Re: [slim] Re: "EMPTY" when browsing
Vidur Apparao wrote: ... Dan asks this because we've identified an issue related to Daylight Savings on Windows. It turns out that Windows reports a different file modification date after the automatic change for Daylight Savings (see http://www.codeproject.com/datetime/dstbugs.asp for more information). This makes us think that the file has changed. A bug in 6.0.0 (fixed in the latest nightlies) deletes the file from the database rather than re-reading tags. If you are seeing this bug, updating to the latest 6.0.1 nightly (http://www.slimdevices.com/downloads/nightly/latest/6.0.1/) will fix it. I forgot to mention - you will have to hit Rescan (under Server Settings) to see the missing tracks again. --Vidur ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: "EMPTY" when browsing
On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Vidur Apparao wrote: Nearly all my album tracks are unavailable... when I do Browse music>Browse Artists>some artist>some album> all I see is EMPTY (Same thing with Browse Albums) Dan asks this because we've identified an issue related to Daylight Savings on Windows. It turns out that Windows reports a different file modification date after the automatic change for Daylight Savings (see http://www.codeproject.com/datetime/dstbugs.asp for more information). This makes us think that the file has changed. A bug in 6.0.0 (fixed in the latest nightlies) deletes the file from the database rather than re-reading tags. If you are seeing this bug, updating to the latest 6.0.1 nightly (http://www.slimdevices.com/downloads/nightly/latest/6.0.1/) will fix it. Is this related to Bug 1239, which is currently irritating me? (The symptoms seem similar, but 1239 sure looks like a charset issue.) -- Mike Kozlowski http://www.klio.org/mlk/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Re: "EMPTY" when browsing
Dan Sully wrote: * Phillip Kerman shaped the electrons to say... Nearly all my album tracks are unavailable... when I do Browse music>Browse Artists>some artist>some album> all I see is EMPTY (Same thing with Browse Albums) I had to give up my old way of accessing files (Browse Music Folder) because v6.0.0 has serious performance issues with this feature (I'd prefer to just browse folder). But maybe because I never really used browse music/browse artist (or browse alums) I'm using them wrong. Is everyone that's having this problem on Windows and in a Daylight Savings timezone? Dan asks this because we've identified an issue related to Daylight Savings on Windows. It turns out that Windows reports a different file modification date after the automatic change for Daylight Savings (see http://www.codeproject.com/datetime/dstbugs.asp for more information). This makes us think that the file has changed. A bug in 6.0.0 (fixed in the latest nightlies) deletes the file from the database rather than re-reading tags. If you are seeing this bug, updating to the latest 6.0.1 nightly (http://www.slimdevices.com/downloads/nightly/latest/6.0.1/) will fix it. --Vidur ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: "EMPTY" when browsing
* Phillip Kerman shaped the electrons to say... Nearly all my album tracks are unavailable... when I do Browse music>Browse Artists>some artist>some album> all I see is EMPTY (Same thing with Browse Albums) I had to give up my old way of accessing files (Browse Music Folder) because v6.0.0 has serious performance issues with this feature (I'd prefer to just browse folder). But maybe because I never really used browse music/browse artist (or browse alums) I'm using them wrong. Is everyone that's having this problem on Windows and in a Daylight Savings timezone? Thanks. -D -- "My pockets hurt." - Homer Simpson ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
Rich Freedman wrote: ... I'm willing to help where I can, though I'm not (yet) intimately familiar with Perl. Please forgive me if I am out of line here, but I'd like to suggest that, once the hubub around the new release settles down, a small core of developers, whether from SD or the open-source community, take a breather from both general single-issue bug-fixing and new feature production, and analyze the existing code base for stability and maintainability issues. Then these issues could be addressed. Once the base is stable (the music plays, the music continues to play, and the player shows the song that is actually playing, for example), then everyone could proceed with bug fixing additional features and adding new ones. Again, despite the learning curve, I'm more than willing to help with all of the above. P.S. Do I understand from earlier messages on the list that the server code is single-threaded? If so, this explains a lot of the behavior that I have seen, and seems like an obvious place to try to improve performance and scalability. Hi, yes, that's correct. http://slimdevices.com/dev_resources.html to get started. You'll want a subversion client: http://subversion.tigris.org/project_packages.html -- Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture... Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip since 1996! ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
