RE: [ACFUG Discuss] Spawning threads in Coldfusion: making my webapp run faster
Each request is another processing task, maybe not necessarily a thread, thrown at the processor. So, in this sense, they are somewhat synonymous, but the point remains the same. I think until CF8 and the cfthread tag, the best chance for processing like this is the async gateway, if you have cf enteprise. ap -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Mason Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 12:08 AM To: discussion@acfug.org Subject: RE: [ACFUG Discuss] Spawning threads in Coldfusion: making my webapp run faster You may be confusing threads with requests. Threads are related to java and requests are related to the http protocol. Threads http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/java/lang/Thread.html Requests http://livedocs.macromedia.com/coldfusion/6.1/htmldocs/i18n13.htm Two very different things. I've never like that recommendation from Macromedia/Adobe. 3-5 concurrent requests per processor really ignores the speed and capability of the processors in question. For example, a dual processor P3 machine will naturally have a much lower request limit that it can safely handle versus a dual core zeon processor. It also depends on what the requests are asking CF to do. John [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 11:39 PM To: discussion@acfug.org Subject: RE: [ACFUG Discuss] Spawning threads in Coldfusion: making my webapp run faster When doing this, keep an eye on the number of threads you spawn relative to the thread limit in CF Admin. The reccomended max thread count is 3 to 5 per processor. So, if you have a dual core processor, the max thread count should be 6-10. You could easily run over this level if you spawn too many threads. Andy ___ Andrew Powell Senior Consultant e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Universal Mind p: 770.424.4110 c: 404.384.0166 f: 678.302.4310 www.universalmind.com ___ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nathan Given Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 11:13 PM To: discussion@acfug.org Subject: Re: [ACFUG Discuss] Spawning threads in Coldfusion: making my webapp run faster On 9/8/06, Mischa Uppelschoten ext 10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a low-tech solution, could you write a cfm page with frames that calls other cfm pages in those frames and then cfhttp the top page? /m Intriguing idea... :-) So let's talk about this one... I can create one cfm template that has multiple iframes in it... each iframe would would essentially be a thread I want to spawn, right? Furthermore, each iframe would just be another cfm template, but it has code to go do work (in my case, go find the price of a book), and then save the information to a database. When the page is done loading, all the information will be saved to the database AND, supposedly, this would all run faster because each iframe would be doing its work at the same time as the other iframes. Is the logic correct here? Would the iframes really be doing their work at the same time? (Or should I use traditional frames?) Thoughts? Thanks! -- nathan - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com - - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com - - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com - - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com -
[ACFUG Discuss] Tagging example in CF
So... Is there an example that anyone knows of, of tagging in a CF site? Is this done by a search of the tag word? _ Derrick Peavy Sales and Web Services Universal Advertising Phone: 404-786-5036 Fax: 404-370-0470 http://www.universaladvertising.com http://www.collegeadvertising.com http://www.collegeclassifieds.com ___
re[2]: [ACFUG Discuss] Spawning threads in Coldfusion: making my webapp run faster
I can't speak to the difference between regular frames and iframes, but you got the idea I had. I'm assuming the cfhttp part of CF will attempt to load all those (i)frames at the same time and open up multiple connections. I also assume that much of the wait you're experiencing is due to the remote server processing your request and not your server working hard. Let us know if it worked! /m On 9/8/06, Mischa Uppelschoten ext 10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a low-tech solution, could you write a cfm page with frames that calls other cfm pages in those frames and then cfhttp the top page? /m Intriguing idea... :-) So let's talk about this one... I can create one cfm template that has multiple iframes in it... each iframe would would essentially be a thread I want to spawn, right? Furthermore, each iframe would just be another