Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] defining a Geospatial Integration Showcase to be launched at FOSS4G 2009
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 5:24 AM, Bob Basques [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Data is indeed where it all starts. There is a very good demo dataset included with the GeoMoose package, it's aimed primarily at a state (of Minnesota) perspective currently. There are also some municipal datasets in there as well. The interface (GeoMoose) actually scales very well between these types of business needs even in combining the two into a single interface. There is another dataset, the OSGeo education data set: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Edu_Data_Package_North_Carolina It contains all kind of data/maps in original formats and preprocessed, covering a wide range of potential applications. The Geospatial Integration Showcase should make use of OSGeo data sets (so, perhaps we can get in more data sets through the showcase preparations!). Markus ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] defining a Geospatial Integration Showcase to be launched at FOSS4G 2009
Markus Neteler wrote: ... There is another dataset, the OSGeo education data set: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Edu_Data_Package_North_Carolina It contains all kind of data/maps in original formats and preprocessed, covering a wide range of potential applications. The Geospatial Integration Showcase should make use of OSGeo data sets (so, perhaps we can get in more data sets through the showcase preparations!). Markus, you also mentioned about some South African Data becoming available after the discussion at the Edu-BOF in Cape Town. It may be work have some showcase presentation with SA data also, as one of the fruits of the FOSS4G2008 ripe and ready to eat at FOSS4G2009. Venka ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] defining a Geospatial Integration Showcase to be launched at FOSS4G 2009
If we find a data custodian who is keen to get their data into the Integration Showcase, what sort of criteria should we be specifying for that dataset? What license? How should it be made available? Via an external WMS, or as a data download or ... Do we expect styling information to be provided too? Markus Neteler wrote: On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 5:24 AM, Bob Basques [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Data is indeed where it all starts. There is a very good demo dataset included with the GeoMoose package, it's aimed primarily at a state (of Minnesota) perspective currently. There are also some municipal datasets in there as well. The interface (GeoMoose) actually scales very well between these types of business needs even in combining the two into a single interface. There is another dataset, the OSGeo education data set: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Edu_Data_Package_North_Carolina It contains all kind of data/maps in original formats and preprocessed, covering a wide range of potential applications. The Geospatial Integration Showcase should make use of OSGeo data sets (so, perhaps we can get in more data sets through the showcase preparations!). Markus ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source http://www.lisasoft.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] defining a Geospatial Integration Showcase to be launched at FOSS4G 2009
Cameron Shorter wrote: If we find a data custodian who is keen to get their data into the Integration Showcase, what sort of criteria should we be specifying for that dataset? What license? Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Same as OpenStreetMap How should it be made available? Via an external WMS, or as a data download or ... WMS, WFS. We need the Service more than data download. Do we expect styling information to be provided too? yes. My personal opinion, off course. Venka ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] defining a Geospatial Integration Showcase to be launched at FOSS4G 2009
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 08:21:03PM +0900, Venkatesh Raghavan wrote: Cameron Shorter wrote: If we find a data custodian who is keen to get their data into the Integration Showcase, what sort of criteria should we be specifying for that dataset? What license? Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Same as OpenStreetMap Please do not encourage new data releasers to release geodata under creative commons licenses. It has ben a source of major disagreements with regard to openstreetmap, and I don't think it's any better for anyone else. Geodata is not creative. Creative Commons licenses are written for creative works. Even the Creative Commons people I've talked to don't think geodata should be covered under anything other than 'CC Zero'. http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=262 sums this up quite well: if you haven't read it, *Please do* before advising anyone who has not already released data on license issues. Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] defining a Geospatial Integration Showcase to be launched at FOSS4G 2009
On 2008/10/22 3:58 PM, Jody Garnett wrote: Cameron Shorter wrote: The OGC, a likely supporter, will be talking with our FOSS4G organising committee early next week, and I'd like to table ideas from you, the OSGeo community, to the meeting. Data is where it starts; do you have data? Data is certainly needed, but the 'most important thing' is to make it happen. For FOSS4G 2007, we had lots of data, loaded onto a server, but the Integration Showcase didn't take place. For 2009, I'd suggest only two sets of data are needed: - Australian/New Zealand data, so that 'local' participants can see 'local data', and so as to draw 'local' data custodians into participation in FOSS4G 2009 - OSGeo datasets, because they are widely available, and may already be used as example datasets in training materials, etc. Having other datasets, and/or services, might be nice, but could always be dealt with 'later on', if there is time 'right before the conference'. Also, if the Integration