I'll start off by saying that I love my new SB2, and am very grateful to everyone at slim devices and in the open-source community who has worked so hard on the SB. What follows is in the spirit of wanting this product to succeed, and of wanting to help make it do so. That said, I think that the server software needs a lot of work. I agree wholeheartedly with the need for a solid set of basic functionality vs. lots of new features. This is my main complaint with most commercial software too - lots of features, but questionable basic functionality. I just got my SB2 on Friday (3 days ago), and am running slimserver 6.0. (on Windows XP) I have never run any of the earlier versions, so I don't have anything to compare it to, but I understand that the code is now about 3 years old? While the server does have lots of features, it seems that it has a relatively high number of bugs in the basic functionality. So far, in three days, I've seen: - Server crashes when attempting to play a specific external stream (RadioIO Classical) - Wrong entry displayed in "now playing" while using a playlist (off by three entries, for entire song) - A mode where the player becomes inoperative, and the date/time on the display changes rapidly, until the player is power-cycled. - The player stops playing at the end of every song, while using a playlist. None of these problems, except the first, are consistently reproducable. All but the first seem to me to be problems with basic functionality - external streams are nice, but I consider them a 'feature'. I'm willing to help where I can, though I'm not (yet) intimately familiar with Perl. Please forgive me if I am out of line here, but I'd like to suggest that, once the hubub around the new release settles down, a small core of developers, whether from SD or the open-source community, take a breather from both general single-issue bug-fixing and new feature production, and analyze the existing code base for stability and maintainability issues. Then these issues could be addressed. Once the base is stable (the music plays, the music continues to play, and the player shows the song that is actually playing, for example), then everyone could proceed with bug fixing additional features and adding new ones. Again, despite the learning curve, I'm more than willing to help with all of the above. P.S. Do I understand from earlier messages on the list that the server code is single-threaded? If so, this explains a lot of the behavior that I have seen, and seems like an obvious place to try to improve performance and scalability. -- Rich Freedman Senior Software Engineer Cross Current Corporation http://www.crosscurrent.com -- >Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:17:20 +0100 >From: "Patrick Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: RE: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing >To: "Slim Devices Discussion" > >Jack > >I don't doubt that it's a major project to move away from Perl, but IME of troubleshooting development projects, sometimes you do have to take a step backwards to go further forwards. (I don't know enough to suggest that that's the case here, I hasten to add).> > >I take your point about the overkill of today's hardware, but that's exactly what's produced all that large, slow, resource hungry un-managable code out there isn't it? >Lean & Mean (TM), I say ;-) > >The thing is, I'm running a XP on a 2.5G P4 with 256M RAM (not enough I know), with a test db of less that 400 songs and Slimserver with Softsqueeze frequently pauses playing if I pull up a page on the web. The HTML interface and the fishbone skin in particular is really excellent, but the refresh is painfully slow and bit clunky. My >concern is that if the average 'joe' tests out slimserver on his windows computer before buying a Squeezebox, and gets the same results, he probably won't bother - and that would be a real shame. > >To me it just seems a bit counter-productive to be adding new features on top, if the basic code isn't fast and clean. I can put up with a few bugs, but the music has to keep playing! > >Anyway, I think my SB2 might arrive tomorrow; I'm really looking forward to it and I know just how hard everyone at slim devices has worked to get it (and the software to run it) to me. So thanks! ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
> I've worked with and sold much buggier products than this > one, lighten > up folks. You're getting what you paid for and a lot more. > Bugs are part > of the territory. First, I don't I agree with this statement. The general acceptance people have for buggy software has serious long-term costs to productivity. I do think I'm getting what I paid for because Slim stands behind the product and constantly fixes issues that arise. The second thing I disagree with, however, is that people complaining need to lighten up. In fact, the complaints are helpful. If everyone just returned their units this wouldn't help anything. At least my complaints are intended to get closer to a better product. Thanks, Phillip ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
