Re: Review/update of gworkspace translation
> Are there some volonteers to deals with the attached files ? How may I do a Russian translation? Is there any beginning of it? Or I just take one of the two files you sent, and start from scratch? -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUMail sources
> I've also started (slowly) working on an app I'm calling "Tickler" which > will be a GTD app (using TaskWarrior as a backend). Once that's usable, > I'll probably be hooked for life. What a neat idea. And nice to see you writing that stuff. Please release your code anytime, finished or not; it could be even easier for me to read it while it's small. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: piStep Development Project
Dear Adam, I do not use Slack because its clients -- particularly their main website -- are proprietary and a pain to customize to fit my needs. I would rather we use Internet Relay Chat (IRC) whose clients are customizable, including e.g. TalkSoup.app at GNUstep. There simply is no Slack client for GNUstep that I know of. For those of you who like cloud experience at IRC we can run weechat on a linux shell and use its web frontend at http://www.glowing-bear.org/ to fetch chat logs and to chat; it is very user-friendly. We have irc://irc.freenode.net/gnustep and I would suggest that rather it becomes more active than we split the communities of people familiar with gnustep across different chat platforms. We already have the mailing list and IRC; that's two places to follow, one with e-mail, and one with interactive chat. Please advise if you have any questions about using IRC. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: List question
> It seems to me that I don't receive a copy of the messages I send to > gnustep's list. > > Is it a problem of my gmail imap account or is it a setting of my > gnustep's lists' subscription that I could change ? I believe you can subscribe using the web ui at https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep or by e-mailing a message with subject 'subscribe' to discuss-gnustep-requ...@gnu.org . -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Question to Gregory Casamento
Gregory Casamento, Can you please enforce topic separation on this list for a message called "Questions" to not become a meta discussion. People could write up proper subject lines before they click SEND. This could greatly improve things. I asked questions to the list which began to be answered in the most helpful way, but the discussio stopped a week ago though it was not finished. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: PC crash (Re: Questions)
Riccardo Mottola wrote: > Hi Svetlana, > > Svetlana A. Tkachenko wrote: > >> >I suppose you use the debian packaged version? Which one is it? > > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=814564 > > I confirm that when I compile 0.6.2 by hand the crash is absent. Thank > > you. > > It is a Debian issue and I hope they can prioritise this bug. > > Yes, one of the bug I explicitly fixed was the crasher of parenthesis > highlighting. It was a bit hard to find, so I remember well. > > Riccardo Thank you, Riccardo. When I can, I will try to get Debian to include the new version as soon as possible. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Documentation questions (was: Re: Questions)
I'm renaming the thread to get help with answers to some questions
contained therein.
These questions are included below.
> Debian should perhaps ship them as doc packages ? Are you using debian
> packages for GNUstep?
Yes, I am. Which packages?
> It would make sense to use HTML as the viewable format,
There also needs to be a way to structure the documentation ("this is
chapter 1", "this is chapter 1.2.2", etc).
> Since NSHelpManager lets you use any external app, you are not limited; if
> you can find a good one, then simply providing an app wrappper for the
> non-GNUstep app would make it easy for people to use it.
Yes using SimpleWebKit/Vespucci.app or a Firefox engine with wrapper
sounds good, but I did not find source code for the latter effort (even
though it was mentioned on list).
One fundamental difference of such app from a help viewer is ability to
show a list of available documentation, and to search it.
> It ought to be a fairly simple research project to see;
> a. if Apple have changed to use a new format (or added a new format so you
> can use both)
> b. If GNUstep-GUI has followed any change (normal policy is to try to retain
> support for old API/format while adding support for new ones introduced by
> Apple).
This could be interesting to do, but is out of my depth (I don't have a
Mac and don't know where to look for such information).
--
Svetlana A. Tkachenko
Member of the Free Software Foundation
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net
___
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Re: Questions
> Debian should perhaps ship them as doc packages ? Are you using debian > packages for GNUstep? Yes, I am. > I suppose you use the debian packaged version? Which one is it? https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=814564 I confirm that when I compile 0.6.2 by hand the crash is absent. Thank you. It is a Debian issue and I hope they can prioritise this bug. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Questions (was: Re: A Critique: Getting Started with GNUstep on Windows)
> It would make sense to use HTML as the viewable format,
There also needs to be a way to structure the documentation ("this is
chapter 1", "this is chapter 1.2.2", etc).