Showcase is 'up and running', then it provides the opportunity for people to create Workshops that show people how to take 'their data' and use it in a similar fashion. People can take the Workshop, get some knowledge, and then see in the Integration Showcase real live examples, and hopefully will be able to understand how they can apply the knowledge to 'their own' data sources. If the above is to be able to be done, then it suggests that the technologies used by the Integration Showcase should all be covered by Workshops and/or Presentations, so that people can both see the Integration Showcase, and also have the opportunities to learn about 'how it all fits together'. Those opportunities should probably include both 'beginner level' as well as some 'pushing the envelope advanced stuff'. -- Dave Patton CIS Canadian Information Systems Victoria, B.C. Degree Confluence Project: Canadian Coordinator Technical Coordinator http://www.confluence.org/ OSGeo FOSS4G 2009 conference: Conference Committee member http://2009.foss4g.org/ Personal website: Maps, GPS, etc. http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] defining a Geospatial Integration Showcase to be launched at FOSS4G 2009
Chris, and the geodata list, Your comments are valid. Does OSGeo have an official stance on data licencing? If not, I think we should. Currently, the Australian government is moving licencing the majority of their data (including geospatial) under Creative Commons. The responses I've heard from Australian government about Zero Commons is that the license is still in draft, and that a government will need the license to move out of draft before a government can recommend government agencies use it. I assume this is the license being referred: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CCZero Christopher Schmidt wrote: On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 08:21:03PM +0900, Venkatesh Raghavan wrote: Cameron Shorter wrote: If we find a data custodian who is keen to get their data into the Integration Showcase, what sort of criteria should we be specifying for that dataset? What license? Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Same as OpenStreetMap Please do not encourage new data releasers to release geodata under creative commons licenses. It has ben a source of major disagreements with regard to openstreetmap, and I don't think it's any better for anyone else. Geodata is not creative. Creative Commons licenses are written for creative works. Even the Creative Commons people I've talked to don't think geodata should be covered under anything other than 'CC Zero'. http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=262 sums this up quite well: if you haven't read it, *Please do* before advising anyone who has not already released data on license issues. Regards, -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source http://www.lisasoft.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] defining a Geospatial Integration Showcase to be launched at FOSS4G 2009
Chris's comments are very valid and very important. I speak from the position of having been involved in the entire process that gave rise to the CC0 protocol. Every jurisdiction has its own laws. Here in the US, databases, for the most part, cannot be copyrighted. Creative Commons License is literally a *License* for *Creative* works, and entails legal obligations on the part of the entity accepting the license. The CC0 protocol is *not* a license. It is not legally binding. It is a *protocol*, a suggested way of doing things. What is says is, in effect, that scientific data (assuming that geodata are scientific) are meant for the good of all, and they can't be copyrighted, and so, should be shared with all without any legal expectation for attribution but definitely having a customary expectation for attribution. And, yes, CC0 is also a work in progress. Any entity that is not comfortable with CC0, not only with the fact that it is not a license but also possibly not comfortable with the expectations it lays down, should really pursue its own license. Of course, that would not be good for the uptake of CC0. It would be nice for the entire world to adopt and promote CC0 or something like it. Stuff other than data, such as software, documentation or education material, can be happily licensed under Creative Commons. On 10/23/08, Cameron Shorter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, and the geodata list, Your comments are valid. Does OSGeo have an official stance on data licencing? If not, I think we should. Currently, the Australian government is moving licencing the majority of their data (including geospatial) under Creative Commons. The responses I've heard from Australian government about Zero Commons is that the license is still in draft, and that a government will need the license to move out of draft before a government can recommend government agencies use it. I assume this is the license being referred: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CCZero Christopher Schmidt wrote: On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 08:21:03PM +0900, Venkatesh Raghavan wrote: Cameron Shorter wrote: If we find a data custodian who is keen to get their data into the Integration Showcase, what sort of criteria should we be specifying for that dataset? What license? Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Same as OpenStreetMap Please do not encourage new data releasers to release geodata under creative commons licenses. It has ben a source of major disagreements with regard to openstreetmap, and I don't think it's any better for anyone else. Geodata is not creative. Creative Commons licenses are written for creative works. Even the Creative Commons people I've talked to don't think geodata should be covered under anything other than 'CC Zero'. http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=262 sums this up quite well: if you haven't read it, *Please do* before advising anyone who has not already released data on license issues. Regards, -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source http://www.lisasoft.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Puneet Kishor http://punkish.eidesis.org/ Nelson Institute for Environmental Studies http://www.nelson.wisc.edu/ Open Source Geospatial Foundation (OSGeo) http://www.osgeo.org/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] defining a Geospatial Integration Showcase to be launched at FOSS4G 2009