Jack I don't doubt that it's a major project to move away from Perl, but IME of troubleshooting development projects, sometimes you do have to take a step backwards to go further forwards. (I don't know enough to suggest that that's the case here, I hasten to add). I take your point about the overkill of today's hardware, but that's exactly what's produced all that large, slow, resource hungry un-managable code out there isn't it? Lean & Mean (TM), I say ;-) The thing is, I'm running a XP on a 2.5G P4 with 256M RAM (not enough I know), with a test db of less that 400 songs and Slimserver with Softsqueeze frequently pauses playing if I pull up a page on the web. The HTML interface and the fishbone skin in particular is really excellent, but the refresh is painfully slow and bit clunky. My concern is that if the average 'joe' tests out slimserver on his windows computer before buying a Squeezebox, and gets the same results, he probably won't bother - and that would be a real shame. To me it just seems a bit counter-productive to be adding new features on top, if the basic code isn't fast and clean. I can put up with a few bugs, but the music has to keep playing! Anyway, I think my SB2 might arrive tomorrow; I'm really looking forward to it and I know just how hard everyone at slim devices has worked to get it (and the software to run it) to me. So thanks! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jack Coates Sent: 04 April 2005 16:45 To: Slim Devices Discussion Subject: Re: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing Patrick Dixon wrote: > A couple of things do worry me though, and they are probably a result of my > unfamilirity with Perl and the open-source community. I wonder whether the > choice of Perl is now causing many of the 'resource hogging' problems that > seem to be at the root of many of the complaints. As the size and complexity > of the code has increased, is the overhead of an interpreted language just > too much? The other thing that worries me is the structure and documentation > of the code itself. I know (again from personal experience) that when the > pressure's on, dotting 'i's and crossing 't's is the first thing to go, and > (to me) Perl looks very terse and unstuctured anyway. That can't make it > easy to develop and maintain. > Nah. Remember what incredible overkill today's system is, and remember that all three target OS's are pretty good at multi-tasking. The CPU/RAM overhead of interpreted language is absolutely nothing. One thing to realize is that rewriting the source code, test suite, and build environment from the ground up in cross-platform code written in a low-level compiled language is a big project. Like, hire three engineers, buy a couple of servers and estimate 12-18 months from start to the present level of stability. You think switching meta-data storage backends destabilized the system? Ha. Then add in the joy of low-level memory management and security holes galore because the low-level compiled language expects the programmer to take care of all that. Cross-platform interpreted languages are a Good Thing(TM). Perl is a good thing. More importantly, ditching everything and rebuilding from scratch is a Bad Thing(TM). I've worked with and sold much buggier products than this one, lighten up folks. You're getting what you paid for and a lot more. Bugs are part of the territory. -- Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture... Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip since 1996! ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
Steven Moore wrote: ... Now this may be a stupid question so feel free to shout at me. If Perl is an interpreted language is there anyway that it the server software could be compiled for each platform for increased performance? Steven Moore ... "there are no stupid questions, just a lot of inquisitive idiots" :) Sorry, couldn't help it. Anyway, no. There are some products out there that claim to compile Perl, but most are probably doing the same embedded-interpreter trick that Slim already does in the Win32 executable. Besides, thouse products usually require licensing that is incompatible with open-sourcing and giving away the server. It's highly questionable whether performance would even improve... IMHO, the bottleneck at this point is single-threading, not interpretation. Of course, if someone around here knows C++ and wants to prove me wrong, I'm all ears :) This guy (http://lists.slimdevices.com/archives/developers/2004-September/010419.html) might have some tips for you. -- Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture... Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip since 1996! ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
