Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Embedded GR-IEEE802-11
Quick reply to your first point: I apologize that my comment was not clear. It was no complaint at all. I asked about a very specific application of GR-IEEE802-11, namely whether anyone had tried to implement it using an embedded system. It has been almost a month (12APR) since I initially posted the inquiry. No one replied, and I reposted two days later (14APR), to which you replied. Since then (almost three weeks) no one else has weighed in. I am not being critical of the community. I simply take this lack of response to be "telling" of whether someone has tried to do what I am proposing. In this case silence is not affirmation. I'm not being critical of the community, I take the lack of a response as an answer to my question. On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Marcus Müller <marcus.muel...@ettus.com> wrote: > Hi Tom, > > On 05/03/2017 05:21 PM, Thomas Wilkinson wrote: > > Thanks for the reply, Marcus. That you are the only one to reply, is also > telling. > > Of what, exactly? That's an honest question: I, and the whole project, are > pretty concerned with how make the GR community work best, I'm really not > sure how to interpret that. I'm kinda infamous for replying before others > had the chance to. Is that some kind of complaint that only one person > reacted? Well, maybe the others simply didn't have enough to add that'd > justify spending their, or their employer's, time on an answer. > > Some more context may help. The GR-IEEE802-11 transceiver appears to be > the best jumping off point for a radio system that takes advantage of the > robust wifi/OFDM waveform. > > When you need a packet radio network system, yes, that'd be the case. If > you more in for a streaming thing, look at the gr-dtv digital TV systems. > > As a radio, this would be implemented without a laptop or PC in an > enclosed system, which is essentially why I ask about embedded > implementations of GR-IEEE802-11. > > > More specifically, by embedded I mean size, weight, power and thermal > management are limiting factors in design.While an x86 single board > computer is not out of the question, it does challenge size and thermal > management design criteria. > > You might be significantly underestimating the computational power needed > to do a complete software stack implementation of WiFi. Yes, you'll need an > x86 single board computer, or a VERY beefy ARM/Sparc/... system. > > > Another way about this question of an embedded implementation is how much > or how little does GR-IEEE802-11 rely on the FPGA? > > Not at all. GNU Radio is a pure _software_ radio implementation. All the > FPGA does is convert the samples to the sampling rate you need. > > My understanding is that GR-IEEE802-11 has pushed time-sensitive functions > like CSMA to the FPGA, > > not the case. > > while most other functions are processed by the CPU. I assume that pushing > more onto the FPGA would reduce CPU performance requirements, > making GR-IEEE802-11 "more embeddable". > > Is this a viable path? > > Yes, sure! But: the main motivation to implement the Wifi handling in > hardware is not CPU load – it's latency, and solving that by moving MAC to > the FPGA of a USRP implies that you have to implement significant parts of > the PHY in FPGA hardware. > > Is there room on the B210 or B200mini--as examples--to push more onto the > FPGA? > > Yes, there's some, limited, unused ressources on the FPGA, but the B210 > and B200mini are definitely not the devices with plenty FPGA to spare. In > the B2xx series, that'd be the 205mini-i. > > Why not "embed" more onto the FPGA? > > Simply: SDR is hard, because it's software engineering and radio > engineering in one. You need experts of both fields to get significant > progress at significantly optimized speed. Add FPGA engineering to that, > and you need yet another steep-learning-curve skillset. > > Best regards, > Marcus > > > On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Marcus Müller <marcus.muel...@ettus.com> > wrote: > >> Hi Tom, >> >> define "embedded". If you use an x86 or powerful multi-core ARM >> Single-Board-Computer, which I'd argue can be an embedded device, then >> sure, I don't see any limitations with that compared to what you can do on >> a PC. Of course, dealing with 20 MHz channels on a poor ARM processor is >> very hard, so this might or might not work out, and might require >> hand-tweaking system performance. Don't forget that if using >> gr-ieee-802-11, you'll need a high-bandwidth link to your SDR hardware – >> typically, Gigabit Ethernet or USB3, the CPU power to handle the torrent of >> data that enters and leaves your computer as samples throug