> Since NSHelpManager lets you use any external app, you are not limited; if
> you can find a good one, then simply providing an app wrappper for the
> non-GNUstep app would make it easy for people to use it.
Yes using SimpleWebKit/Vespucci.app or a Firefox engine with wrapper
sounds good,
but I did not find source code for the latter effort (even though it was
mentioned on list).
One fundamental difference of such app from a help viewer is ability to
show a list of available documentation, and to search it.
> It ought to be a fairly simple research project to see;
> a. if Apple have changed to use a new format (or added a new format so you
> can use both)
> b. If GNUstep-GUI has followed any change (normal policy is to try to retain
> support for old API/format while adding support for new ones introduced by
> Apple).
This could be interesting to do, but is out of my depth (I don't have a
Mac and don't know where to look for such information).
--
Svetlana A. Tkachenko
Member of the Free Software Foundation
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net
___
Discuss-gnustep mailing list
Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Questions (was: Re: A Critique: Getting Started with GNUstep on Windows)
Gregory Casamento wrote: > HelpViewer uses RTF format. Speaking of documentation I am of the > concerted opinion that we should do away with autogsdoc. The reason > for this is because it is yet another example of NIH. ... not invented here? I was under the assumption that it is using an XML format resembling something from Apple. I do not have knowledge of whether the existing parser is sufficiently advanced to keep it around, as I did not play with it much yet. One of included examples: ~/dev/HelpViewer-0.3/Examples/HelpViewer.help$ ls attention.png Bases.xlp Creation.xlp helpviewer-200.tiff Introduction.xlp Logo.tiff main.xlp note.png ToDo.xlp ~/dev/HelpViewer-0.3/Examples/HelpViewer.help $ cat main.xlp Aide en ligne de HelpViewer HelpViewer.app permet de visualiser l'aide en ligne des programmes GNUstep. (c) 2003 Nicolas Roard. Ce program est distribu▒ sous la GNU Public Licence (GPL). site : http://info.xdev.org/projets/helpviewer contact : mailto:[redacted by Svetlana - was nicolas roard com] ~/dev/HelpViewer-0.3/Examples/HelpViewer.help $ Gregory Casamento wrote: > There are > entire projects devoted to making beautiful documentation from > comments... we are not one of them. I agree but I do not know what format we would like to store documentation in. And in case of documentation from comments I do not understand how to deal with localization. Those are technical questions, but if we can agree on a format, we have a new well-defined TODO item: write support in a help viewer app. Could consider docbook as it is somewhat popular? Again someone more experienced than me would be more useful. Gregory Casamento wrote: > ProjectCenter needs a great deal of attention and work ProjectCenter.app does not crash when I compile its latest release by hand. It is a Debian problem now I think. This is why I am thinking of such a "pure" environment distribution, but that needs some thought about what is best for users to be able to edit a program or a package easily to create a local modified copy and experiment with it before suggesting a patch and then packaging a new release. Who knows, maybe one way is to try something that looks nice to me personally and find out whether it works well, without spending time speculating. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Wishlist
> Can we update the wishlist on wiki to add porting pavucontrol as a system > preferences module to the wishlist item for pulseaudio? pavucontrol > handles > device and volume selection for pulseaudio. > > Similarly add nm-applet under the wishlist item for network-manager. We > don't need to port the entirety of network-manager or pulseaudio, just > the > user facing frontends. Some of this was also discussed by you here: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/discuss-gnustep/2015-11/msg00209.html I've expanded this section from your words; anything missing now? http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/Application_wish_list#Desktop_settings If you have a user account on the wiki, please say its name. Or register: http://wiki.gnustep.org/wiki/Special:Userlogin Then you can be added to the writers group and get access to editing the wiki. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Debian 8 (Not really SOLVED)
