Re: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or Soekris?

[Jim Thompson]

On Jun 27, 2008, at 3:35 PM, David Rees wrote:


Way OT, but hopefully others find it interesting...

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 4:04 PM, Jim Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I find this an interesting argument, but I'd like to see some real  
analysis

(with numbers), or at least sources.

If you're right, I'm doing it wrong (3 old trucks (2 toyota  
landcruisers,
one 67 chevy converted to a flatbed) + selling new computer  
components).


I don't see much evidence (in the US) for the post-consumer  
recycling of

vehicles.


I was wrong about 90%+ of automobiles by weight being recycled, I
think I got that mixed up with lead-acid batteries. Automobiles are
recycled about 75% by weight - from what I understand, it's the most
highly recycled "appliances" there are. Just Google for "automobile
recycling".


likely this will continue to decline with time, given that an  
increasing amount of automobiles are made from composites (like  
plastic) rather than metals.



In terms of emissions, new vehicles are so much less
polluting. In terms of energy expenditure, it's only worth replacing
if you are replacing it with something more efficient.


Ah well:

The 74 landcruiser runs an engine/trans out of a 97 blazer, with  
nearly all the emissions gear intact.   Far more fuel efficient, far  
far fewer emissions.
The 88 landcruiser has been converted to a turbo diesel and runs on  
B100 bio-diesel, (sometimes a mixture of straight veggie oil), way,  
way more fuel efficient.
The 69 Chevy truck has a very mild smallblock 350 in it, but it runs  
methanol, which I recover from making the biodiesel that runs in the  
88.   Since it also carries the tank
that I use to collect the veggie oil, I essentially get two 'uses' out  
of the methanol.


So none of them pollute like they used to (well the diesel may  
generate more particulates than the engine it replaced, but far less  
of the other crap that came out of the tailpipe.


Only the 74 runs on gasoline.   Its not been worthwhile (yet) to pull  
that engine and drop in a small diesel, so I pay $4.50/gallon for my  
lack of foresight.


And hey, I work at home, so I don't have a big commute.

And computers get replaced far more often.  The newest car I own is  
a 1988
landcruiser.  The other is a 1974.   I can't imagine running  
pfsense on a

circa 1988 computer.


Nope. And how much of your typical PC do you think is recycled by  
weight?


that depends on how you define PC.   have you looked at the 'e-waste'  
recycling laws that are going onto the books around the US (and  
presumably, world)?
have you ever wondered why Apple/Dell/HP/... will all take back your  
old machine *for free* if you buy a new one from them, and otherwise  
will take back your

old e-waste for a minimal per-pound charge?

Here on Oahu, the plastics get burn-off by H-Power to make  
electricity, the metal chassis gets sent the the mainland, and the  
mobo gets ground into tiny chips.


Most of the (CRT) monitor is toxic waste though.


Back on topic - pfSense is great in that it's perfectly functional for
the vast majority of users on something as small and inexpensive as an
ALIX box with a 400-500MHz CPU and 128-256MB ram. This means you could
run pfSense on 10 year old hardware (that's about what was common 10
years ago) without any issues if you want.


10 year old PC hardware is likely fine (assuming that the mobo hasn't  
started to whisker, and that the capacitors are all intact).
20 year old PC hardware (which is what I suggested wasn't workable)?   
Well, remember that Intel released the 486 in 1989, so you're stuck  
with a 40Mhz 386, MAX.



Of course, in all these cases, you need to look at how much energy
goes in to production, and how much goes in during use. Unfortunately,
there are so many variables involved that it's difficult to say when
it's better to replace something with something new - but in general -
the longer you plan on using something, the quicker it makes sense to
replace that something with something more efficient.


In terms of PC hardware, and most other electronics, agreed.  In terms  
of durable goods with very large per-unit manufacturing inputs (cars  
trucks factory machines, houses)... not so much.


In fact, in the normal case, where you just leave a PC plugged in and  
running, but not actually doing anything, you're likely better off  
replacing your old P4 (or earlier).


Jim

Re: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or Soekris?

[David Rees]

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 5:38 PM, Adam Van Ornum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I appreciate the ideas (even the car discussion is interesting ;) but I'm
> basically looking for something that will cover pretty decent throughput
> with as low energy usage as possible.  Currently I'm on a cable connection
> at ~8Mbps downstream so it won't take too much to cover that, and based on
> the options where I live I doubt anything significantly faster will be
> available for quite a while, so the dual P3 system is overkill.  The system
> is a 1U rackmount unit so its also very limited in terms of options for
> replacing power supplies, etc, and as Dave mentioned, it would still be at
> least several times higher energy usage than something like an Alix.  Plus,
> the noise of that rackmount box is driving me crazy!  :)

Yep, that's the idea. You should be able to find an old PII or AMD
K6-II around 500MHz with a couple PCI slots for NICs for next to
nothing. The power draw of those systems is fairly low (make sure you
have a good 80Plus PSU) - they should idle around 30-35w.

