.html


Am 21.06.2018 um 23:50 schrieb Sara:

Hi Cameron, all,

I was originally trying to avoid any semblance of "stirring up 
trouble", but I think I messed up and need to be clearer.


Earlier in this thread I said:
> It's not a matter of hurtful words, though; it's no longer wanting to be affiliated with a 
community whose members make open threats to my employment. I like & 
need my job too much to continue making myself a target for that.


For the benefit of anyone on discuss@ who is not also on 
conference_dev@, I am referring to the message I replied to here:

https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/conference_dev/2018-June/004774.html

To be excessively clear: after the above exchange, I do not feel safe 
participating further in a community which has *officers* who can 
attempt to threaten my livelihood unchallenged, simply because I 
persisted in asking a question.


As I told Jeff earlier, I'll still be out here "doing the work" but 
the OSGeo community no longer feels like a safe or welcoming place for 
me to do that from.


Cameron said:
> We should do our best to ensure opinions are stated respectfully, and 
encourage forgiveness when we slip up and get a bit passionate.


I'm not sure who you are referring to with this, but please do let me 
know if you mean me.


Regards,
Sara

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 3:01 PM, Cameron Shorter 
mailto:cameron.shor...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Sara,

+1 to Jeff and Maxi's words of personal support.

We are an effective community when people feel welcomed and
participate. This doesn't happen when people leave, either
silently (as is usually the case), or publicly as you have
suggested here. We should be able to hear people's opinions and
respect their right to say them. We should do our best to ensure
opinions are stated respectfully, and encourage forgiveness when
we slip up and get a bit passionate.

(We say as much in our Code of Conduct).
https://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct/


Warm regards, Cameron



On 21/6/18 12:26 am, Jeff McKenna wrote:

Hi Sara,

Although we haven't (yet) shared FOSS4G travels together I
have to say that I truly admire your passion and efforts, and
we share a lot of the same traits (do-ing, asking questions,
diving in, etc.)  I strongly second Maxi's words.  You are a
leader and a big part of the OSGeo community.  Much of what
you have been saying or asking I've been literally taking
notes of how we can improve.  In fact I see you taking on more
of a role and not less.  I am just speaking from the heart and
being open.

I know how the written word can be so hurtful these days (and
I don't want / but yet know that unfortunately my own words
here can be misinterpreted as taking one side versus another),
but I hope this public support shown here can give you renewed
hope and energy for the OSGeo community.

I encourage you to keep being you.

-jeff



On 2018-06-19 2:03 PM, Sara wrote:

Hello community,

Can someone point me at the relevant documentation re:
retiring current membership status? Specifically, related
to Charter membership.

I understand the processes to nominate & add new charter
members but not clear on how current charter members can
retire.

To put it another way: how to edit
https://www.osgeo.org/about/charter-members/

>?

Thanks,
Sara Safavi


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-- 
Cameron 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] How to retire membership status?

[Sara]

Hi Cameron, all,

I was originally trying to avoid any semblance of "stirring up trouble",
but I think I messed up and need to be clearer.

Earlier in this thread I said:
> It's not a matter of hurtful words, though; it's no longer wanting to be
affiliated with a community whose members make open threats to my
employment. I like & need my job too much to continue making myself a
target for that.

For the benefit of anyone on discuss@ who is not also on conference_dev@, I
am referring to the message I replied to here:
https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/conference_dev/2018-June/004774.html

To be excessively clear: after the above exchange, I do not feel safe
participating further in a community which has *officers* who can attempt
to threaten my livelihood unchallenged, simply because I persisted in
asking a question.

As I told Jeff earlier, I'll still be out here "doing the work" but the
OSGeo community no longer feels like a safe or welcoming place for me to do
that from.

Cameron said:
> We should do our best to ensure opinions are stated respectfully, and
encourage forgiveness when we slip up and get a bit passionate.

I'm not sure who you are referring to with this, but please do let me know
if you mean me.