> >> Actually I filed a bug report a about that a while ago [0], suggesting to > >> drop the dependency to a recommendation, but unfortunately that didn’t > >> elicit a response yet. > > > > Would we want to keep gnustep packages in both incarnations (GCC (the > > existing one) as well as clang). Since some users will probably still > > want the GCC version. > > There is no technical reason to prefer gcc to clang for Objective-C, and > I have no intention of arguing license philosophy. cclang's licence is fine to me. I was only reading GAP project's 'about' page and read about compatibility with different compilers as one of the goals. Not sure whether this is expected to affect the packaging in the 'leave both gcc and clang packages' way. Svetlana ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Debian 8 (Not really SOLVED)
> From the output that Svetlana has shown me, it also looks as if the > Debian clang packages are no longer able to find any headers. I don't remember specifics. Do you have the output still? > Actually I filed a bug report a about that a while ago [0], suggesting to > drop the dependency to a recommendation, but unfortunately that didn’t elicit > a response yet. Would we want to keep gnustep packages in both incarnations (GCC (the existing one) as well as clang). Since some users will probably still want the GCC version. Svetlana ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Debian 8 (Not really SOLVED)
> you will have to use the GNUstep runtime > [0] that is not currently packaged in Debian. > [0] https://www.github.com/gnustep/libobjc2 Could we please package [0] and switch Debian GNUstep packages from gcc to clang? -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Creating GSspell.service/Resources/Info-gnustep.plist... Segmentation fault (was: Re: Compiling with clang Linking library libgnustep-base ...)
> You MIGHT try something LIKE this: > sudo apt-get remove --purge gnustep-* I did. It didn't purge some, because they were already removed. I removed everything from ``find / -iname *gnustep*'' that was not in my home directory. I rebooted. I did make clean and make uninstall. And followed the guide again. But I still get the same error message. Odd. If there is no other suggestions, I will proceed to format a partition and do a clean install of Debian there. Without any GNUstep packages. And compile it from scratch there. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Compiling with clang Linking library libgnustep-base ...
Following http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/GNUstep_SVN_installation_guide Makefile package compiled without errors Base/Foundation Library compiles with the error below: GSFFIInvocation.m:69:1: warning: unused function 'gs_method_for_receiver_and_selector' [-Wunused-function] gs_method_for_receiver_and_selector (id receiver, SEL sel) ^ 1 warning generated. Linking library libgnustep-base ... /usr/bin/ld: /usr/bin/../lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/5.3.1/crtbeginS.o: нераспознанное перемещение (0x2a) в разделе «.text» /usr/bin/ld: final link failed: Некорректное значение clang: error: linker command failed with exit code 1 (use -v to see invocation) /usr/local/share/GNUstep/Makefiles/Instance/library.make:292: ошибка выполнения рецепта для цели «obj/libgnustep-base.so.1.24.8» make[4]: *** [obj/libgnustep-base.so.1.24.8] Ошибка 1 /usr/local/share/GNUstep/Makefiles/Instance/library.make:277: ошибка выполнения рецепта для цели «internal-library-all_» make[3]: *** [internal-library-all_] Ошибка 2 /usr/local/share/GNUstep/Makefiles/Master/rules.make:311: ошибка выполнения рецепта для цели «libgnustep-base.all.library.variables» make[2]: *** [libgnustep-base.all.library.variables] Ошибка 2 /usr/local/share/GNUstep/Makefiles/Master/library.make:37: ошибка выполнения рецепта для цели «internal-all» make[1]: *** [internal-all] Ошибка 2 /usr/local/share/GNUstep/Makefiles/Master/serial-subdirectories.make:53: ошибка выполнения рецепта для цели «internal-all» make: *** [internal-all] Ошибка 2 gs@laptop:~/core/base$ tail ~/.bashrc export CC=clang export CXX=clang++ export OBJC=clang . /usr/local/share/GNUstep/Makefiles/GNUstep.sh gs@laptop:~/core/base$ How do I understand this, please? -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Creating GSspell.service/Resources/Info-gnustep.plist... Segmentation fault (was: Re: Compiling with clang Linking library libgnustep-base ...)