Patrick Dixon wrote: A couple of things do worry me though, and they are probably a result of my unfamilirity with Perl and the open-source community. I wonder whether the choice of Perl is now causing many of the 'resource hogging' problems that seem to be at the root of many of the complaints. As the size and complexity of the code has increased, is the overhead of an interpreted language just too much? The other thing that worries me is the structure and documentation of the code itself. I know (again from personal experience) that when the pressure's on, dotting 'i's and crossing 't's is the first thing to go, and (to me) Perl looks very terse and unstuctured anyway. That can't make it easy to develop and maintain. Nah. Remember what incredible overkill today's system is, and remember that all three target OS's are pretty good at multi-tasking. The CPU/RAM overhead of interpreted language is absolutely nothing. One thing to realize is that rewriting the source code, test suite, and build environment from the ground up in cross-platform code written in a low-level compiled language is a big project. Like, hire three engineers, buy a couple of servers and estimate 12-18 months from start to the present level of stability. You think switching meta-data storage backends destabilized the system? Ha. Then add in the joy of low-level memory management and security holes galore because the low-level compiled language expects the programmer to take care of all that. Cross-platform interpreted languages are a Good Thing(TM). Perl is a good thing. More importantly, ditching everything and rebuilding from scratch is a Bad Thing(TM). I've worked with and sold much buggier products than this one, lighten up folks. You're getting what you paid for and a lot more. Bugs are part of the territory. -- Jack at Monkeynoodle dot Org: It's a Scientific Venture... Riding the Emergency Third Rail Power Trip since 1996! ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
kdf wrote: Personally, I've become sickened by the negative attitudes here. I can understand this attitude, I really can. It's really frustrating to work hard on something and hear nothing but complaints. The most rewarding experience I've ever had in 18 years in the software industry was working at a company called Innosoft International. We'd go to trade shows and customers would actually come up and tell us how wonderful our software was because it just worked. That was great because it is _so_ rare. People typically react to stuff that's broken rather than stuff that works, with the reaction being based on expectation level. Slim Devices occupies an interesting intersection of computer hardware/software and consumer home electronics, two markets with very different expectation levels. Consumers expect home electronics to just work; the expectation level is very high. OTOH, the expectation level for computer software is very low, with consumers tolerating a rather ridiculous number of bugs, security holes, and horrific UI's I've got a wireless SB1 (non-graphic) running with the 5.4 server. It works pretty well, although it suffers from the occasional dropout. I'm not one of those who has been testing 6.0. Hats off to those who have, because end-user testing is clearly the way that this software gets better. Since I'm not testing I'm not griping...I'm just going to wait for 6.1 to come along before I upgrade. To close on a positive note, let me say that listening to music with the Squeezebox is a quantum improvement over listening to CD's. I find myself listening to music I forgot I had, and putting together hours-long playlists for get togethers is wonderful. Props to the volunteers in the user community who have helped make this happen. - Jeff ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
On 4 Apr 2005, at 9:21 am, Patrick Dixon wrote: I don't actually think the majority here are 'negative' (but I do think Phillip Kerman made some very good points). Personally I'm very happy to test and help get the bugs out in the interests of making a better product, but I'm never quite sure if my unfamiliarily with Perl, Java and Linux is a help or a hinderance in that process! (I do figure that if I have a problem with a Windows version, then probably the 'average' user will too - so that's got to be useful). I also understand (from personal experience) the problems of software and hardware product development, and the pressures on small companies in a competitive marketplace. A couple of things do worry me though, and they are probably a result of my unfamilirity with Perl and the open-source community. I wonder whether the choice of Perl is now causing many of the 'resource hogging' problems that seem to be at the root of many of the complaints. As the size and complexity of the code has increased, is the overhead of an interpreted language just too much? The other thing that worries me is the structure and Now this may be a stupid question so feel free to shout at me. If Perl is an interpreted language is there anyway that it the server software could be compiled for each platform for increased performance? Steven Moore documentation of the code itself. I know (again from personal experience) that when the pressure's on, dotting 'i's and crossing 't's is the first thing to go, and (to me) Perl looks very terse and unstuctured anyway. That can't make it easy to develop and maintain. Forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn, but I do appreciate the effort that's being put in, and I hope I am helping rather than hindering that effort. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of kdf Sent: 04 April 2005 08:10 To: Slim Devices Discussion Subject: Re: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing Quoting Michael Bowyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Please try the latest nightly - either 6.0.1 or 6.1 - this should be fixed there. -D I've patiently waited weeks for the new version 6. Not even a week after its release and we're back to 'try the latest nightly'. Excellent! so don't use it. go back and join the crowd who refuse to test. your other option is to wait months until someone else with a more constructive frame of mind takes the time to test and it gets fixed. Personally, I've become sickened by the negative attitudes here. -kdf ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