The cost is right, and you get to reuse something that would very
likely be discarded.

Something like an ALIX system would even be better if you could find
one second-hand - but then consider you can get one for as cheap as
$163 (Look at a ALIX 2C0 kit - they can push about 50 Mbps without
much trouble - down the road when pfSense gets based on FreeBSD 7,
hopefully that will go higher ;-). As long as you plan on
keeping/using it for as long as possible, with such a small/light
system the energy/environment costs of a new system are much less than
your typical PC.

-Dave

Re: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or Soekris?

[David Rees]

Way OT, but hopefully others find it interesting...

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 4:04 PM, Jim Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I find this an interesting argument, but I'd like to see some real analysis
> (with numbers), or at least sources.
>
> If you're right, I'm doing it wrong (3 old trucks (2 toyota landcruisers,
> one 67 chevy converted to a flatbed) + selling new computer components).
>
> I don't see much evidence (in the US) for the post-consumer recycling of
> vehicles.

I was wrong about 90%+ of automobiles by weight being recycled, I
think I got that mixed up with lead-acid batteries. Automobiles are
recycled about 75% by weight - from what I understand, it's the most
highly recycled "appliances" there are. Just Google for "automobile
recycling". In terms of emissions, new vehicles are so much less
polluting. In terms of energy expenditure, it's only worth replacing
if you are replacing it with something more efficient.

> And computers get replaced far more often.  The newest car I own is a 1988
> landcruiser.  The other is a 1974.   I can't imagine running pfsense on a
> circa 1988 computer.

Nope. And how much of your typical PC do you think is recycled by weight?

The vast majority of them get sent off to China where some poor kid
melts the thing down releasing all sorts of toxins into their local
environment.

Back on topic - pfSense is great in that it's perfectly functional for
the vast majority of users on something as small and inexpensive as an
ALIX box with a 400-500MHz CPU and 128-256MB ram. This means you could
run pfSense on 10 year old hardware (that's about what was common 10
years ago) without any issues if you want.

Of course, in all these cases, you need to look at how much energy
goes in to production, and how much goes in during use. Unfortunately,
there are so many variables involved that it's difficult to say when
it's better to replace something with something new - but in general -
the longer you plan on using something, the quicker it makes sense to
replace that something with something more efficient.

-Dave

RE: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or Soekris?

[Adam Van Ornum]

I appreciate the ideas (even the car discussion is interesting ;) but I'm 
basically looking for something that will cover pretty decent throughput with 
as low energy usage as possible.  Currently I'm on a cable connection at ~8Mbps 
downstream so it won't take too much to cover that, and based on the options 
where I live I doubt anything significantly faster will be available for quite 
a while, so the dual P3 system is overkill.  The system is a 1U rackmount unit 
so its also very limited in terms of options for replacing power supplies, etc, 
and as Dave mentioned, it would still be at least several times higher energy 
usage than something like an Alix.  Plus, the noise of that rackmount box is 
driving me crazy!  :)
 
Part of the reason I posted here was to see if there were any options that 
would be more ecologically and economically friendly by finding equipment 
someone else didn't need any more, since it seems a number of people around 
here end up in the opposite situation than me...



> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 14:28:53 -0700> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 
> discussion@pfsense.com> Subject: Re: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or 
> Soekris?> > On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Andrew Burnette <[EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]> wrote:> > I had similar thoughts a while back. doesn't always 
> work out the way you> > think. (e.g. toyota prius, while a politically and 
> technologically needed> > car, actually saves no energy over it's lifespan 
> due to the enormous amount> > of front end manufacturing cost and material 
> used).> > Trying to compare the total energy lifecycle of an automobile to a> 
> computer is like trying to compare apples and oranges.> > With computers, the 
> vast majority of energy goes into the production> (~75%), not post production 
> consumption (~25%).> > With automobiles, the vast majority of energy goes 
> into post> production consumption (~75%), not production (~25%).> > So when 
> buying a computer, you generally want to buy the one with used> the least 
> amount of energy to produce it, and with an automobile, you> generally want 
> to buy the one that uses the least amount of energy to> operate it.> > 
> Especially for a computer, it's important to try to re-use old> equipment as 
> old computers typically get thrown away or possibly> recycled (partially, 
> it's not easy to recycle electronics) when people> are "done" with them, but 
> with a vehicle, this is less important as> your average vehicle will be 
> resold as long as the repair/operating> costs are less than the value of the 
> vehicle and only then will the> vehicle be recycled (generally over 90% of a 
> vehicle by weight is> recycled).> > > took single board athlon desktop. 
> Underclocked it as low as the FSB would go> > on motherboard, and lowered the 
> CPU and ram voltages to near minimum. Stuck> > in a laptop hard drive 
> (3.5-2.5 adapter about $5) and an 80% efficient small> > as heck power supply 
> with 3 intel nic cards in the PCI slots.> > Good idea - using an old computer 
> and then reducing it's power> consumption as much as possible - was was the 
> before/after power draw?> > Still, these Alix boxes draw next to no power - 
> we measured ours at> 5-7w. The lower power PC we have is around 45w. You 
> might be able to> get to 30w with a lower power Via CPU and flash or notebook 
> disk and> an ultra-efficient PicoPSU (even 80Plus PSUs are very inefficient> 
> below 50w). The Alix box is still a LOT better if it has the> horsepower you 
> need - especially if you have to buy something new.> > -Dave
_
The i’m Talkathon starts 6/24/08.  For now, give amongst yourselves.
http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnMore_GiveAmongst

Re: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or Soekris?

[Jim Thompson]

I find this an interesting argument, but I'd like to see some real  
analysis (with numbers), or at least sources.


If you're right, I'm doing it wrong (3 old trucks (2 toyota  
landcruisers, one 67 chevy converted to a flatbed) + selling new  
computer components).


I don't see much evidence (in the US) for the post-consumer recycling  
of vehicles.


And computers get replaced far more often.  The newest car I own is a  
1988 landcruiser.  The other is a 1974.   I can't imagine running  
pfsense on a circa 1988 computer.


On Jun 27, 2008, at 11:28 AM, David Rees wrote:


On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Andrew Burnette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I had similar thoughts a while back. doesn't always work out the  
way you
think. (e.g. toyota prius, while a politically and technologically  
needed
car, actually saves no energy over it's lifespan due to the  
enormous amount

of front end manufacturing cost and material used).


Trying to compare the total energy lifecycle of an automobile to a
computer is like trying to compare apples and oranges.

With computers, the vast majority of energy goes into the production
(~75%), not post production consumption (~25%).

With automobiles, the vast majority of energy goes into post
production consumption (~75%), not production (~25%).

So when buying a computer, you generally want to buy the one with used
the least amount of energy to produce it, and with an automobile, you
generally want to buy the one that uses the least amount of energy to
operate it.

Especially for a computer, it's important to try to re-use old
equipment as old computers typically get thrown away or possibly
recycled (partially, it's not easy to recycle electronics) when people
are "done" with them, but with a vehicle, this is less important as
your average vehicle will be resold as long as the repair/operating
costs are less than the value of the vehicle and only then will the
vehicle be recycled (generally over 90% of a vehicle by weight is
recycled).

took single board athlon desktop. Underclocked it as low as the FSB  
would go
on motherboard, and lowered the CPU and ram voltages to near  
minimum. Stuck
in a laptop hard drive (3.5-2.5 adapter about $5) and an 80%  
efficient small

as heck power supply with 3 intel nic cards in the PCI slots.


Good idea - using an old computer and then reducing it's power
consumption as much as possible - was was the before/after power draw?

Still, these Alix boxes draw next to no power - we measured ours at
5-7w. The lower power PC we have is around 45w. You might be able to
get to 30w with a lower power Via CPU and flash or notebook disk and
an ultra-efficient PicoPSU (even 80Plus PSUs are very inefficient
below 50w). The Alix box is still a LOT better if it has the
horsepower you need - especially if you have to buy something new.

-Dave

Re: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or Soekris?

[David Rees]

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Andrew Burnette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I had similar thoughts a while back. doesn't always work out the way you
> think. (e.g. toyota prius, while a politically and technologically needed
> car, actually saves no energy over it's lifespan due to the enormous amount
> of front end manufacturing cost and material used).

Trying to compare the total energy lifecycle of an automobile to a
computer is like trying to compare apples and oranges.

With computers, the vast majority of energy goes into the production
(~75%), not post production consumption (~25%).

With automobiles, the vast majority of energy goes into post
production consumption (~75%), not production (~25%).

