Re: [ACFUG Discuss] ???...Model Glue, Frame Work Etc...???
Dean makes an excellent point.. my actual example for a methodology was not all that great, but it was moving in the right direction. It is still a very good distinction to make as these things come up a lot. So to be clear.. a methodology is not really as concrete or encompassing as a standard but is more like a set of best practices on how you do something that get lumped together to form a methodology. Some of the time these practices are followed in a particular order as in method B comes after method A etc . They are just methods of doing something. Oh and thanks Dean, I knew I would pique someone as I knew that I was playing a little loose with terms myself (to make a point) ;-) JeremyOn 6/24/06, Dean H. Saxe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Actually, Jeremy, how you do secure encryption would be a standard. I know you and I often use the terms interchangeably on the project we're currently on, but standard is the proper term for prescriptive definitions of how to do XYZ. Standards represent the concrete implementation of policies which are high level advice on what should be done. Standards are followed explicitly. Guidelines are general advice on how to implement a policy, but they need not be followed explicitly.Sorry, just had to bust your butt on that. ;-) You can thank me later. -dhs Dean H. Saxe, CISSP, CEH [EMAIL PROTECTED] "[U] nconstitutional behavior by the authorities is constrained only by the peoples' willingness to contest them " --John Perry Barlow Find out about my Hike for Discovery at www.fullfrontalnerdity.com/hfd On Jun 24, 2006, at 6:04 PM, Jeremy Allen wrote:Well.. a framework is different from a methodology. A framework is a reusable set of components that help you achieve a certain design. When using a framework it contributes greatly to your overall software architecture and design. So a framework by itself is NOT a methodology. A methodology is just a set of rules and a way of doing things for a particular thing. You may use a framework as a part of a methodology I really dislike playing fast and loose with terms. So frameworks and methodologies are really quite different things. Ever since Fusebox started calling itself a methodology CF developers have been getting this mixed up. When we say framework we mean something like Struts, or Model-Glue or Hibernate. When we say a methodology we mean something like the scientific method. Like a secure encryption algorithm coding methodology would be a set of rules you would follow to help properly implement an encryption algorithm. So a methodology is HOW you might do something or how you did something. A methodology NOT a concrete implementation of a design pattern in the form of a reusable set of components that other developers can reuse. One other thing. Model Glue is NOT an application. It is a framework. It is a simplification to call MG an application. I will save the long explanation for what Visual Studio is and keep it simple: Visual Studio is a set of software development tools (an integrated development environment). It integrates your editing environment and your compilers and your deployment software into one relatively slick interface. Now the .NET *FRAMEWORK*, ASP.NET and the technologies that Visual Studio allows you to work with.. those are different beasts entirely. I will save the long discussion on those for another time. It is important to use these terms properly so that the CF community stays in step with the rest of the software development world in my opinion. This treads on the academic and pedantic for some, but when someone specifically asks about frameworks it is disingenuous to lump terms so broadly. So a good answer to that question is that a framework is a set of reusable components designed to help you achieve a certain design and architecture in your software. In this case Mach-II and Model-Glue et al are implementations of the Model View Controller design pattern. The benefits of MVC and frameworks that allow you to use this design pattern in your software architecture are well known. They include the separation of your display (view) code and your core business logic. This enables your program to grow more rapidly with less maintenance headaches across time. The only real caveat is that you have to understand the framework and the underlying design pattern to an extent or you will only end up making things harder on yourself at first. I recommend a basic understanding of CFCs before venturing into the CF framework land. OK. I answered the main questions here. Only keep reading if you want to read my long winded explanation of what I think about frameworks and why they should be used. So of course, you don't need a framework. But it is almost guaranteed that you will fall into some pattern when you start developing your software. You will deal with adding a record a certain way. You will deal with deleting a record a certain way. You will repeat this pattern across your web
Re: [ACFUG Discuss] ???...Model Glue, Frame Work Etc...???