cfm template, but it has code to go do work (in my case, go find the price of a book), and then save the information to a database. When the page is done loading, all the information will be saved to the database AND, supposedly, this would all run faster because each iframe would be doing its work at the same time as the other iframes. Is the logic correct here? Would the iframes really be doing their work at the same time? (Or should I use traditional frames?) Thoughts? Thanks! -- nathan - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com - Mischa Uppelschoten The Banker's Exchange, Inc. 2020 Hills Avenue NW Atlanta, GA 30318 Phone:(404) 605-0100 ext. 10 Fax:(404) 355-7930 Web:www.BankersX.com Follow this link for Instant Web Chat: http://www.bankersx.com/Contact/chat.cfm?Queue=MUPPELSCHOTEN - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com -
re: [ACFUG Discuss] converting wav files
You can use LAME from a CFEXECUTE... http://lame.sourceforge.net/USAGE Hey all, I have a cfc (that is really just a wrapper for java) and it is pulling some data down and writing out a wav file. I'd like to either have coldfusion or java convert that file to an mp3 (or anything else that can be natively played by flash). Anyone know of a solution for this (I've searched the web a bit and haven't come up with much). Thanks -- Steven Ross web application interface developer http://www.zerium.com [mobile] 404-488-4364 [fax] 928-484-4364 - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com - Mischa Uppelschoten The Banker's Exchange, Inc. 2020 Hills Avenue NW Atlanta, GA 30318 Phone:(404) 605-0100 ext. 10 Fax:(404) 355-7930 Web:www.BankersX.com Follow this link for Instant Web Chat: http://www.bankersx.com/Contact/chat.cfm?Queue=MUPPELSCHOTEN - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com -
Re: [ACFUG Discuss] Tagging example in CF
What is your definition of tagging? TeddyOn 9/13/06, Derrick Peavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:So... Is there an example that anyone knows of, of tagging in a CF site? Is this done by a search of the tag word? _ Derrick Peavy Sales and Web Services Universal Advertising Phone: 404-786-5036 Fax: 404-370-0470 http://www.universaladvertising.com http://www.collegeadvertising.com http://www.collegeclassifieds.com ___ -- cf_payne /Blog: http://cfpayne.wordpress.com/Atlanta CFUG: http://www.acfug.org - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by FusionLink -
Re: [ACFUG Discuss] Tagging example in CF
Good question. But for example:www.somepage.com/computer - would display content in site regarding computerswww.somepage.com/johndoe - would display content in site regarding candidate john doe.From what I can see, it looks like a simplified/glorified search technique, where instead of having a page for each topic, the user can type in whatever they want and the system/site responds. It is one of the "hot" things that some content/newspaper sites are latching onto.Just wondering if anyone is familiar and has done anything in CF. Is it a url variable sent a query? Or, a static page/directory with index page (contrary to what I stated above), where the search is cached and content pre-formatted. Is any of this making sense?Here is an example:http://www.newsvine.com/Then, type "apple" or "hp" after .com/ and the content reflects that topic. _ Derrick Peavy Sales and Web Services Universal Advertising Phone: 404-786-5036 Fax: 404-370-0470 http://www.universaladvertising.com http://www.collegeadvertising.com http://www.collegeclassifieds.com ___ On Sep 13, 2006, at 9:42 AM, Teddy Payne wrote:What is your definition of tagging? TeddyOn 9/13/06, Derrick Peavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:So... Is there an example that anyone knows of, of tagging in a CF site? Is this done by a search of the tag word? _ Derrick Peavy Sales and Web Services Universal Advertising Phone: 404-786-5036 Fax: 404-370-0470 http://www.universaladvertising.com http://www.collegeadvertising.com http://www.collegeclassifieds.com ___ -- cf_payne /Blog: http://cfpayne.wordpress.com/Atlanta CFUG: http://www.acfug.org - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by FusionLink -
re[2]: [ACFUG Discuss] Tagging example in CF