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Embedded GR-IEEE802-11
Thanks for the reply, Marcus. That you are the only one to reply, is also telling. Some more context may help. The GR-IEEE802-11 transceiver appears to be the best jumping off point for a radio system that takes advantage of the robust wifi/OFDM waveform. As a radio, this would be implemented without a laptop or PC in an enclosed system, which is essentially why I ask about embedded implementations of GR-IEEE802-11. More specifically, by embedded I mean size, weight, power and thermal management are limiting factors in design.While an x86 single board computer is not out of the question, it does challenge size and thermal management design criteria. Another way about this question of an embedded implementation is how much or how little does GR-IEEE802-11 rely on the FPGA? My understanding is that GR-IEEE802-11 has pushed time-sensitive functions like CSMA to the FPGA, while most other functions are processed by the CPU. I assume that pushing more onto the FPGA would reduce CPU performance requirements, making GR-IEEE802-11 "more embeddable". Is this a viable path? Is there room on the B210 or B200mini--as examples--to push more onto the FPGA? Why not "embed" more onto the FPGA? On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Marcus Müller <marcus.muel...@ettus.com> wrote: > Hi Tom, > > define "embedded". If you use an x86 or powerful multi-core ARM > Single-Board-Computer, which I'd argue can be an embedded device, then > sure, I don't see any limitations with that compared to what you can do on > a PC. Of course, dealing with 20 MHz channels on a poor ARM processor is > very hard, so this might or might not work out, and might require > hand-tweaking system performance. Don't forget that if using > gr-ieee-802-11, you'll need a high-bandwidth link to your SDR hardware – > typically, Gigabit Ethernet or USB3, the CPU power to handle the torrent of > data that enters and leaves your computer as samples through that link, the > power to process that data, and only if you've got all that covered and > still have CPU to spare to actually do something with your data payload, > you might consider doing a sensible network data rate benchmark. > > Generally, regarding rate: This is not 100.0% true, but in essence: Either > your computer is fast enough to run the flow graph at the sampling rate you > need to cover the full channel, or not. It's not like "my slow computer can > reliably use gr-ieee-802-11, but to get great rates, I'll need a slightly > faster one". > It's more like "my computer is too slow, the CPU can't keep up with the > millions of samples needing processing per second, so it totally does not > work", or "my computer is fast enough, it reliably works in all modes". > > Best regards, > > Marcus > > On 14.04.2017 18:58, Thomas Wilkinson wrote: > > Just wanted to push this inquiry back to the surface: > > Is anyone aware of GR-IEEE802-11 having been implemented with an embedded > system? If so, what is the maximum data rate achieved? > > Thanks, > > Tom > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 3:22 PM, Thomas Wilkinson <tbwil...@ncsu.edu> > wrote: > >> Is anyone aware of GR-IEEE802-11 having been implemented with an embedded >> system? If so, what is the maximum data rate achieved? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Tom >> > > > > -- > Regards, > > Tom Wilkinson > SMART Scholar <http://smart.asee.org/> > MS Student, Electrical Engineering > NC State University > c: 919.951.4449 <%28919%29%20951-4449> > e: tbwil...@ncsu.edu > > > ___ > Discuss-gnuradio mailing > listDiscuss-gnuradio@gnu.orghttps://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio > > > > ___ > Discuss-gnuradio mailing list > Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio > > -- Regards, Tom Wilkinson SMART Scholar <http://smart.asee.org/> MS Student, Electrical Engineering NC State University c: 919.951.4449 <(919)%20951-4449> e: tbwil...@ncsu.edu ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Embedded GR-IEEE802-11
Just wanted to push this inquiry back to the surface: Is anyone aware of GR-IEEE802-11 having been implemented with an embedded system? If so, what is the maximum data rate achieved? Thanks, Tom On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 3:22 PM, Thomas Wilkinson <tbwil...@ncsu.edu> wrote: > Is anyone aware of GR-IEEE802-11 having been implemented with an embedded > system? If so, what is the maximum data rate achieved? > > Thanks, > > Tom > -- Regards, Tom Wilkinson SMART Scholar <http://smart.asee.org/> MS Student, Electrical Engineering NC State University c: 919.951.4449 <(919)%20951-4449> e: tbwil...@ncsu.edu ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