6.0, on the other hand, is unusably bug-ridden -- but this really shouldn't be a surprise, as the Slim people ripped out the guts of the thing and reworked it. Based on knowing how unsmoothly that usually works in any project, past experience with SlimServer releases, and looking at the bug reports before 6.0 was deemed "release quality," it had to have been clear to most people on this list that SlimServer 6.0 would effectively be a beta product well after its official release. I'd reckon 6.0 was put up as stable release for the following reasons: - The SB2 started shipping end of March, there needed to be a release server for it. - Maintaining two really distinct code bases was too much work - now everybody can concentrate on fixing bugs in the version that counts. - Too few people were willing to test ss6 before its 'release', see the 2.6 Linux kernel People say 5.4, the official version for the sb1, was stable. I wouldn't know for I haven't tried it much - but iall boils down to one thing: When you buy an even vaguely computer related product shortly after its release you buy a prototype. The first few mainboards with a given new chipset will have serious kinks, where even a BIOS update won't help. I've yet to buy a graphics card which doesn't need at least 20 driver revs and one h/w revision to at least remotely work. The SB2 has been out a week if that, what did you expect? Please wait two months before you bitch. Having said that, all my problems with the sb have been related to server hardware or software configuration. Silmserver, maybe because it's a little picky, has exposed multiple problems with the host machine so far, and I kind of like that, since all the issues have affected the other apps on the server in more clandestine ways. Sure, the db still duplicates entries from time to time, the (unsupported but JustWorks) mysql backend still times out over night, some operations (shuffle, etc) have a noticeable delay. All in all I'm fine, though. C. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
On 3/4/05 at 7:42 pm -0700, Phillip Kerman wrote Here's my recent experience over the last FEW DAYS: --disconnected wireless SB1s almost every morning. So is this new for you? I get it regularly, and it would be great to have it fixed. But, unlike the other issues you mention, I suspect that this may be beyond SlimDevices control. It is something to do with the wireless network and what happens when the computer is asleep for a long time. And if it is network-related, there's just so many different forms of hardware out there that it may be almost impossible to diagnose. Also, of course, it's an easy thing for the user to deal with. It's no more effort than actually switching on a piece of equipment. -- Daniel Cohen ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
I don't actually think the majority here are 'negative' (but I do think Phillip Kerman made some very good points). Personally I'm very happy to test and help get the bugs out in the interests of making a better product, but I'm never quite sure if my unfamiliarily with Perl, Java and Linux is a help or a hinderance in that process! (I do figure that if I have a problem with a Windows version, then probably the 'average' user will too - so that's got to be useful). I also understand (from personal experience) the problems of software and hardware product development, and the pressures on small companies in a competitive marketplace. A couple of things do worry me though, and they are probably a result of my unfamilirity with Perl and the open-source community. I wonder whether the choice of Perl is now causing many of the 'resource hogging' problems that seem to be at the root of many of the complaints. As the size and complexity of the code has increased, is the overhead of an interpreted language just too much? The other thing that worries me is the structure and documentation of the code itself. I know (again from personal experience) that when the pressure's on, dotting 'i's and crossing 't's is the first thing to go, and (to me) Perl looks very terse and unstuctured anyway. That can't make it easy to develop and maintain. Forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn, but I do appreciate the effort that's being put in, and I hope I am helping rather than hindering that effort. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of kdf Sent: 04 April 2005 08:10 To: Slim Devices Discussion Subject: Re: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing Quoting Michael Bowyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >Please try the latest nightly - either 6.0.1 or 6.1 - this should be fixed > there. > > > >-D > > > I've patiently waited weeks for the new version 6. Not even a week after its > release and we're back to 'try the latest nightly'. Excellent! > so don't use it. go back and join the crowd who refuse to test. your other option is to wait months until someone else with a more constructive frame of mind takes the time to test and it gets fixed. Personally, I've become sickened by the negative attitudes here. -kdf ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
