Re: [slim] Comically Fumbled Squeezebox Replacement Thread - Would you be interested?
cliveb wrote: Two possibilities: 1. Because you expect it to. 2. Because the DAC in question has unacceptable sensitivity to different transports. (My money is strongly on #1) Lol ok take a listen for yourself then . Demo a Aries and let me know what you find . jimmypowder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=61215 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103054 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Comically Fumbled Squeezebox Replacement Thread - Would you be interested?
jimmypowder wrote: Lol ok take a listen for yourself then . Demo a Aries and let me know what you find . By the way I have used multiple dacs and I hear differences jimmypowder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=61215 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103054 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Comically Fumbled Squeezebox Replacement Thread - Would you be interested?
jimmypowder wrote: Then why is it that the Transporter's digital out to the same dac sounds clearer then the SB Touch fed into the same dac? Two possibilities: 1. Because you expect it to. 2. Because the DAC in question has unacceptable sensitivity to different transports. (My money is strongly on #1) Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103054 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Comically Fumbled Squeezebox Replacement Thread - Would you be interested?
Heh, it's good to see the audiophile arguments lumbering on, and on, and on... ;) It's like I've never been away. :D R. Net-UDAP is free software - you do not have to pay for it. However, if you found it useful, please consider donating: https://projects.robinbowes.com/Net-UDAP/trac#Donations robinbowes's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=480 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103054 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Running Multiple Instances of Squeezebox - help
Cable it all on one network. If the server is too far from the router use home plug with 2 Ethernet ports at the server end - one for the server and one for the Transorter. What you currently have is never going to work optimally. *Vortexbox LMS 7.8 music on QNAP TS419p via NFS* - iThingys/iPeng/Tablets *Living Room* - SB3 - Onkyo TS606 connected Digitally - Celestion Ditton F20s - and connected Analogue for Zone 2 - Sony TA FE 320 - Sennheiser RS 130 *Office* - SB3 - Sony TA FE320 - Wharfedale Modus Cubes *Dining Room* - SB Boom *Kitchen* - UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio) *Bedroom (Bedside)* - SB Touch - Topping TP21 - AKG Headphones *Bedroom (TV)* - Amazon Fire TV (SB Player) - Topping TP20 - Wharfedale Modus Cubes d6jg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=44051 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103149 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Comically Fumbled Squeezebox Replacement Thread - Would you be interested?
robinbowes wrote: Heh, it's good to see the audiophile arguments lumbering on, and on, and on... ;) It's like I've never been away. :D R. Some off us left the cult in the meantime :D All these differences go away once you do proper tests like ABX . Any reasonably good transport is completely transparent to a human listener . And in most cases the output from the dac is electrically identical so there teally is no difference at all . Yes the most likly cause for these differences is sigthed listening test with some learned audiophile bias . With the small differences in question 100dB down in the noise or nonexisting . All sigthed testing are just anectotes and contain no real information . If one subjectively experience very large differences something is ver wrong either one is heavily biased or the equipment is broken. What kind of dac are we talking about ? There are a lot of high end stuff that performs no better than a chinese dvd player for 50$ so price really has nothing to do with it . If th e equipment in question is audiophile enough it can be broken by design :/ nos dac anyone ? Btw is this tread dead now ? Due to natural causes ? Its complete off topic . Anyone actually designing a squeezebox/dac thingy may post i diy instead . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103054 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Mysqueezebox.com account coming back invalid
Hi Guy's been a while since I have been here, good to be back. I did a fresh install of Freenas 7.4 with Slimnas 2.0.2 and LMS 7.80 on the weekend. I have verified my mysqueezebox account by logging in manually. However I get back an invalid account when i try enter my credentials from within LMS 7.80? Any idea's? Am I forgetting something? I verified the DNS BTW. Cheers, and Thanks 2 Chan. System SB3-Benchmark DAC-1- Bryston(BP-25,3B)-PMC TB2 Home Theater System SB2- Bryston(SP1,4B,4B,2B,2B)- PSB Stratus Goldi Basement System SB2- Parasound Preamp (carver M1.0t) -Klipsch La Scala's Bedroom System SB2- Sony BoomBox Rear Deck/Patio Duet- Yamaha Reciever- PSB Mini's, sfraser's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2026 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103163 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Comically Fumbled Squeezebox Replacement Thread - Would you be interested?