Regards,
Sara

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 3:01 PM, Cameron Shorter 
wrote:

> Sara,
>
> +1 to Jeff and Maxi's words of personal support.
>
> We are an effective community when people feel welcomed and participate.
> This doesn't happen when people leave, either silently (as is usually the
> case), or publicly as you have suggested here. We should be able to hear
> people's opinions and respect their right to say them. We should do our
> best to ensure opinions are stated respectfully, and encourage forgiveness
> when we slip up and get a bit passionate.
>
> (We say as much in our Code of Conduct). https://www.osgeo.org/code_of_
> conduct/
>
> Warm regards, Cameron
>
>
>
> On 21/6/18 12:26 am, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>
>> Hi Sara,
>>
>> Although we haven't (yet) shared FOSS4G travels together I have to say
>> that I truly admire your passion and efforts, and we share a lot of the
>> same traits (do-ing, asking questions, diving in, etc.)  I strongly second
>> Maxi's words.  You are a leader and a big part of the OSGeo community.
>> Much of what you have been saying or asking I've been literally taking
>> notes of how we can improve.  In fact I see you taking on more of a role
>> and not less.  I am just speaking from the heart and being open.
>>
>> I know how the written word can be so hurtful these days (and I don't
>> want / but yet know that unfortunately my own words here can be
>> misinterpreted as taking one side versus another), but I hope this public
>> support shown here can give you renewed hope and energy for the OSGeo
>> community.
>>
>> I encourage you to keep being you.
>>
>> -jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2018-06-19 2:03 PM, Sara wrote:
>>
>>> Hello community,
>>>
>>> Can someone point me at the relevant documentation re: retiring current
>>> membership status? Specifically, related to Charter membership.
>>>
>>> I understand the processes to nominate & add new charter members but not
>>> clear on how current charter members can retire.
>>>
>>> To put it another way: how to edit https://www.osgeo.org/about/ch
>>> arter-members/ ?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Sara Safavi
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>
> --
> Cameron Shorter
> Technology Demystifier
> Open Technologies and Geospatial Consultant
>
> M +61 (0) 419 142 254
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] How to retire membership status?

[Cameron Shorter]

Sara,

+1 to Jeff and Maxi's words of personal support.

We are an effective community when people feel welcomed and participate. 
This doesn't happen when people leave, either silently (as is usually 
the case), or publicly as you have suggested here. We should be able to 
hear people's opinions and respect their right to say them. We should do 
our best to ensure opinions are stated respectfully, and encourage 
forgiveness when we slip up and get a bit passionate.


(We say as much in our Code of Conduct). 
https://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct/


Warm regards, Cameron


On 21/6/18 12:26 am, Jeff McKenna wrote:

Hi Sara,

Although we haven't (yet) shared FOSS4G travels together I have to say 
that I truly admire your passion and efforts, and we share a lot of 
the same traits (do-ing, asking questions, diving in, etc.)  I 
strongly second Maxi's words.  You are a leader and a big part of the 
OSGeo community.  Much of what you have been saying or asking I've 
been literally taking notes of how we can improve.  In fact I see you 
taking on more of a role and not less.  I am just speaking from the 
heart and being open.


I know how the written word can be so hurtful these days (and I don't 
want / but yet know that unfortunately my own words here can be 
misinterpreted as taking one side versus another), but I hope this 
public support shown here can give you renewed hope and energy for the 
OSGeo community.


I encourage you to keep being you.

-jeff



On 2018-06-19 2:03 PM, Sara wrote:

Hello community,

Can someone point me at the relevant documentation re: retiring 
current membership status? Specifically, related to Charter membership.


I understand the processes to nominate & add new charter members but 
not clear on how current charter members can retire.


To put it another way: how to edit 
https://www.osgeo.org/about/charter-members/ 
?


Thanks,
Sara Safavi



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--
Cameron Shorter
Technology Demystifier
Open Technologies and Geospatial Consultant

M +61 (0) 419 142 254

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] How to retire membership status?