I've done this. When the user types in a non existing url, two things can happen on IIS: - standard IIS 404 page is loaded - CF default error template is loaded (in case user tries to access a file with an extension that is mapped to CF and I believe IIS is set to not check for the existence of that file). One of the CGI variables (although different ones between standard 404 and CF error page, if memory serves me well) tells you which url the user tried to access, parse out the relevant bit, feed it into your search engine (or whatever logic you want to apply to it) and then display a message, or redirect. Hope this makes sense. Mischa. Good question. But for example: www.somepage.com/computer - would display content in site regarding computers www.somepage.com/johndoe - would display content in site regarding candidate john doe. From what I can see, it looks like a simplified/glorified search technique, where instead of having a page for each topic, the user can type in whatever they want and the system/site responds. It is one of the hot things that some content/newspaper sites are latching onto. Just wondering if anyone is familiar and has done anything in CF. Is it a url variable sent a query? Or, a static page/directory with index page (contrary to what I stated above), where the search is cached and content pre-formatted. Is any of this making sense? Here is an example: http://www.newsvine.com/ Then, type apple or hp after .com/ and the content reflects that topic. _ Derrick Peavy Sales and Web Services Universal Advertising Phone: 404-786-5036 Fax: 404-370-0470 http://www.universaladvertising.com http://www.collegeadvertising.com http://www.collegeclassifieds.com ___ On Sep 13, 2006, at 9:42 AM, Teddy Payne wrote: What is your definition of tagging? Teddy On 9/13/06, Derrick Peavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So... Is there an example that anyone knows of, of tagging in a CF site? Is this done by a search of the tag word? _ Derrick Peavy Sales and Web Services Universal Advertising Phone: 404-786-5036 Fax: 404-370-0470 http://www.universaladvertising.com http://www.collegeadvertising.com http://www.collegeclassifieds.com ___ -- cf_payne / Blog: http://cfpayne.wordpress.com/ Atlanta CFUG: http://www.acfug.org - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by FusionLink - Mischa Uppelschoten The Banker's Exchange, Inc. 2020 Hills Avenue NW Atlanta, GA 30318 Phone:(404) 605-0100 ext. 10 Fax:(404) 355-7930 Web:www.BankersX.com Follow this link for Instant Web Chat: http://www.bankersx.com/Contact/chat.cfm?Queue=MUPPELSCHOTEN - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com -
Re: re[2]: [ACFUG Discuss] Spawning threads in Coldfusion: making my webapp run faster
Isn't the nature of CF synchronous (when it comes to page requests)? So regardless of the order in which you execute these things each one will be executed one at a time on the java stack (FILO - first in last out) think stacking plates on one of those buffet lines - that's the way the java stack behaves It may have the appearance of multi threaded but, I doubt it will speed anything up in reality. It may look faster but, you still have to wait for all those things to finish before you can do anything with them. So multithreaded its not if that is the case. Ive done only a few multithreaded apps (and they were not complex mind you) in java and I'm not sure how CF behaves but when you do this you may create more of a problem for yourself because you are increasing the number of requests per user per page (if multiple users hit this app). Just some things to think about. Here is the link to the java tutorial on threads... might be a little more helpful than the javadoc link above: http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/essential/concurrency/procthread.html On 9/13/06, Mischa Uppelschoten ext 10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't speak to the difference between regular frames and iframes, but you got the idea I had. I'm assuming the cfhttp part of CF will attempt to load all those (i)frames at the same time and open up multiple connections. I also assume that much of the wait you're experiencing is due to the remote server processing your request and not your server working hard. Let us know if it worked! /m On 9/8/06, Mischa Uppelschoten ext 10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a low-tech solution, could you write a cfm page with frames that calls other cfm pages in those frames and then cfhttp the top page? /m Intriguing idea... :-) So let's talk about this one... I can create one cfm template that has multiple iframes in it... each iframe would would essentially be a thread I want to spawn, right? Furthermore, each iframe would just be another cfm template, but it has code to go do work (in my case, go find the price of a book), and then save the information to a database. When the page is done loading, all the information will be saved to the database AND, supposedly, this would all run faster because each iframe would be doing its work at the same time as the other iframes. Is the logic correct here? Would the iframes really be doing their work at the same time? (Or should I use traditional frames?) Thoughts? Thanks! -- nathan - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com - Mischa Uppelschoten The Banker's Exchange, Inc. 2020 Hills Avenue NW Atlanta, GA 30318 Phone:(404) 605-0100 ext. 10 Fax:(404) 355-7930 Web:www.BankersX.com Follow this link for Instant Web Chat: http://www.bankersx.com/Contact/chat.cfm?Queue=MUPPELSCHOTEN - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?falogin.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com - -- Steven Ross web application interface developer http://www.zerium.com [mobile] 404-488-4364 [fax] 928-484-4364 - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com -