Well.. a framework is different from a methodology. A framework is a reusable set of components that help you achieve a certain design. When using a framework it contributes greatly to your overall software architecture and design. So a framework by itself is NOT a methodology. A methodology is just a set of rules and a way of doing things for a particular thing. You may use a framework as a part of a methodology I really dislike playing fast and loose with terms. So frameworks and methodologies are really quite different things. Ever since Fusebox started calling itself a methodology CF developers have been getting this mixed up. When we say framework we mean something like Struts, or Model-Glue or Hibernate. When we say a methodology we mean something like the scientific method. Like a secure encryption algorithm coding methodology would be a set of rules you would follow to help properly implement an encryption algorithm. So a methodology is HOW you might do something or how you did something. A methodology NOT a concrete implementation of a design pattern in the form of a reusable set of components that other developers can reuse. One other thing. Model Glue is NOT an application. It is a framework. It is a simplification to call MG an application. I will save the long explanation for what Visual Studio is and keep it simple: Visual Studio is a set of software development tools (an integrated development environment). It integrates your editing environment and your compilers and your deployment software into one relatively slick interface. Now the .NET *FRAMEWORK*, ASP.NET and the technologies that Visual Studio allows you to work with.. those are different beasts entirely. I will save the long discussion on those for another time. It is important to use these terms properly so that the CF community stays in step with the rest of the software development world in my opinion. This treads on the academic and pedantic for some, but when someone specifically asks about frameworks it is disingenuous to lump terms so broadly. So a good answer to that question is that a framework is a set of reusable components designed to help you achieve a certain design and architecture in your software. In this case Mach-II and Model-Glue et al are implementations of the Model View Controller design pattern. The benefits of MVC and frameworks that allow you to use this design pattern in your software architecture are well known. They include the separation of your display (view) code and your core business logic. This enables your program to grow more rapidly with less maintenance headaches across time. The only real caveat is that you have to understand the framework and the underlying design pattern to an extent or you will only end up making things harder on yourself at first. I recommend a basic understanding of CFCs before venturing into the CF framework land. OK. I answered the main questions here. Only keep reading if you want to read my long winded explanation of what I think about frameworks and why they should be used. So of course, you don't need a framework. But it is almost guaranteed that you will fall into some pattern when you start developing your software. You will deal with adding a record a certain way. You will deal with deleting a record a certain way. You will repeat this pattern across your web application and each of the components in the web application. You will be treading ground thousands upon thousands of developers have tread before. These frameworks represent software developers standing on the shoulders of those that come before us in terms of experience and knowledge. This store of knowledge in terms of design patterns and hard won experience should not be easily discarded. These frameworks exist because developers do the same things over and over. Formalizing these repeated patterns into a set of reusable components, in aggregate, save tons and tons of time. That is kind of the whole point of design patterns and implementing them. So do you need frameworks? Nope. Yes you should understand the underlying concepts and how to deal with the frameworks. You should understand the underlying principles of their use. You should not reinvent the wheel (unless you are dying to for academic purposes). Denying the use of a framework when you have the experience to use it and a perfect situation for it is downright silly. This is an extreme example that follows, but it is fun to put things into the context of the history of software. After all that is why we use ColdFusion. JJ Allaire and the gang way back when implemented CF Server it in C++. Somewhere along the way folks that knew assembler wrote the first C compilers (which were used to implement C++ compilers). And someone somewhere implemented the first assemblers in machine code. You don't see many people saying you should learn machine code to implement an assembler to create a C like language to create a Java Virtual machine so you
Re: [ACFUG Discuss] ???...Model Glue, Frame Work Etc...???
Actually, Jeremy, how you do secure encryption would be a standard. I know you and I often use the terms interchangeably on the project we're currently on, but standard is the proper term for prescriptive definitions of how to do XYZ. Standards represent the concrete implementation of policies which are high level advice on what should be done. Standards are followed explicitly. Guidelines are general advice on how to implement a policy, but they need not be followed explicitly.Sorry, just had to bust your butt on that. ;-) You can thank me later. -dhs Dean H. Saxe, CISSP, CEH[EMAIL PROTECTED]"[U]nconstitutional behavior by the authorities is constrained only by the peoples' willingness to contest them" --John Perry BarlowFind out about my Hike for Discovery at www.fullfrontalnerdity.com/hfd On Jun 24, 2006, at 6:04 PM, Jeremy Allen wrote:Well.. a framework is different from a methodology. A framework is a reusable set of components that help you achieve a certain design. When using a framework it contributes greatly to your overall software architecture and design. So a framework by itself is NOT a methodology. A methodology is just a set of rules and a way of doing things for a particular thing. You may use a framework as a part of a methodology I really dislike playing fast and loose with terms. So frameworks and methodologies are really quite different things. Ever since Fusebox started calling itself a methodology CF developers have been getting this mixed up. When we say framework we mean something like Struts, or Model-Glue or Hibernate. When we say a methodology we mean something like the scientific method. Like a secure encryption algorithm coding methodology would be a set of rules you would follow to help properly implement an encryption algorithm. So a methodology is HOW you might do something or how you did something. A methodology NOT a concrete implementation of a design pattern in the form of a reusable set of components that other developers can reuse. One other thing. Model Glue is NOT an application. It is a framework. It is a simplification to call MG an application. I will save the long explanation for what Visual Studio is and keep it simple: Visual Studio is a set of software development tools (an integrated development environment). It integrates your editing environment and your compilers and your deployment software into one relatively slick interface. Now the .NET *FRAMEWORK*, ASP.NET and the technologies that Visual Studio allows you to work with.. those are different beasts entirely. I will save the long discussion on those for another time. It is important to use these terms properly so that the CF community stays in step with the rest of the software development world in my opinion. This treads on the academic and pedantic for some, but when someone specifically asks about frameworks it is disingenuous to lump terms so broadly. So a good answer to that question is that a framework is a set of reusable components designed to help you achieve a certain design and architecture in your software. In this case Mach-II and Model-Glue et al are implementations of the Model View Controller design pattern. The benefits of MVC and frameworks that allow you to use this design pattern in your software architecture are well known. They include the separation of your display (view) code and your core business logic. This enables your program to grow more rapidly with less maintenance headaches across time. The only real caveat is that you have to understand the framework and the underlying design pattern to an extent or you will only end up making things harder on yourself at first. I recommend a basic understanding of CFCs before venturing into the CF framework land. OK. I answered the main questions here. Only keep reading if you want to read my long winded explanation of what I think about frameworks and why they should be used. So of course, you don't need a framework. But it is almost guaranteed that you will fall into some pattern when you start developing your software. You will deal with adding a record a certain way. You will deal with deleting a record a certain way. You will repeat this pattern across your web application and each of the components in the web application. You will be treading ground thousands upon thousands of developers have tread before. These frameworks represent software developers standing on the shoulders of those that come before us in terms of experience and knowledge. This store of knowledge in terms of design patterns and hard won experience should not be easily discarded. These frameworks exist because developers do the same things over and over. Formalizing these repeated patterns into a set of reusable components, in aggregate, save tons and tons of time. That is kind of the whole point of design patterns and implementing them. So do you need frameworks? Nope. Yes you should understand the underlying concepts and how to deal with th
[ACFUG Discuss] Re: Who's going to CFUnited?