> Resolution in both cases has been "we'll deploy upgraded binutils into > Debian testing", so check that your system is fully up to date. Thank you, upgrading worked. It is ld 2.25.90.20160101 and clang compiler. I had a lot of old stuff so I can't tell which one fixed it. Now Base/Foundation Library compiled OK. Now when compiling GUI/AppKit Library I get this error: Creating GSspell.service/Resources/Info-gnustep.plist... Segmentation fault /usr/local/share/GNUstep/Makefiles/Instance/service.make:141: recipe for target 'GSspell.service/Resources/Info-gnustep.plist' failed make[3]: *** [GSspell.service/Resources/Info-gnustep.plist] Error 1 /usr/local/share/GNUstep/Makefiles/Master/rules.make:311: recipe for target 'GSspell.all.service.variables' failed make[2]: *** [GSspell.all.service.variables] Error 2 /usr/local/share/GNUstep/Makefiles/Master/service.make:37: recipe for target 'internal-all' failed make[1]: *** [internal-all] Error 2 /usr/local/share/GNUstep/Makefiles/Master/serial-subdirectories.make:53: recipe for target 'internal-all' failed make: *** [internal-all] Error 2 gs@laptop:~/core/gui$ -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Savannah vs. Gitlab
Ivan Vučica <i...@vucica.net> wrote: > I will avoid responding to this thread further, and I will minimize the > size of this response. > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 4:00 AM, Svetlana A. Tkachenko < > svetl...@members.fsf.org> wrote: > > > > I'd note that GitHub's code review tools are... wanting, and at the > > > Dublin > > > meeting we have generally agreed that use of any such code review tool > > > would be optional. > > > > I am glad you are paying attention to the code review facilities. I do > > not understand the last statement about Dublin. Why optional? > > > > There would probably be large, but unnecessary delays when reviewing > contributions by current contributors. > > > > > > Ivan Vučica wrote: > > > > Continuing to mention GitHub in this thread is a waste of time. > > > > > > > > > Svetlana, do you believe that statement projects an appropriate attitude? > > > > Where we are considering moving to something new and official, it is > > indeed a waste of time (if you find this phrase derogatory, please tell > > me another, as in my native language it is not). > > > > The point is: the decision is not really up to you or me. > > I do find it curious that you believe you get to decide which topic is a > waste of time for the entire list. :-) > > I am, for example, choosing that my participation in this thread of > discussion does not help. I was suggesting the same as an opinion. That is: "hi all, I think that talking about this further does not help". I suppose the lack of "I think" sets people off in some cases, perhaps rightfully so ... > > > You are very restrictive in offering options: Subversion on Gna! which > > > happens to be uni-directionally synced to github; or Git on Savannah. > > > > > > Do you truly consider those the only options? > > > > This bit is my personal opinion. > > > > So it is. :-) > > Do consider: could there be other options, too? > > Perhaps some of these other options are also more appropriate for a > project > that has its own domain? I don't know, here is that paragraph again: > Continuing to mention GitHub in this thread is a waste of time. If > needed, there has to be a separate conversation about writing a sync > script of "something" with GitHub after the "something" is decided (be > it leaving things as is or moving to savannah+git, if needed). Possibly > leave it as git + savannah since a GitHub mirror and proper > communication with the GNU team at Savannah already solves some of the > original problems. I really did not mean this much harm as I saw in responses when writing it. I meant that 1) as far as I can see GitHub things are separate from decision being discussed - this thought is reasonable, right? it is so because github can't be the official place and syncing to it is a separate technical questions. yet several people keep jumping in and saying 'github is the best', 'what is the eta', and so on. in my view this is harming the discussion. I was just pointing that out without intending to be arrogant or dictating. The amount of ignorance and hostility I got in response to this was astonishing. 2) savannah issues are miscommunication and they can be, gradually, solved by adding more helpers there and establishing the necessary communication and tools. there is no need to outright reject it as unfixable forever. 3) i did not say it, and it was my mistake, that i do not mind other free options, but in my view they offer no advantage compared to staying at savannah, and i am ready to this view being challenged if needed and i would be interested to learn the motivations behind moving away from it so that i can help with either improving savannah or suggesting where to go 3.1) so far it is just the sign-off, there is an online form some countries need it done by paper, i understand it is done by each contributor once only, and in my view it is a small thing compared to getting the newcomers started with the codebase and getting them to write the patches, it's not a kill by the time they reach the entrance door (they get to stay for a few days/hours/weeks and learn things) nor a thing that makes people uncomfortable regarding remaining on the project after they did the initial learning for their first patch 3.2) also the code review, but i have no idea how it was done in the past or how to approach it; mozilla/chatzilla review code by submitting patch files to bugzilla and typing comments there and i was using this approach and it worked just fine, as would savannah's patch section or email for that basic level of functionality. if more is needed i would like to know what it is - this is not an