re[4]: [ACFUG Discuss] Spawning threads in Coldfusion: making my webapp run faster
What is happening as I thought it out, is that CF gets a request to execute something like GetPriceFromAmazon.cfm, GetPriceFromHalf.cfm, GetPriceFromBN.cfm all at the same time. This is the same as 3 users hitting your site at the same time and I believe CF can execute those requests at the same time as well (as defined by the parameter Maximum number of simultaneous requests in cfadmin). If you execute these requests within one page, yes it will be synchronously and the time it will take is simply adding the individual page's times. In my scenario (if it works at all, it is just a thought so far), the total execution time will be slightly longer or equal to the single slowest page. /m Isn't the nature of CF synchronous (when it comes to page requests)? So regardless of the order in which you execute these things each one will be executed one at a time on the java stack (FILO - first in last out) think stacking plates on one of those buffet lines - that's the way the java stack behaves It may have the appearance of multi threaded but, I doubt it will speed anything up in reality. It may look faster but, you still have to wait for all those things to finish before you can do anything with them. So multithreaded its not if that is the case. Ive done only a few multithreaded apps (and they were not complex mind you) in java and I'm not sure how CF behaves but when you do this you may create more of a problem for yourself because you are increasing the number of requests per user per page (if multiple users hit this app). Just some things to think about. Here is the link to the java tutorial on threads... might be a little more helpful than the javadoc link above: http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/essential/concurrency/procthread.html On 9/13/06, Mischa Uppelschoten ext 10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't speak to the difference between regular frames and iframes, but you got the idea I had. I'm assuming the cfhttp part of CF will attempt to load all those (i)frames at the same time and open up multiple connections. I also assume that much of the wait you're experiencing is due to the remote server processing your request and not your server working hard. Let us know if it worked! /m On 9/8/06, Mischa Uppelschoten ext 10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a low-tech solution, could you write a cfm page with frames that calls other cfm pages in those frames and then cfhttp the top page? /m Intriguing idea... :-) So let's talk about this one... I can create one cfm template that has multiple iframes in it... each iframe would would essentially be a thread I want to spawn, right? Furthermore, each iframe would just be another cfm template, but it has code to go do work (in my case, go find the price of a book), and then save the information to a database. When the page is done loading, all the information will be saved to the database AND, supposedly, this would all run faster because each iframe would be doing its work at the same time as the other iframes. Is the logic correct here? Would the iframes really be doing their work at the same time? (Or should I use traditional frames?) Thoughts? Thanks! -- nathan - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com - Mischa Uppelschoten The Banker's Exchange, Inc. 2020 Hills Avenue NW Atlanta, GA 30318 Phone:(404) 605-0100 ext. 10 Fax:(404) 355-7930 Web:www.BankersX.com Follow this link for Instant Web Chat: http://www.bankersx.com/Contact/chat.cfm?Queue=MUPPELSCHOTEN - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?falogin.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com - -- Steven Ross web application interface developer http://www.zerium.com [mobile] 404-488-4364 [fax] 928-484-4364 - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com - Mischa Uppelschoten The Banker's Exchange, Inc. 2020 Hills Avenue NW Atlanta, GA 30318 Phone:(404) 605-0100 ext. 10 Fax:(404) 355-7930 Web:www.BankersX.com Follow this link for