[Sara]

Thanks Jeff, Maxi. I appreciate both of your messages!

It's not a matter of hurtful words, though; it's no longer wanting to be
affiliated with a community whose members make open threats to my
employment. I like & need my job too much to continue making myself a
target for that.

Don't worry, I'll still be out here evangelizing/supporting/contributing to
open source geo software.

Cheers,
Sara

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 9:26 AM, Jeff McKenna  wrote:

> Hi Sara,
>
> Although we haven't (yet) shared FOSS4G travels together I have to say
> that I truly admire your passion and efforts, and we share a lot of the
> same traits (do-ing, asking questions, diving in, etc.)  I strongly second
> Maxi's words.  You are a leader and a big part of the OSGeo community.
> Much of what you have been saying or asking I've been literally taking
> notes of how we can improve.  In fact I see you taking on more of a role
> and not less.  I am just speaking from the heart and being open.
>
> I know how the written word can be so hurtful these days (and I don't want
> / but yet know that unfortunately my own words here can be misinterpreted
> as taking one side versus another), but I hope this public support shown
> here can give you renewed hope and energy for the OSGeo community.
>
> I encourage you to keep being you.
>
> -jeff
>
>
>
> On 2018-06-19 2:03 PM, Sara wrote:
>
>> Hello community,
>>
>> Can someone point me at the relevant documentation re: retiring current
>> membership status? Specifically, related to Charter membership.
>>
>> I understand the processes to nominate & add new charter members but not
>> clear on how current charter members can retire.
>>
>> To put it another way: how to edit https://www.osgeo.org/about/ch
>> arter-members/ ?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Sara Safavi
>>
>>
>> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] How to retire membership status?

[Jeff McKenna]

Hi Sara,

Although we haven't (yet) shared FOSS4G travels together I have to say 
that I truly admire your passion and efforts, and we share a lot of the 
same traits (do-ing, asking questions, diving in, etc.)  I strongly 
second Maxi's words.  You are a leader and a big part of the OSGeo 
community.  Much of what you have been saying or asking I've been 
literally taking notes of how we can improve.  In fact I see you taking 
on more of a role and not less.  I am just speaking from the heart and 
being open.


I know how the written word can be so hurtful these days (and I don't 
want / but yet know that unfortunately my own words here can be 
misinterpreted as taking one side versus another), but I hope this 
public support shown here can give you renewed hope and energy for the 
OSGeo community.


I encourage you to keep being you.

-jeff



On 2018-06-19 2:03 PM, Sara wrote:

Hello community,

Can someone point me at the relevant documentation re: retiring current 
membership status? Specifically, related to Charter membership.


I understand the processes to nominate & add new charter members but not 
clear on how current charter members can retire.


To put it another way: how to edit 
https://www.osgeo.org/about/charter-members/ 
?


Thanks,
Sara Safavi



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] How to retire membership status?

[Massimiliano Cannata]

Dear Sara,
I'm sorry for your decision and would like to ask you to reconsider it.
Often voice of few people is not necessarily the expression of the
community.
Nevertheless I fully respect you final decision.

Regards
Maxi

Il mar 19 giu 2018, 19:03 Sara  ha scritto:

> Hello community,
>
> Can someone point me at the relevant documentation re: retiring current
> membership status? Specifically, related to Charter membership.
>
> I understand the processes to nominate & add new charter members but not
> clear on how current charter members can retire.
>
> To put it another way: how to edit
> https://www.osgeo.org/about/charter-members/?
>
> Thanks,
> Sara Safavi
> ___
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[OSGeo-Discuss] How to retire membership status?

[Sara]

Hello community,

Can someone point me at the relevant documentation re: retiring current
membership status? Specifically, related to Charter membership.

I understand the processes to nominate & add new charter members but not
clear on how current charter members can retire.

To put it another way: how to edit https://www.osgeo.org/
about/charter-members/?

Thanks,
Sara Safavi
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