So when buying a computer, you generally want to buy the one with used
the least amount of energy to produce it, and with an automobile, you
generally want to buy the one that uses the least amount of energy to
operate it.

Especially for a computer, it's important to try to re-use old
equipment as old computers typically get thrown away or possibly
recycled (partially, it's not easy to recycle electronics) when people
are "done" with them, but with a vehicle, this is less important as
your average vehicle will be resold as long as the repair/operating
costs are less than the value of the vehicle and only then will the
vehicle be recycled (generally over 90% of a vehicle by weight is
recycled).

> took single board athlon desktop. Underclocked it as low as the FSB would go
> on motherboard, and lowered the CPU and ram voltages to near minimum. Stuck
> in a laptop hard drive (3.5-2.5 adapter about $5) and an 80% efficient small
> as heck power supply with 3 intel nic cards in the PCI slots.

Good idea - using an old computer and then reducing it's power
consumption as much as possible - was was the before/after power draw?

Still, these Alix boxes draw next to no power - we measured ours at
5-7w. The lower power PC we have is around 45w. You might be able to
get to 30w with a lower power Via CPU and flash or notebook disk and
an ultra-efficient PicoPSU (even 80Plus PSUs are very inefficient
below 50w). The Alix box is still a LOT better if it has the
horsepower you need - especially if you have to buy something new.

-Dave

Re: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or Soekris?

[Scott Ullrich]

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Andrew Burnette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I had similar thoughts a while back. doesn't always work out the way you
> think. (e.g. toyota prius, while a politically and technologically needed
> car, actually saves no energy over it's lifespan due to the enormous amount
> of front end manufacturing cost and material used).
>
> Here's what I did.
>
> took single board athlon desktop. Underclocked it as low as the FSB would go
> on motherboard, and lowered the CPU and ram voltages to near minimum. Stuck
> in a laptop hard drive (3.5-2.5 adapter about $5) and an 80% efficient small
> as heck power supply with 3 intel nic cards in the PCI slots.
>
> cut power consumption by 1/2 over same setup with original PS running full
> speed. Still doesn't break a sweat at 20Mbps symmetrical and 6k
> connections..
>
> Might try the same. pull CPU number 2, lower the FSB and so on. Big diff is
> the power supplies. Most are *lousy* (under 50% efficient) at light loads.
> You can find the energy star designated ones (80%+ efficient across broad
> operating range) for $40 and up at places like newegg.com (seasonic is one
> of the efficient brands I'm told, and they are quiet, as less heat loss,
> therefore less fan needed)
>
> Hope that helps.  best of luck.
> andy

Great ideas, thanks for sharing!!

Scott

Re: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or Soekris?

[Andrew Burnette]

I had similar thoughts a while back. doesn't always work out the way you 
think. (e.g. toyota prius, while a politically and technologically 
needed car, actually saves no energy over it's lifespan due to the 
enormous amount of front end manufacturing cost and material used).


Here's what I did.

took single board athlon desktop. Underclocked it as low as the FSB 
would go on motherboard, and lowered the CPU and ram voltages to near 
minimum. Stuck in a laptop hard drive (3.5-2.5 adapter about $5) and an 
80% efficient small as heck power supply with 3 intel nic cards in the 
PCI slots.


cut power consumption by 1/2 over same setup with original PS running 
full speed. Still doesn't break a sweat at 20Mbps symmetrical and 6k 
connections..


Might try the same. pull CPU number 2, lower the FSB and so on. Big diff 
is the power supplies. Most are *lousy* (under 50% efficient) at light 
loads. You can find the energy star designated ones (80%+ efficient 
across broad operating range) for $40 and up at places like newegg.com 
(seasonic is one of the efficient brands I'm told, and they are quiet, 
as less heat loss, therefore less fan needed)


Hope that helps.  best of luck.
andy

Adam Van Ornum wrote:
Does anyone have any ALIX or Soekris kits that they don't need any 
more?  I'm currently running pfSense on a dual P3 system at home and its 
way over-powered for what I need and I would like to get something that 
uses a lot less electricity and would be a lot quieter.  I'm looking at 
getting an ALIX 2C3 kit from Netgate but would like to spend as little 
as possible so I figured I might as well ask here and see if someone has 
one they don't need any more.
 
Thanks,

Adam


The i’m Talkathon starts 6/24/08.  For now, give amongst yourselves. 
Learn More 

Re: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or Soekris?