Re: Savannah vs. Gitlab
> did you mean the unknown scripts running on Github's servers making up > their web site? No. Backend = software GitHub runs on its servers. Whether it's free or not is up to them. The burden of running proprietary software there is on them. Frontend = the things we download and render in our web browsers. It has been established among GNU project that all scripts users run need to be free. It is not ethical to publish non-free scripts on the web. But GitHub does that. (There is this question of whether the HTML markup also needs to be free. I think yes. I have not got a second opinion on this, though, and it is another can of worms.) > The word "frontend" would be the word Ivan and me have misunderstood: > the "computer in front of you" = the web browser / client running > JavaScripts. Think of it as of a TV. The movie you see is the front. The wires are at the back. > I learned ~1 year ago that there is an FSF initiative (license? I don't > know the > right word) that all software running on a web server must also be open > source > to be considered "free speech". It may, but it is not your primary concern: you are just a user. The bigger concern is what is running on your web client (i.e. in your own browser). For this reason I use and recommend LibreJS: https://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/ -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Savannah vs. Gitlab
> just the need to do a snail mail round-trip with FSF to be allowed to > contribute is a great obstacle for any FSF project. I do not know about gnu projects, but for translationproject I was made to do the sign off using an online form. This is much easier. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Savannah vs. Gitlab
http://translationproject.org/html/whydisclaim.html https://crm.fsf.org/civicrm/profile/create?gid=91=1 -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net "Svetlana A. Tkachenko" <svetl...@members.fsf.org> wrote: > > just the need to do a snail mail round-trip with FSF to be allowed to > > contribute is a great obstacle for any FSF project. > > I do not know about gnu projects, but for translationproject I was made > to do the sign off using an online form. This is much easier. > > -- > Svetlana A. Tkachenko > Member of the Free Software Foundation > www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net > > ___ > Discuss-gnustep mailing list > Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Plans for ahead
> Now as a desktop user who would like to run GUNstep full time, I have to ask, > has anyone actually started making chromium embedded embed into a gnustep > window? > I used Mantella in the past and I was happy with it. Mantella was this exact > idea with firefox. Unfortunately the interface to firefox they used was > deprecated. About "embedding" Chromium or Firefox - I do not mind embedding the stuff rendered by the engine (WebKit/Gecko), but I would not, as a matter of personal preference, recommend to port over the Chromium's or Firefox's interface. For UX consistency I would prefer the interface to be in GNUStep things. I hope we are getting there one way or another. :) -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Savannah vs. Gitlab
> Gitlab is OPEN SOURCE. :) It is not proprietary. 1) It does not label its frontend's JavaScript with the licenses (C0.0). 2) Gitlab links to about.gitlab.com which sells a proprietary product. The free GitLab version is bait-and-switch for their so-called enterprise version which is proprietary software. 3) GitLab does not encourage submissions which are freely licensed (C5). I might suggest things from this list: - http://savannah.gnu.org/maintenance/WhyChooseSavannah/ - repo.or.cz, can create new repo without review, but no issue tracker - Redmine has issue tracker and source code hosting and wiki (but not multilingual afaik, maybe with a plugin) - ... (you pick) -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Savannah vs. Gitlab
> *facepalms* I just don't think joining the savannah-hacker team will > help. If it helps with the evaluation times, what else is needed? As an option, we could switch from svn to git and stay at Savannah. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Swift is now open source (Apache 2 License)
> Maybe abandon the Savannah ship entirely and migrate to Github? I oppose GitHub. It is proprietary software. I do not have an account there and would be unable to contribute. I think Savannah supports git. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Swift is now open source (Apache 2 License)
> GitHub still uses Git, which is open source. > The rest is just a website. Do you require the backend source code for > every website you visit? The burden of using proprietary backend is on them. The GitHub frontend is proprietary. I use LibreJS and when I open a user's page at GitHub, the contributions chart doesn't load, for example. When I found this, I closed the site and did not use it. More information: - https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html - http://web.archive.org/web/20150421174818/http://libreboot.org/github/ -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Swift is now open source (Apache 2 License)