[Discuss-gnuradio] Embedded GR-IEEE802-11
Is anyone aware of GR-IEEE802-11 having been implemented with an embedded system? If so, what is the maximum data rate achieved? Thanks, Tom ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] OFDM/GR-IEEE802-11
Understood. Thanks! On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Marcus Müller <marcus.muel...@ettus.com> wrote: > Depends on where you are. But usually, no. > > On 31.03.2017 19:54, Thomas Wilkinson wrote: > > Legally, I can perform tests within ISM bands. Correct? > > On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Martin Braun <mar...@gnuradio.org> wrote: > >> You can change the frequency technically. Legally, we can't give you >> advice here other than to follow the rules. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 03/30/2017 09:52 AM, Thomas Wilkinson wrote: >> > >> > Please forgive me as I am new to SDRs and DSP. >> > >> > I am interested in development of a radio link using two B210s and >> > GR-IEEE802-11. However, I would like for this link to operate at any >> > frequency. I am interested in a robust waveform with minimum of 11MBPS >> > throughput, which is why I am interested in OFDM/802.11. My very limited >> > hope/understanding is that I can potentially change the frequency of >> > operation in the PHY layer. >> > >> > Thanks in advance for your help. >> > >> > >> > Tom >> > >> > >> > ___ >> > Discuss-gnuradio mailing list >> > Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org >> > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio >> > >> >> >> ___ >> Discuss-gnuradio mailing list >> Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio >> > > > > -- > Regards, > > Tom Wilkinson > SMART Scholar <http://smart.asee.org/> > MS Student, Electrical Engineering > NC State University > c: 919.951.4449 <%28919%29%20951-4449> > e: tbwil...@ncsu.edu > > > ___ > Discuss-gnuradio mailing > listDiscuss-gnuradio@gnu.orghttps://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio > > > > ___ > Discuss-gnuradio mailing list > Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio > > -- Regards, Tom Wilkinson SMART Scholar <http://smart.asee.org/> MS Student, Electrical Engineering NC State University c: 919.951.4449 e: tbwil...@ncsu.edu ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] OFDM/GR-IEEE802-11
Legally, I can perform tests within ISM bands. Correct? On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Martin Braun <mar...@gnuradio.org> wrote: > You can change the frequency technically. Legally, we can't give you > advice here other than to follow the rules. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 03/30/2017 09:52 AM, Thomas Wilkinson wrote: > > > > Please forgive me as I am new to SDRs and DSP. > > > > I am interested in development of a radio link using two B210s and > > GR-IEEE802-11. However, I would like for this link to operate at any > > frequency. I am interested in a robust waveform with minimum of 11MBPS > > throughput, which is why I am interested in OFDM/802.11. My very limited > > hope/understanding is that I can potentially change the frequency of > > operation in the PHY layer. > > > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > ___ > > Discuss-gnuradio mailing list > > Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org > > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio > > > > > ___ > Discuss-gnuradio mailing list > Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio > -- Regards, Tom Wilkinson SMART Scholar <http://smart.asee.org/> MS Student, Electrical Engineering NC State University c: 919.951.4449 <(919)%20951-4449> e: tbwil...@ncsu.edu ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
[Discuss-gnuradio] OFDM/GR-IEEE802-11
Please forgive me as I am new to SDRs and DSP. I am interested in development of a radio link using two B210s and GR-IEEE802-11. However, I would like for this link to operate at any frequency. I am interested in a robust waveform with minimum of 11MBPS throughput, which is why I am interested in OFDM/802.11. My very limited hope/understanding is that I can potentially change the frequency of operation in the PHY layer. Thanks in advance for your help. Tom ___ Discuss-gnuradio mailing list Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