On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 06:22:50AM +1100, Cameron Shorter wrote: Chris, and the geodata list, Your comments are valid. Does OSGeo have an official stance on data licencing? If not, I think we should. Currently, the Australian government is moving licencing the majority of their data (including geospatial) under Creative Commons. I've been waiting for the Open Database License to move forward, since at the moment, I see no licenses that make sense to license new geodata under. OSGeo/Geodata committe has not expressed an opinion at this time. The responses I've heard from Australian government about Zero Commons is that the license is still in draft, and that a government will need the license to move out of draft before a government can recommend government agencies use it. If the reason they're concerned is the CC0 license isn't actually 'done', would they really be willing to release their data with no legal restrictions? If so, then the Public Domain Dedication (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/) seems sufficient, simple, and not to offer any more or less legal protection than CCZero seems intended to. My expectation is that neither CCZero nor Public Domain dedications are sufficient for most organizations, who would rather maintain Attribution and Share Alike requirements (sometimes just the former). For those cases, the Open Database License (http://www.opencontentlawyer.com/open-data/open-database-licence/) is probably what most people want, but it also is incomplete: Jordan (who was the primary lawyer behind the license) has not done any work on it in a long time, and I don't see any evidence that it will ever be completed at this point, which is a shame, since I've been pinning my hopes and dreams for licensing on it for more than a year. In any case, in the US, CC-By-SA has no practical meaning for factual information, so any organization which actually seeks to protect their databases of information via copyright (rather than just make them available regardless of the things that will be done with them) should be made aware that at least in some jurisdictions, the lack of creativity (depending, of course, on the type of data) means that their data can't be protected that way. (In other countries, database effects kick in, and may have a different interaction with the CC licenses: in the US, even collections of pure facts are not protected.) Encouraging users to 'protect' their data with CC this way is a mistake -- and if they don't actually care, then encouraging Public Domain dedications of data seems like the right way to go. I assume this is the license being referred: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CCZero ddi Christopher Schmidt wrote: On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 08:21:03PM +0900, Venkatesh Raghavan wrote: Cameron Shorter wrote: If we find a data custodian who is keen to get their data into the Integration Showcase, what sort of criteria should we be specifying for that dataset? What license? Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Same as OpenStreetMap Please do not encourage new data releasers to release geodata under creative commons licenses. It has ben a source of major disagreements with regard to openstreetmap, and I don't think it's any better for anyone else. Geodata is not creative. Creative Commons licenses are written for creative works. Even the Creative Commons people I've talked to don't think geodata should be covered under anything other than 'CC Zero'. http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=262 sums this up quite well: if you haven't read it, *Please do* before advising anyone who has not already released data on license issues. Regards, -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source http://www.lisasoft.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] defining a Geospatial Integration Showcase to be launched at FOSS4G 2009
Please do not encourage new data releasers to release geodata under creative commons licenses. It has ben a source of major disagreements with regard to openstreetmap, and I don't think it's any better for anyone else. Geodata is not creative. Creative Commons licenses are written for creative works. Even the Creative Commons people I've talked to don't think geodata should be covered under anything other than 'CC Zero'. http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=262 sums this up quite well: if you haven't read it, *Please do* before advising anyone who has not already released data on license issues. Creative commons licences rest upon copyright law. If a legal juridstiction determines that copyright is not applicable to geodata, then both copyright and the creative commons license go away. nick *** WARNING: This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain legally privileged, confidential or private information and may be protected by copyright. You may only use it if you are the person(s) it was intended to be sent to and if you use it in an authorised way. No one is allowed to use, review, alter, transmit, disclose, distribute, print or copy this e-mail without appropriate authority. If this e-mail was not intended for you and was sent to you by mistake, please telephone or e-mail me immediately, destroy any hardcopies of this e-mail and delete it and any copies of it from your computer system. Any right which the sender may have under copyright law, and any legal privilege and confidentiality attached to this e-mail is not waived or destroyed by that mistake. It is your responsibility to ensure that this e-mail does not contain and is not affected by computer viruses, defects or interference by third parties or replication problems (including incompatibility with your computer system). Opinions contained in this e-mail do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Department of Main Roads, Queensland Transport or Maritime Safety Queensland, or endorsed organisations utilising the same infrastructure. *** ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] defining a Geospatial Integration Showcase to be launched at FOSS4G 2009