Alessandro Sangiuliano <a01000...@gmail.com> wrote: > Please stop with this useless war, that is dangerous just to the > free/open source world, for sure not to the proprietary world; fanaticism > is ever bad. OK, I won't send any more comments to the list on this subject. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Swift is now open source (Apache 2 License)
I apologize, I think I have to share one more thing: the GNU repository criteria. https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria.html I think that C0.0 or C5 are not met, thus rendering GitHub unacceptable as a hosting platform for a GNU project such as GNUStep. If we have questions about it, please query the repo-criteria-disc...@gnu.org address. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Savannah vs. Gitlab
Thanks, Gregory. Is there a way we can volunteer for the 'gnu evaluation team' for Savannah so that the requests do not get stuck? http://savannah.gnu.org/maintenance/HowToBecomeASavannahHacker/ I would be glad to spend time approving various projects if this role is not restricted to the FSF staff. I think GitHub and GitLab are not acceptable. They are proprietary frontends, they do not encourage freely licensed submissions, and GitLab links its users to a proprietary product. We may need to ask the FSF about whether we can do this - to avoid the need to move twice. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Incremental adoption path
David Chisnall wrote: > One thing that I have learned, from Étoilé and other projects, is that > you are almost guaranteed to fail if you do not have an incremental > adoption path. I do not know what we think from the engineering perspective, but from my personal experience attempts to theme programs so that they look 'pretty' on another desktop has caused a large number of people to think that 'linux desktop' is a collection of garbage that someone put together on one table. Even if the buttons are styled correctly, the UX remains inconsistent. This is the case with all of my relatives who tried Linux as a desktop system - they all went away from it in dislike, or they went into one specific 'pure' desktop. None of them liked the mixed desktop thing. One app had a button here, another had a button in another place. One had integration with file manager but another one did not. It was outright plainly worse for them than what they had before with their Windows and Macs. I can't tell about users migrating from GNOME (they already like it as is and I think that like me, they would either stay with gnome or go to gnustep completely (I did the latter because I already know how to do network managing and displays stuff and input layout stuff from the command line)). There are a few things I would suggest to make a 'one-step switch to gnustep' easier for users: * Set up a page on the wiki where we lists TODO tasks (like the Application wishlist) and potential mentors, and attract more people from the Google Summer of Code. They would probably be good at doing the needed effort as discussed earlier (xrandr interface, network manager interface, I would add input layout setup pane, the web browser, improving the pdf program for multi-page support, and so on). I do not remember anyone coming from the last year GSoC, and I do not know why. * Another question is writing of documentation. Each program on Windows or Mac has a thorough documentation in its help menu, in any language. With GNUstep this is not always the case. ** I am writing a new tiny program as an exercise and I do not know how to add help files to it. If someone could help with this, it would be nice. ** I also need a proper instructions regarding a developer-friendly GNUStep environment in which I can easily add documentation or documentation translations for existing apps. What do you guys use? I use Debian but I do not know how to package for it and if I want to add new things to existing gnustep programs then I probably need to run a non-packaged version, but I do not know of an organized way to do it. *** This includes developer documentation in HelpViewer.app. I ran wget on gnustep.org and/or gnustep.it and the like, but I think that having it in HelpViewer would make things a lot easier. The HelpViewer that comes with Debian comes with no documentation in it and is just empty and I do not know how to fill it. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Plans for ahead
> Window maker sucks, it does not play nice with gnome/kde apps, its too > outdated I guess it does not follow the open desktop standards.. I do not know about standards, but wmaker has been the nicest window manager I used thus far. I do not want to put effort into changing it just for the sake of singing along with gnome or kde nicely. I wrote a new thread on this list about this question. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Plans for ahead
> I absolutely want "our" menus, they are distinctive and useful and if I > were to make a reference distribution, I'd want to retain that. Please do not call it 'reference' distribution. GNUStep is a GNU project and I believe it can not endorse a proprietary distribution. Could call it piStep or piOS. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Plans for ahead