Re: Re: re[2]: [ACFUG Discuss] Tagging example in CF
Rails has a term for this called dynamic routes... lets you define things as: http://www.somesite.com/controller/model/action these get mapped dynamically to your applicaiton and if that controller doesnt exist it calls the standard 404 page. Its pretty slick, you can also modify these so if you just want to have one that you just made up like /bob point to some random index it does that as well. I haven't checked out the CF on wheels thing (actually watching the demo now) Its as easy as doing: ActionController::Routing.draw do |map| map.connect '', :controller = 'blog', :action = 'recent' map.connect ':controller/:action/:id' end I know enough about rails... just thought I'd chime in since I think CF needs something like the routes thing... it would be very helpful. On 9/13/06, Teddy Payne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well from what I am interpreting here, the technique that could make this easier would be to use the URL rewriting feature of webservers. I know IIS and Apache both have a URL rewriting module that allows for query strings that look like www.someplace.com/fruit/apple and you can use CF to interpret these, you can process the fruit/apple aspect. One solution that I know that uses this technique is CF on Wheels. Now CF on Wheels is a framework that is trying to mature, but the technique from the CF perspective might be soemthing you can research from their code and then create your own solution based upona common idea. Teddy IIS and Apache both offer URL rewriting modules. On 9/13/06, Mischa Uppelschoten ext 10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've done this. When the user types in a non existing url, two things can happen on IIS: - standard IIS 404 page is loaded - CF default error template is loaded (in case user tries to access a file with an extension that is mapped to CF and I believe IIS is set to not check for the existence of that file). One of the CGI variables (although different ones between standard 404 and CF error page, if memory serves me well) tells you which url the user tried to access, parse out the relevant bit, feed it into your search engine (or whatever logic you want to apply to it) and then display a message, or redirect. Hope this makes sense. Mischa. Good question. But for example: www.somepage.com/computer - would display content in site regarding computers www.somepage.com/johndoe - would display content in site regarding candidate john doe. From what I can see, it looks like a simplified/glorified search technique, where instead of having a page for each topic, the user can type in whatever they want and the system/site responds. It is one of the hot things that some content/newspaper sites are latching onto. Just wondering if anyone is familiar and has done anything in CF. Is it a url variable sent a query? Or, a static page/directory with index page (contrary to what I stated above), where the search is cached and content pre-formatted. Is any of this making sense? Here is an example: http://www.newsvine.com/ Then, type apple or hp after .com/ and the content reflects that topic. _ Derrick Peavy Sales and Web Services Universal Advertising Phone: 404-786-5036 Fax: 404-370-0470 http://www.universaladvertising.com http://www.collegeadvertising.com http://www.collegeclassifieds.com ___ On Sep 13, 2006, at 9:42 AM, Teddy Payne wrote: What is your definition of tagging? Teddy On 9/13/06, Derrick Peavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So... Is there an example that anyone knows of, of tagging in a CF site? Is this done by a search of the tag word? _ Derrick Peavy Sales and Web Services Universal Advertising Phone: 404-786-5036 Fax: 404-370-0470 http://www.universaladvertising.com http://www.collegeadvertising.com http://www.collegeclassifieds.com ___ -- cf_payne / Blog: http://cfpayne.wordpress.com/ Atlanta CFUG: http://www.acfug.org - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by FusionLink - Mischa Uppelschoten The Banker's Exchange, Inc. 2020 Hills Avenue NW Atlanta, GA 30318 Phone:(404) 605-0100 ext. 10 Fax:(404) 355-7930 Web:www.BankersX.com Follow this link for Instant Web Chat: http://www.bankersx.com/Contact/chat.cfm?Queue=MUPPELSCHOTEN - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?falogin.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com
[ACFUG Discuss] OT: Designer Needed
If you are a graphics artist / designer please let me know if you are interested in some side work for several projects we have coming up. Thanks, Cody - To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ List hosted by FusionLink -