jimmypowder wrote: LOL. Please. The Touch or Transporter using coax fed into the same dac doesn't sound as good as the Auralic Aries.Not even close. Not expectation bias .*I know grain when I hear it*.Maybe its the linear power supply or something else but the resolution of the same songs is much better with the Aries. Then why is it that the Transporter's digital out to the same dac sounds clearer then the SB Touch fed into the same dac? What is grain?? jfo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1135 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103054 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Comically Fumbled Squeezebox Replacement Thread - Would you be interested?
I've never heard grain in sound. I can hear different levels of compression pretty well. I think equipment has to be level matched before you make any worthwhile comparisons. I also heard that implementation of asynchronous usb and other digital outputs was crucial to performance. Perhaps these could be the reasons for difference in sound? Corelli45's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=55246 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103054 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Comically Fumbled Squeezebox Replacement Thread - Would you be interested?
jfo wrote: What is grain?? What I mean is resolution . jimmypowder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=61215 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103054 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Comically Fumbled Squeezebox Replacement Thread - Would you be interested?
jfo wrote: What is grain?? Good question, I thought of asking that myself. How can something sound grainy :confused: kidstypike 1 x SB3 - 1 x Boom - 1 x (Squeezebox) Radio - 2 x Touch - 2 x piCorePlayer kidstypike's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10436 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103054 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Comically Fumbled Squeezebox Replacement Thread - Would you be interested?
Mnyb wrote: Some off us left the cult in the meantime :D All these differences go away once you do proper tests like ABX . Any reasonably good transport is completely transparent to a human listener . And in most cases the output from the dac is electrically identical so there teally is no difference at all . Yes the most likly cause for these differences is sigthed listening test with some learned audiophile bias . With the small differences in question 100dB down in the noise or nonexisting . All sigthed testing are just anectotes and contain no real information . If one subjectively experience very large differences something is ver wrong either one is heavily biased or the equipment is broken. What kind of dac are we talking about ? There are a lot of high end stuff that performs no better than a chinese dvd player for 50$ so price really has nothing to do with it . If th e equipment in question is audiophile enough it can be broken by design :/ nos dac anyone ? Btw is this tread dead now ? Due to natural causes ? Its complete off topic . Anyone actually designing a squeezebox/dac thingy may post i diy instead . I got the jitterbug ! Its a bad case ,lol .I knew I should have taken a jitterbug shot this winter season. Bits are bits! Jitter gonna hurt my bits. Maybe the Aries is more immune to the jitterbug. Femto clockers working 24/7! Better then jitterbug shots. Oh where is Phil Leigh ? It's too bad he's not here to cure my jitterbug! jimmypowder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=61215 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103054 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Mysqueezebox.com account coming back invalid
Ahemmay have found the issue. While my DNS entries were there and correct , I noticed my default gateway entry has went adrift... I have re-entered it , but can't reboot the box for it to take effect until the rest of my music library has finished copying over. silly me. 2 CHAN. SYSTEM SB3-Benchmark DAC-1- Bryston(BP-25,3B)-PMC TB2 HOME THEATER SYSTEM SB2- Bryston(SP1,4B,4B,2B,2B)- PSB Stratus Goldi BASEMENT SYSTEM Duet- Parasound Preamp (carver M1.0t) -Klipsch La Scala's BEDROOM SYSTEM SB2- Sony BoomBox REAR DECK/PATIO Duet- Yamaha Reciever- PSB Mini's, OFFICE Squeezebox Boom KITCHEN Squeeze Radio ENSUITE Squeeze Radio sfraser's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2026 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103163 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] The overall success of rolling out Audio Factory is huge -
Man in a van wrote: It's Numpty speak. BBC management NVQ Level 3 Unbelievable. The emperor's new clothes? Touch - Muse M50 EX TPA3123 T-Amp Mini - Acoustics Q10 speakers Logitech Radio Logitech UE Smart Radio Raspberry Pi + Squeezeplug LMS + Squeezelite - Logitech Mini Boombox speaker (mothballed) Cubieboard + Debian 7 + LMS 7.8.1 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100 bluetooth speaker O2 Joggler + SqpOS + Aune X2 T-amp + Mordaunt Short ms-3.40 speakers IBOX + Debian 7 + LMS 7.8.1 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100 bluetooth speaker Squeeze2upnp - Sonos Play1 Vistron internet radio (Reciva) castalla's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15624 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103165 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[slim] The overall success of rolling out Audio Factory is huge -