Thank you, Gregory. I suppose it was the wording that caused confusion -- and me not being at the meeting! :) As long as it's not an official effort, whether you use a proprietary platform or not is up to you. I agree that getting more users is important for us. Thank you all. (Another thing that came to my mind was a proper free desktop distribution that focuses on packaging GNUStep stuff and not programs written for other UI toolkits (this is very rare for any Linux distributions to discourage users from running programs written for another desktop) but that's subject for a separate discussion...) -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Plans for ahead
> In this case I think you are wrong. No one has endorsed the OS that they > are considering creating as "the official" GNUstep operating system. Ok, thanks for clarifying. I was going by phrasing like "Build an authentic NeXTStep feeling GNUStep OS". If it is not official, it should be called "an OS with GNUStep on it", "GNUStep-enabled OS", etc. The phrase "GNUStep OS" made me think it was something official. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Plans for ahead
(And by phrasing like "reference OS" -- if GNUStep has a "reference OS", it is something official, and in my view it can not be proprietary. We might have to call it something else, not "reference" OS. Perhaps create a name, i.e. a blend of words GNUStep and Raspberri, and use that.) -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Plans for ahead
> I see no reason to suddenly make > this even more restrictive and demand that free software run ONLY on > free hardware. As I understand this is a discussion about "the" "official" GNUStep OS. I do not mind it if GNUstep is capable of running on non-free hardware. But we should not officially recommend users to do so. Right? -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Plans for ahead
> 1. Build an authentic NeXTStep feeling GNUStep OS. However - we don't > want it to simulate things that were restrictive i.e authentic in ways > that > mean simulating things you "couldn't do" in NeXTStep/OpenStep. Blend in > with Raspbian is a winning idea I think, happy to hear other suggestions > though. In my view we should not do anything regarding Raspbian, because it includes non-free components. To quote https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/single-board-computers : > The Raspberry Pi requires nonfree software to start up. It can't reach the > point of executing free software unless this nonfree program is part of the > installed system software. > > The startup program is, in fact, the same program that runs the GPU and the > video decoding hardware. Thus, the GPU and the video decoding hardware are > unusable in the free world, but these jobs can be done with free software on > the CPU. > > That program appears to implement intentional restrictions, such as blocking > the video decoding hardware for MPEG-2 and VC-1 in the absence of a key that > is specific to the machine in hand. This nonfree startup program affects both > models of the Raspberry Pi. Hope it helps. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Plans for ahead
Hi, Interesting idea, I hope I got it right: Would using linux-libre for "the" GNUstep (or NeXtStep) OS be appropriate? Could base it on one of these: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: NeXT GNU Homage Project Work
I would not recommend to use Google or LinkedIn. Both of these sites run proprietary scripts. Mailman does not. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Google Summer of Code 2016
Here the semester is about to end on November 21 2015 and all students will have a break until Feb 15 2016. I do not know whether I may ask the Computer Science school to circulate an email asking whether any students would like to pick on http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/Application_wish_list or similar for the GSOC 2016 as 1) I am from another school and from another faculty, and 2) they wouldn't understand why I'm trying to ask about GNUstep specifically and not about something else (there will be a list of lots of other interesting projects at GSOC). If someone can think of a way to write a message which gets past the second trouble then I could try to get in touch with the school and see whether they would like to pass it on. I have no experience doing such things so any insight into how to best do it would be appreciated (including non-email means). -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Google Summer of Code 2016
> Summer of Code 2016 has been announced > > http://arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2015/10/vw-responds-to-diesel-scandal-says-the-future-is-electric/ The URL looks unrelated. Is this a mis-paste? -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Debian and Ubuntu packages - 2015/06/03
> I would like to get some suggestion on how to manage my gnustep > installation on Ubuntu 12.04 (i386). I notice (several months ago) > that there aren't those packages any more, and I wander if there is a > way to use one of the debian package set instead, or I have to switch > to an svn/self compiled installation. I have the same question. Has anyone asked Debian-GNUstep team to use the present scripts to package clang compiled version of GNUstep and its packages? Svetlana ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
