RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and ProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Thanks for the information Michael. I am downloading Opticks right now. :] I also found this Java library for JP2, thought I'm not sure how complete/up-to-date it is: http://jj2000.epfl.ch/ Maybe we need a JPEG 2000 page on the OSGeo wiki. Landon Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Considine, Michael Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 8:09 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and ProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] All, Opticks is an open source remote sensing application and development framework. We recently started the process to add JPEG 2000 support to our framework. We picked OpenJpeg to add JPEG 2000 support to our application. They are also open source. We currently support importing JPEG 2000 files but we are currently limited to the 4GB memory size after decoding. Our plan is to continue development and to upgrade to OpenJpeg 2.0 once they have a stable release. That will allow Opticks to use a pager to display and support much larger files. Michael Considine -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Bannerman Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 8:15 PM To: 'OSGeo Discussions' Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary Algorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] IMO: Just another thought on this issue (though we do seem to be recycling arguments over the years...): Assuming that I have a very large archive of spatial data, be it imagery or any other spatial format and that I store my data in a variety of proprietary formats: In ten years from now, can I be sure that: - the company that created, understands, and holds the IP in the data format will still be around? - there will still be software that runs on the then current operating environment, that can read and 'fully exploit' the data in the proprietary standard? - that this future software will work seamlessly with my then current spatial environment? - if all of the above risks prove to eventuate, can I be sure that I'll be able to salvage my data into another format, retaining its complete semantic context? IMO, it is a high risk proposition to lock public (or private) archives away in proprietary data formats. It makes more sense to use open standards and formats that are publically available. Bruce Bannerman -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Michael P. Gerlek Sent: Friday, 21 August 2009 6:55 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary Algorithms Some clarifications: - MrSID has both lossy and lossless modes - MrSID is not fractal based; it uses wavelets (and arithmetic encoding) - you can't copyright algorithms; the MrSID source code certainly is, however - MrSID relies on a number of patents, not all of which are owned by LizardTech - reading MrSID does not require any fees; we have libraries you can download, although they are not open source That said, some editorial comments (although I'm now wishing I hadn't been so quick to rise to Landon's bait :-) - Some of you know the history of trying to open source MrSID; I won't go into that here, except to say that LizardTech doesn't own all of the required IP needed to make that happen. - If we are speaking of the NAIP data, then no, it is not exclusively available in MrSID format; it is also shipped as GeoTIFFs. - JPEG 2000 is a very robust open standard alternative to MrSID, and a number of players already support it (including LizardTech), but not enough to make it viable for certain domains like NAIP. - some of you also know the history on open JP2 support: there is today no open source implementation of JP2 that is suitable for geo work. Alas. -mpg From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Eric Wolf Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 2:15 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary Algorithms The MRSID format is a very special case - and perhaps an opportunity for a new FOSS file format. MRSID is a lossless, fractal-based, multi-scale raster compression format. LizardTech has the algorithms to encode and decode MRSID locked up in copyrights, and I believe, patents. Even companies like ESRI shell out big bucks to LizardTech to be able to read and write the MRSID format. I guess I missed the context of the discussion. Is the government releasing certain data exclusively in this format? If so, I think the argument can be made against this practice. The different in compression between MRSID and gziped
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and ProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Well, according to this page: http://jpeg2000.epfl.ch/ v.5.1, courtesy in part Eastman Kodak, provides complete JP2 support at the decoding side - not sure whether that covers the tiling or other geo needs, but doesn't it sound worth investigating? Chris - Christopher Schmidt crschm...@crschmidt.net wrote: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 08:27:13AM -0700, Landon Blake wrote: Thanks for the information Michael. I am downloading Opticks right now. :] I also found this Java library for JP2, thought I'm not sure how complete/up-to-date it is: http://jj2000.epfl.ch/ Maybe we need a JPEG 2000 page on the OSGeo wiki. Note that JPEG 2000 support is different from JPEG 2000 support which works on geo-sized images. The tiling (or 'paging'? as Michael calls it) support that's supposed to be provided by OpenJPEG2000 has been coming 'real soon now' for about 18 months now from my uneducated observations, and until it's there, most tools using OpenJPEG for JP2s are going to suffering under much the same limitations. -- Chris Landon Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Considine, Michael Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 8:09 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and ProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] All, Opticks is an open source remote sensing application and development framework. We recently started the process to add JPEG 2000 support to our framework. We picked OpenJpeg to add JPEG 2000 support to our application. They are also open source. We currently support importing JPEG 2000 files but we are currently limited to the 4GB memory size after decoding. Our plan is to continue development and to upgrade to OpenJpeg 2.0 once they have a stable release. That will allow Opticks to use a pager to display and support much larger files. Michael Considine -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Bannerman Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 8:15 PM To: 'OSGeo Discussions' Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary Algorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] IMO: Just another thought on this issue (though we do seem to be recycling arguments over the years...): Assuming that I have a very large archive of spatial data, be it imagery or any other spatial format and that I store my data in a variety of proprietary formats: In ten years from now, can I be sure that: - the company that created, understands, and holds the IP in the data format will still be around? - there will still be software that runs on the then current operating environment, that can read and 'fully exploit' the data in the proprietary standard? - that this future software will work seamlessly with my then current spatial environment? - if all of the above risks prove to eventuate, can I be sure that I'll be able to salvage my data into another format, retaining its complete semantic context? IMO, it is a high risk proposition to lock public (or private) archives away in proprietary data formats. It makes more sense to use open standards and formats that are publically available. Bruce Bannerman -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Michael P. Gerlek Sent: Friday, 21 August 2009 6:55 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary Algorithms Some clarifications: - MrSID has both lossy and lossless modes - MrSID is not fractal based; it uses wavelets (and arithmetic encoding) - you can't copyright algorithms; the MrSID source code certainly is, however - MrSID relies on a number of patents, not all of which are owned by LizardTech - reading MrSID does not require any fees; we have libraries you can download, although they are not open source That said, some editorial comments (although I'm now wishing I hadn't been so quick to rise to Landon's bait :-) - Some of you know the history of trying to open source MrSID; I won't go into that here, except to say that LizardTech doesn't own all of the required IP needed to make that happen. - If we are speaking of the NAIP data, then no, it is not exclusively available in MrSID format; it is also shipped as GeoTIFFs. - JPEG 2000 is a very robust open standard alternative to MrSID, and a number of players already support it (including LizardTech), but not enough to make it viable for certain domains
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and ProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Tiling essentially means you can take a large file and compress pieces of it independently. This avoids having to deal with the large memory footprint issues, but it can also lead to seam-line artifacts under certain conditions. Ideally, one would prefer to have the option of compressing large images without resorting to using tiles. Note too that, in addition to the large image issue, many of the JP2 implementations out there are either not fully compliant or are not tuned for performance. A viable solution would need both of these. -mpg -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Chris Puttick Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:37 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and ProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] Well, according to this page: http://jpeg2000.epfl.ch/ v.5.1, courtesy in part Eastman Kodak, provides complete JP2 support at the decoding side - not sure whether that covers the tiling or other geo needs, but doesn't it sound worth investigating? Chris - Christopher Schmidt crschm...@crschmidt.net wrote: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 08:27:13AM -0700, Landon Blake wrote: Thanks for the information Michael. I am downloading Opticks right now. :] I also found this Java library for JP2, thought I'm not sure how complete/up-to-date it is: http://jj2000.epfl.ch/ Maybe we need a JPEG 2000 page on the OSGeo wiki. Note that JPEG 2000 support is different from JPEG 2000 support which works on geo-sized images. The tiling (or 'paging'? as Michael calls it) support that's supposed to be provided by OpenJPEG2000 has been coming 'real soon now' for about 18 months now from my uneducated observations, and until it's there, most tools using OpenJPEG for JP2s are going to suffering under much the same limitations. -- Chris Landon Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268 Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658 -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Considine, Michael Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 8:09 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and ProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] All, Opticks is an open source remote sensing application and development framework. We recently started the process to add JPEG 2000 support to our framework. We picked OpenJpeg to add JPEG 2000 support to our application. They are also open source. We currently support importing JPEG 2000 files but we are currently limited to the 4GB memory size after decoding. Our plan is to continue development and to upgrade to OpenJpeg 2.0 once they have a stable release. That will allow Opticks to use a pager to display and support much larger files. Michael Considine -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Bannerman Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 8:15 PM To: 'OSGeo Discussions' Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary Algorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] IMO: Just another thought on this issue (though we do seem to be recycling arguments over the years...): Assuming that I have a very large archive of spatial data, be it imagery or any other spatial format and that I store my data in a variety of proprietary formats: In ten years from now, can I be sure that: - the company that created, understands, and holds the IP in the data format will still be around? - there will still be software that runs on the then current operating environment, that can read and 'fully exploit' the data in the proprietary standard? - that this future software will work seamlessly with my then current spatial environment? - if all of the above risks prove to eventuate, can I be sure that I'll be able to salvage my data into another format, retaining its complete semantic context? IMO, it is a high risk proposition to lock public (or private) archives away in proprietary data formats. It makes more sense to use open standards and formats that are publically available. Bruce Bannerman -Original Message- From: discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Michael P. Gerlek Sent: Friday, 21 August 2009 6:55 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary Algorithms Some clarifications: - MrSID has both lossy and lossless modes - MrSID is not fractal based; it uses wavelets (and arithmetic encoding) - you can't copyright algorithms; the MrSID source code certainly is, however - MrSID relies on a number of patents, not all