Discuss, (or not) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-31487515 Ronnie Man in a van's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43627 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103165 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] The overall success of rolling out Audio Factory is huge -
castalla wrote: We are dealing with a relatively small number of people (affected by the changes) but for them it is the only way they can access a high quality stream at home, said Roux Joubert, general manager of platforms in the BBC's Future Media division. The overall success of rolling out Audio Factory is huge - the vast majority of people consuming new radio feeds are very happy with it. How do they know this? It's Numpty speak. BBC management NVQ Level 3 Man in a van's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43627 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103165 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] The overall success of rolling out Audio Factory is huge -
Man in a van wrote: Discuss, (or not) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-31487515 Ronnie We are dealing with a relatively small number of people (affected by the changes) but for them it is the only way they can access a high quality stream at home, said Roux Joubert, general manager of platforms in the BBC's Future Media division. The overall success of rolling out Audio Factory is huge - the vast majority of people consuming new radio feeds are very happy with it. How do they know this? Touch - Muse M50 EX TPA3123 T-Amp Mini - Acoustics Q10 speakers Logitech Radio Logitech UE Smart Radio Raspberry Pi + Squeezeplug LMS + Squeezelite - Logitech Mini Boombox speaker (mothballed) Cubieboard + Debian 7 + LMS 7.8.1 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100 bluetooth speaker O2 Joggler + SqpOS + Aune X2 T-amp + Mordaunt Short ms-3.40 speakers IBOX + Debian 7 + LMS 7.8.1 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100 bluetooth speaker Squeeze2upnp - Sonos Play1 Vistron internet radio (Reciva) castalla's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15624 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103165 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] The overall success of rolling out Audio Factory is huge -
Every cloud has a silver lining. Whilst I was originally pretty irate at the streams being broken, I'm now glad the change happened but not overly happy with the way it happened. Even listening to 6 music the improvement in quality is pretty amazing, it's like discovering radio all over again. Richard Richie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=88 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103165 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Tidal Hi-Resolution Streams available on ickStream, soon for all Squeezebox users!
Squeezemenicely wrote: Sorry for crashing this thread. But I simply cannot get rad.io to play any music. I am using the updated plugin, but no sound. Rad.io (now Radio.net in ickStream) should now work again through the ickStream plugin. --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 8, the Universal App for iOS 7 and iOS 8* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=102381 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Skip mySqueezebox.com login on android logitech app
Try the Squeeze Ctrl app, it's great https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.angrygoat.android.squeezectrl asplundj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=53571 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103024 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] BBC iPlayer no longer supported
The BBC acknowledges that it has cut streaming service before it has a new standard in place: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b051w4dm I'm using BBC iPlayer v1.2.14, with the streaming options (like on-demand options) set to: AAC FlashAAC FlashMP3 WMA, but I'm still getting the BBC's looping announcement. I've tried saving the BBC3 stream as a favorite and editing it to remove the WMA component of the link, as an earlier post suggested, but this breaks the stream. nitram's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=63775 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103084 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] BBC iPlayer no longer supported