Well I and a few others have had a particular problem with v6 but once we opened a bug report and explained the problem it seems to be fixed. No software is perfect, even the mighty Microsoft and Apple make mistakes but if we all pull together, report the bugs and help solve them, the software will improve. I think this is the way forward. Steven Moore On 4 Apr 2005, at 8:10 am, kdf wrote: Quoting Michael Bowyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Please try the latest nightly - either 6.0.1 or 6.1 - this should be fixed there. -D I've patiently waited weeks for the new version 6. Not even a week after its release and we're back to 'try the latest nightly'. Excellent! so don't use it. go back and join the crowd who refuse to test. your other option is to wait months until someone else with a more constructive frame of mind takes the time to test and it gets fixed. Personally, I've become sickened by the negative attitudes here. -kdf ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
Quoting Michael Bowyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >Please try the latest nightly - either 6.0.1 or 6.1 - this should be fixed > there. > > > >-D > > > I've patiently waited weeks for the new version 6. Not even a week after its > release and we're back to 'try the latest nightly'. Excellent! > so don't use it. go back and join the crowd who refuse to test. your other option is to wait months until someone else with a more constructive frame of mind takes the time to test and it gets fixed. Personally, I've become sickened by the negative attitudes here. -kdf ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
> On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Phillip Kerman wrote: > > > Here's the bottom line and unfortunate truth: slimserver is > not stable. > > 5.4 is/was pretty good. Yeah, it had bugs, but no more than, > say, Windows > Media Player. > > 6.0, on the other hand, is unusably bug-ridden -- but this really > shouldn't be a surprise, as the Slim people ripped out the > guts of the > thing and reworked it. Based on knowing how unsmoothly that > usually works > in any project, past experience with SlimServer releases, and > looking at > the bug reports before 6.0 was deemed "release quality," it > had to have > been clear to most people on this list that SlimServer 6.0 would > effectively be a beta product well after its official release. Maybe I'm just naive but sincerely figured that it wouldn't move from beta to official release until it was stable. Plus, I think people are totally justified griping about bugs in a release version vs. versions that are said to be beta or so-called nightlies. > I evangelize the hell out of Squeezeboxes, but there's no way > I'm going to > tell anyone to buy a Squeezebox 2 for the near future.) I do too... I'm sure I sold two last night to friends at a party--but I did warn them what they were in for. By the way, my take on SB2... which has serious kinks... is it's very close to solid. No drop outs and I moved to wireless from wired because I had so many issues with Flacs. Now, I'm back to a new list of personal pet peeves with the hardware and software. The thing is they're not at all unreasonable expectations. I'm getting frustrated I'll admit. Thanks, Phillip ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Phillip Kerman wrote: Here's the bottom line and unfortunate truth: slimserver is not stable. 5.4 is/was pretty good. Yeah, it had bugs, but no more than, say, Windows Media Player. 6.0, on the other hand, is unusably bug-ridden -- but this really shouldn't be a surprise, as the Slim people ripped out the guts of the thing and reworked it. Based on knowing how unsmoothly that usually works in any project, past experience with SlimServer releases, and looking at the bug reports before 6.0 was deemed "release quality," it had to have been clear to most people on this list that SlimServer 6.0 would effectively be a beta product well after its official release. It'd be nice if Slim stopped releasing things before they were ready; but until then, the sensible thing to do if you want stability is to let other people be the beta testers -- don't buy new products from Slim right away, don't upgrade your server to a new release for a while, that sort of thing. But, I hear Michael's point: we're all so patient... I'll even be more patient... in fact, I'm sold on the product--so I sort of have to be patient. But what can we do here? Are there QA tools that can be applied to open source software that aren't being used? Is this a natural outcome of open source (I don't think so)? Slim could just stop releasing stuff before it's done. It was pretty clear that 6.0 wasn't really a release version, but it got called one anyway. If we were in a situation where final betas looked rock-solid, but the actual releases revealed bugs from the more diverse setups of a wider-ranging group of users, well, that's a tricky situation. But the situation we're actually in, where the betas are known to be flaky and buggy but are bumped to production anyway, is pretty straightforward to solve: Just don't do that. (And yes, I'm aware that from Slim's perspective, this isn't that simple. They have to get their new product out there to drive new revenue/remain competitive in a fast-paced market, can't do it without the new software, and therefore need to accelerate releases. Still, I think in the long-term, releasing stuff before it's finished is a lousy strategy. I evangelize the hell out of Squeezeboxes, but there's no way I'm going to tell anyone to buy a Squeezebox 2 for the near future.) -- Mike Kozlowski http://www.klio.org/mlk/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