On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 10:22:59AM +1000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please do not encourage new data releasers to release geodata under creative commons licenses. It has ben a source of major disagreements with regard to openstreetmap, and I don't think it's any better for anyone else. Geodata is not creative. Creative Commons licenses are written for creative works. Even the Creative Commons people I've talked to don't think geodata should be covered under anything other than 'CC Zero'. http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=262 sums this up quite well: if you haven't read it, *Please do* before advising anyone who has not already released data on license issues. Creative commons licences rest upon copyright law. If a legal juridstiction determines that copyright is not applicable to geodata, then both copyright and the creative commons license go away. But contract law doesn't. The Open Database License rests in part on Contract Law, Database Protections, etc. Copyright law isn't all there is. Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] defining a Geospatial Integration Showcase to be launched at FOSS4G 2009
On Fri, 2008-10-24 at 10:22 +1000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please do not encourage new data releasers to release geodata under creative commons licenses. It has ben a source of major disagreements with regard to openstreetmap, and I don't think it's any better for anyone else. Geodata is not creative. Creative Commons licenses are written for creative works. Even the Creative Commons people I've talked to don't think geodata should be covered under anything other than 'CC Zero'. http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=262 sums this up quite well: if you haven't read it, *Please do* before advising anyone who has not already released data on license issues. Creative commons licences rest upon copyright law. If a legal juridstiction determines that copyright is not applicable to geodata, then both copyright and the creative commons license go away. nick Presumably the original work was published under a cc license where it was considered copyrightable, and obviously not placed in the public domain. In a jurisdiction where that copyright isn't recognised, does that mean there is no legal right to acquire the work (as the license it is published under can't be honoured due to it not being legally enforceable or recognised) or is the work considered to automatically be in the public domain (at least in that jurisdiction) as a straight collection of facts? With either answer, the outcome sought by using cc is not achieved hence the problems with using CC. Another twist is that in AU (and probably other commonwealth jurisdictions at least) while facts can't be copyrighted but the representation or presentation of facts can be, at least to a limited extent (or such is my very limited understanding). Regards, Tim Bowden -- Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] defining a Geospatial Integration Showcase to be launched at FOSS4G 2009
Re Data: I'm expecting to get data. In fact, we might have more than we can handle. I've talked with some Australian and New Zealand government data custodians and all of them have been excited about getting their data on line. From the data custodians point of view, FOSS4G is a great opportunity to publicise their datasets, and get a bucket load of geeks tweaking open source applications to work with their data. Jody Garnett wrote: Cameron Shorter wrote: The OGC, a likely supporter, will be talking with our FOSS4G organising committee early next week, and I'd like to table ideas from you, the OSGeo community, to the meeting. So please speak up: * Is it acceptable for standards compliant Proprietary products to be part of the Showcase? (This should increase FOSS4G sponsorship) I am still waiting to hear back from FOSS4G2008 - how did having proprietary vendors around effect things? Were they even noticed? What kind of comparisons were being made etc? As a user of all of these technologies it would be very amusing to have the same data sets being pumped out; witness the recent blogs posts on MapServer and GeoServer performance for an example of this being of general interest. * Is it appropriate to set a theme or scenario for the showcase, then encourage FOSS4G presentations and labs to use this theme? I am not too sure about that; presentations and labs are often very specific to the topic at hand. Why not try a carrot; promises that a specific data set (WFS, WMS, TileServer, PostGIS whatever) will be available for workshops to use; make sure it is around 3-6 months prior to the event and you should see it used. * Should the showcase reference external services or should they all be internal? (WMS, WFS, etc) Both end up happening; with suitable amusement if external web services are down (or bandwidth is an issue). * What level of service should we expect from participating packages? * Will projects step up and contribute to the showcase? Data is where it starts; do you have data? * An integration testbed was trialled at FOSS4G 2007 in Victoria with reportedly limited success. What lessons should we learn from that? Get data; and get it out early; try and arrange some kind of reward for projects that make use of the data? Participation in a panel discussion during the conference talking about applied interoptibility Jody ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Cameron Shorter Geospatial Systems Architect Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050 Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254 Think Globally, Fix Locally Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source http://www.lisasoft.com ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