nitram wrote: The BBC acknowledges that it has cut streaming service before it has a new standard in place: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b051w4dm I'm using BBC iPlayer v1.2.14, with the streaming options (like on-demand options) set to: AAC FlashAAC FlashMP3 WMA, but I'm still getting the BBC's looping announcement. I've tried saving the BBC3 stream as a favorite and editing it to remove the WMA component of the link, as an earlier post suggested, but this breaks the stream. Wakey - wakey Look for the new thread! Touch - Muse M50 EX TPA3123 T-Amp Mini - Acoustics Q10 speakers Logitech Radio Logitech UE Smart Radio Raspberry Pi + Squeezeplug LMS + Squeezelite - Logitech Mini Boombox speaker (mothballed) Cubieboard + Debian 7 + LMS 7.8.1 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100 bluetooth speaker O2 Joggler + SqpOS + Aune X2 T-amp + Mordaunt Short ms-3.40 speakers IBOX + Debian 7 + LMS 7.8.1 + Squeezelite - Soundwave SW100 bluetooth speaker Squeeze2upnp - Sonos Play1 Vistron internet radio (Reciva) castalla's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15624 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103084 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Mysqueezebox.com account coming back invalid
Ahemmay have found the issue. While my DNS entries were there and correct , I noticed my default gateway entry has went adrift... I have re-entered it , but can't reboot the box for it to take effect until the rest of my music library has finished copying over. silly me. 2 CHAN. SYSTEM SB3-Benchmark DAC-1- Bryston(BP-25,3B)-PMC TB2 HOME THEATER SYSTEM SB2- Bryston(SP1,4B,4B,2B,2B)- PSB Stratus Goldi BASEMENT SYSTEM Duet- Parasound Preamp (carver M1.0t) -Klipsch La Scala's BEDROOM SYSTEM SB2- Sony BoomBox REAR DECK/PATIO Duet- Yamaha Reciever- PSB Mini's, OFFICE Squeezebox Boom KITCHEN Squeeze Radio ENSUITE Squeeze Radio sfraser's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2026 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103163 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Comically Fumbled Squeezebox Replacement Thread - Would you be interested?
cliveb wrote: So what you are saying is that you have a DAC which sounds markedly different when fed from different transports. Given that the issue of DAC vulnerability to transport variance was solved at least a decade ago, the only sensible conclusion is that your DAC is broken in this respect. (Or, if you don't want to countenance that possibility, the other explanation is that there is actually no difference and you are experiencing something that affects us all: expectation bias). LOL. Please. The Touch or Transporter using coax fed into the same dac doesn't sound as good as the Auralic Aries.Not even close. Not expectation bias .I know grain when I hear it. jimmypowder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=61215 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103054 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Running Multiple Instances of Squeezebox - help
d6jg wrote: Cable it all on one network. If the server is too far from the router use home plug with 2 Ethernet ports at the server end - one for the server and one for the Transorter. What you currently have is never going to work optimally. Nicely summed , homeplugs for the transporter but why not simply move the server to the router ? Maybe its doing some more stuff Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103149 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Comically Fumbled Squeezebox Replacement Thread - Would you be interested?
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/measurements-logitech-squeezebox-touch.html?m=1 Why not just keep that trusty SB 3 then ? Or the cheapest transport you could find ? jimmypowder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=61215 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103054 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Comically Fumbled Squeezebox Replacement Thread - Would you be interested?
jimmypowder wrote: All I can tell you is the Auralic is far superior in audio quality feeding the same dac then either a Transporter or Touch . You can say Bits are bits but the difference is significant . The Touch is very grainy compared to the Aries . So what you are saying is that you have a DAC which sounds markedly different when fed from different transports. Given that the issue of DAC vulnerability to transport variance was solved at least a decade ago, the only sensible conclusion is that your DAC is broken in this respect. (Or, if you don't want to countenance that possibility, the other explanation is that there is actually no difference and you are experiencing something that affects us all: expectation bias). Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103054 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Comically Fumbled Squeezebox Replacement Thread - Would you be interested?
As I said, I've never heard a Transporter but I certainly prefer the Vortexbox over the Touch. Interesting to hear your opinions and all the more frustrating that Logitech pulled the plug. Corelli45's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=55246 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103054 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Comically Fumbled Squeezebox Replacement Thread - Would you be interested?
jimmypowder wrote: Anyone wanna buy a Silver Slim Devices Transporter ,I have one in excellent condition . Let me know . I'll bite... How much? Jason doctor_big's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15196 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103054 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