for sure... most people going their own directions at night so its much easier to get folks tofether at lunch. I didn't even look, are they serving lunch for us? if so we can just agree to find a table together and make that our lunch so we all know who each other are and look like when we bump into each other during the rest of conf... On 6/24/06, John Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: CF_Lunch in Washington :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cameron Childress Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 2:11 PM To: discussion@acfug.org Subject: [ACFUG Discuss] Re: Who's going to CFUnited? I'm gonna be there too, tues through sunday. we should all try to do a lunch together or something. On 6/23/06, Howard Fore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yep, I"m going. I decided to bring the wife and new baby and then stay > a couple of days to see the 4th of July fireworks from the Mall. > > On 6/23/06, Sam Singer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Just curious, I'm headed out to CFUnited on Tuesday. I know that Howard > > won the free registration at the last meeting. Any other of you CFers > > going to make the trip? > > > > -- > Howard Fore, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > "Gliddy glub gloopy / Nibby nabby noopy / La la la lo lo / Sabba sibby > sabba / Nooby abba nabba / Le le lo lo / Tooby ooby walla / Nooby abba > naba / Early morning singing song" - Good Morning Starshine > > > - > To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ > http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform > > For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists > Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ > List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com > - > > > > -- Cameron Childress Sumo Consulting Inc http://www.sumoc.com --- cell: 678.637.5072 aim: cameroncf email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com - - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com - -- Cameron Childress Sumo Consulting Inc http://www.sumoc.com --- cell: 678.637.5072 aim: cameroncf email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com -
RE: [ACFUG Discuss] Re: Who's going to CFUnited?
CF_Lunch in Washington :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cameron Childress Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 2:11 PM To: discussion@acfug.org Subject: [ACFUG Discuss] Re: Who's going to CFUnited? I'm gonna be there too, tues through sunday. we should all try to do a lunch together or something. On 6/23/06, Howard Fore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yep, I"m going. I decided to bring the wife and new baby and then stay > a couple of days to see the 4th of July fireworks from the Mall. > > On 6/23/06, Sam Singer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Just curious, I'm headed out to CFUnited on Tuesday. I know that Howard > > won the free registration at the last meeting. Any other of you CFers > > going to make the trip? > > > > -- > Howard Fore, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > "Gliddy glub gloopy / Nibby nabby noopy / La la la lo lo / Sabba sibby > sabba / Nooby abba nabba / Le le lo lo / Tooby ooby walla / Nooby abba > naba / Early morning singing song" - Good Morning Starshine > > > - > To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ > http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform > > For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists > Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ > List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com > - > > > > -- Cameron Childress Sumo Consulting Inc http://www.sumoc.com --- cell: 678.637.5072 aim: cameroncf email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com - - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com -
[ACFUG Discuss] Re: Who's going to CFUnited?
I'm gonna be there too, tues through sunday. we should all try to do a lunch together or something. On 6/23/06, Howard Fore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yep, I"m going. I decided to bring the wife and new baby and then stay a couple of days to see the 4th of July fireworks from the Mall. On 6/23/06, Sam Singer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Just curious, I'm headed out to CFUnited on Tuesday. I know that Howard > won the free registration at the last meeting. Any other of you CFers > going to make the trip? > -- Howard Fore, [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Gliddy glub gloopy / Nibby nabby noopy / La la la lo lo / Sabba sibby sabba / Nooby abba nabba / Le le lo lo / Tooby ooby walla / Nooby abba naba / Early morning singing song" - Good Morning Starshine - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com - -- Cameron Childress Sumo Consulting Inc http://www.sumoc.com --- cell: 678.637.5072 aim: cameroncf email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com -