RE: [slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
> > >Please try the latest nightly - either 6.0.1 or 6.1 - this > should be fixed there. > > > >-D > > > I've patiently waited weeks for the new version 6. Not even a > week after its release and we're back to 'try the latest > nightly'. Excellent! I want to add to this sentiment but make sure that my feelings are understood. I realize what it takes to write software as it's my main job too. And, I think I speak for some of the other users when I say that even if we get frustrated that we appreciate everyone's hard work. Plus, we're all geeks to some degree if we signed up for this list. But... man, isn't there some way the server can stabilize? That one idea of two branches is great: one "slim" with core features that are solid and one "out there" server with all the extra stuff. One assumption with the branched idea, however, is that the "out there" features are the cause for the server's flakiness. Here's the bottom line and unfortunate truth: slimserver is not stable. It's really cool... it can appear stable for long periods at a time--provided you use it the same way every day. But there are just a few things here and there that make it flake. Here's my recent experience over the last FEW DAYS: --disconnected wireless SB1s almost every morning. --server crashes when I press shuffle. --server crashes when I synch to players. --server crashes when I dive into the internet radio. --"now playing" displays title for previous song. --database gets corrupt. Now, on the good side, I don't think I've had one drop out yet with my SB2! Yay. Anyway, I hope this doesn't just turn into a thread about all that's bad. I want more constructive suggestions. But, I hear Michael's point: we're all so patient... I'll even be more patient... in fact, I'm sold on the product--so I sort of have to be patient. But what can we do here? Are there QA tools that can be applied to open source software that aren't being used? Is this a natural outcome of open source (I don't think so)? Also, I think it's unreasonable to expect everyone will install the nightlies. Sure, if you go and fix a problem for me I should either try the fix or mellow out about the issue. I can see resentment on both sides: personally, I don't feel like constantly installing the patches and those who implement fixes don't want users saying we're not going to test their fix. Sincerely, Phillip ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
>Please try the latest nightly - either 6.0.1 or 6.1 - this should be fixed >there. > >-D I've patiently waited weeks for the new version 6. Not even a week after its release and we're back to 'try the latest nightly'. Excellent! ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Re: "EMPTY" when browsing
* Brett Bobley shaped the electrons to say... I just got exactly the same problem! I had been using server 5.4 just fine. I upgraded to 6.0.0 two days ago. It was fine for the first day. But this morning, everything said "EMPTY" just as Phillip said. I then did a WIPE CACHE. The songs came back, but like others have seen, much of the data is wrong. Like I'll have albums for one artist listed under a different artist! (normally one near it alphabetically). But I can't see a pattern. I think my tags are fine. Like I said, it worked under 5.4 (and even under 6.0 for a day). I'm running under Windows xp. Please try the latest nightly - either 6.0.1 or 6.1 - this should be fixed there. -D -- the auto mechanic told me there was something wrong with my rear differential. I told him I never took calculus. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
[slim] re: "EMPTY" when browsing
Phillip Kerman said: > Nearly all my album tracks are unavailable... when I do Browse music>Browse> Artists>some artist>some album> all I see is EMPTY (Same thing with Browse> Albums) I just got exactly the same problem! I had been using server 5.4 just fine. I upgraded to 6.0.0 two days ago. It was fine for the first day. But this morning, everything said "EMPTY" just as Phillip said. I then did a WIPE CACHE. The songs came back, but like others have seen, much of the data is wrong. Like I'll have albums for one artist listed under a different artist! (normally one near it alphabetically). But I can't see a pattern. I think my tags are fine. Like I said, it worked under 5.4 (and even under 6.0 for a day). I'm running under Windows xp. Brett ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