[Eugen Leitl]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 02:14:35PM +0100, Paul Mansfield wrote:

> >Anyone aware of an affordable system with Nano or at least a C7, with
> >decent (Intel would be best, but beggars can't be choosers) NICs onboard?
> >
> >Mini-ITX would be best. But any small brick or 19" 1U form factor
> >ok, too.
> >
> http://www.tranquilpc-shop.co.uk/acatalog/T2e_atom_cd.html
> http://www.tranquilpc-shop.co.uk/acatalog/T7Atom.html

I'm not sure Atom compares favourably to a Nano or even a C7
as far as IPsec support is concerned. Also, it's not a 19" form
factor, not exactly cheap (mini-ITX C7 is slightly over 100 EUR),
doesn't have decent NICs (it seems Atom boards have Realteks?),
especially 2-3 of these onboard.

(I know, I know http://i-want-a-pony.com/ ).

-- 
Eugen* Leitl http://leitl.org";>leitl http://leitl.org
__
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

Re: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or Soekris?

[Simon Dick]

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:14:35 +0100, "Paul Mansfield"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> Eugen Leitl wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 11:28:12AM +0100, Paul Mansfield wrote:
> > 
> >> one of those new Intel Atom CPU motherboards would be worth looking at too.
> > 
> > Anyone aware of an affordable system with Nano or at least a C7, with
> > decent (Intel would be best, but beggars can't be choosers) NICs onboard?
> > 
> > Mini-ITX would be best. But any small brick or 19" 1U form factor
> > ok, too.
> > 
> http://www.tranquilpc-shop.co.uk/acatalog/T2e_atom_cd.html
> http://www.tranquilpc-shop.co.uk/acatalog/T7Atom.html
> ?

They're Realtek chipset NICs I'm afraid:
eth4: Identified chip type is 'RTL8169'.
-- 
Simon Dick
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or Soekris?

[Paul Mansfield]

Eugen Leitl wrote:

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 11:28:12AM +0100, Paul Mansfield wrote:


one of those new Intel Atom CPU motherboards would be worth looking at too.


Anyone aware of an affordable system with Nano or at least a C7, with
decent (Intel would be best, but beggars can't be choosers) NICs onboard?

Mini-ITX would be best. But any small brick or 19" 1U form factor
ok, too.


http://www.tranquilpc-shop.co.uk/acatalog/T2e_atom_cd.html
http://www.tranquilpc-shop.co.uk/acatalog/T7Atom.html
?

Re: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or Soekris?

[Eugen Leitl]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 11:28:12AM +0100, Paul Mansfield wrote:

> one of those new Intel Atom CPU motherboards would be worth looking at too.

Anyone aware of an affordable system with Nano or at least a C7, with
decent (Intel would be best, but beggars can't be choosers) NICs onboard?

Mini-ITX would be best. But any small brick or 19" 1U form factor
ok, too.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl http://leitl.org";>leitl http://leitl.org
__
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

Re: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or Soekris?

[Jim Thompson]

On Jun 25, 2008, at 12:28 AM, Paul Mansfield wrote:


Adam Van Ornum wrote:
Does anyone have any ALIX or Soekris kits that they don't need any  
more?  I'm currently running pfSense on a dual P3 system at home  
and its way over-powered for what I need and I would like to get  
something that



one of those new Intel Atom CPU motherboards would be worth looking  
at too.


If I had the requisite EE skills, I'd build one in an Alix form-factor.

Re: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or Soekris?

[Paul Mansfield]

Adam Van Ornum wrote:
Does anyone have any ALIX or Soekris kits that they don't need any 
more?  I'm currently running pfSense on a dual P3 system at home and its 
way over-powered for what I need and I would like to get something that 



one of those new Intel Atom CPU motherboards would be worth looking at too.

Re: [pfSense-discussion] Used ALIX or Soekris?

[Jim Thompson]

Heh,

I've got an old Soekris 45xx board, complete with enclosure, but I was  
going to use it for the pool area over at the home owners association,  
as well as a smattering of WRAP boards littering the office.


now we have a dilemma.  :-)

Jim

On Jun 24, 2008, at 2:11 PM, Adam Van Ornum wrote:

Does anyone have any ALIX or Soekris kits that they don't need any  
more?  I'm currently running pfSense on a dual P3 system at home and  
its way over-powered for what I need and I would like to get  
something that uses a lot less electricity and would be a lot  
quieter.  I'm looking at getting an ALIX 2C3 kit from Netgate but  
would like to spend as little as possible so I figured I might as  
well ask here and see if someone has one they don't need any more.


Thanks,
Adam

The i’m Talkathon starts 6/24/08.  For now, give amongst yourselves.  
Learn More