How to mirror the sites (was: Re: Beginner developer documentation)
How may I mirror gnustep.org and gnustep.it for offline use? There is plenty of resources available, and I would like to have it locally to be able to see the resources available more clearly and to move things around. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Beginner developer documentation
Hi all, Found the GORM and AppKit reference manuals, but both appear to have not very many exercises/problem sets. Something simple such as an arithmetic operation by a button click, with example solution (for some exercises at least) to compare with. Thus far I can easily use GORM to design the window layout, but I am stuck trying to learn where and how and what to program even for simple things. If possible, please suggest more documentation with "2+2=4" level examples. I did find http://www.gnustep.org/experience/examples.html but that is way beyond my level. Some current questions: - where do things go (into which files) - how do get things programmatically (input box values and so on) - how to do anything network related - tiny examples to get used to the language and the project architecture I had also tried to figure out how to put the documentation from http://www.gnustep.org/resources/documentation/ , man pages and /usr/share/doc/$package-name/* into HelpViewer.app for offline use, but did not get anywhere as I did not understand what format it needs or which location to put the files in. -- Svetlana A. Tkachenko Member of the Free Software Foundation www.fsf.org www.gnu.org www.freenode.net ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Debian and Ubuntu packages - 2015/06/03
These things are largely obvious and useless, as talking about them is easier than doing them... Riccardo Mottola wrote: As Philippe wrote: packaging is a non-rewarding, terrible job. Debian Packages are already quite debatable due to packaging choices that were imposed (the way they are split up and packaged, for example). Making things even more difficult because of a compiler switch would be unwise. I think (may be wrong) that this is about as hard as adding clang as a dependency, and writing a clang makefile instead of gcc makefile. Not much of a pain in the end, but much pain initially because of the need to go through all packages and making sure that they compile and work correctly. Riccardo Mottola wrote: The best would be of course if code could co-operate, since at one point certain applications will require clang: people write code for its features. What then? This already is the case, as all Etoile apps are oriented towards clang since at least around 2009 from what I could see. People who would like to use these apps end up having no source of tested .deb packages. Unless my understanding is wrong we could give the scripts to the Debian people (http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/pkg-gnustep-maintainers) for them to begin the move from gcc to clang. There is a http://www.aiei.ch/gnustep/ project but it hosts its repos somewhere else if I'm not mistaken and I do not see a reason to not rely on the debian repositories. -- Svetlana ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Debian and Ubuntu packages - 2015/06/03
should write on the Debian mailing list, asking for the possibilities to build gnustep and related software with clang. If the people on this list find clang-ish GNUstep an ok idea, then I agree that a move in this direction is desirable. Maybe not to the Debian list but to the current maintainers of these packages (such as Yavor mentioned in the last message). Svetlana ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Debian and Ubuntu packages - 2015/06/03
If there is no objections then I can link to this thread and propose the compiler change at this list: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/pkg-gnustep-maintainers Svetlana ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Debian and Ubuntu packages - 2015/06/03
you would like to add another package StepChat Like much of Etoile stuff, I understand that StepChat must be compiled with clang and requires a clang-compiled GNUstep, and I would like to see all this stuff in Debian someday (I am still in the process of working out how they may handle it without breaking the rest of their system). This may be a dumb question, but would we be okay if Debian started compiling _all_ GNUstep packages with clang instead of gcc, or would we prefer if they had both clang and gcc packages? Svetlana ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Debian and Ubuntu packages - 2015/06/03
Thanks. Would like to add netclasses and talksoup. Svetlana ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Debian and Ubuntu packages - 2015/06/03
Oh, and my understanding is that Debian's gnustep-* packages are compiled using gcc. Am I wrong? If not, then how may this valuable set of packages compiled with clang be put into the main Debian repositories? Svetlana ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Microsoft is working on iOS SDK for Windows 10 apps
On the other hand, I find it very frustrating to see how fast they implemented something that we have been working on for years. I believe ours has an advantage of being released properly unless I missed their stuff being copyleft and being able to run outside of the Windows platform. Svetlana ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
