Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Paul Moore]

On 20 November 2014 13:31, holger krekel  wrote:
> Thanks Paul for going through this!  Looking forward to the link/code.

Cheers - it's not forgotten, but real life's being a nuisance, so it's
on the back burner for a short while. I'll try to get something done
in a few weeks.
Paul
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[holger krekel]

On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 10:45 +, Paul Moore wrote:
> On 7 November 2014 15:46, Paul Moore  wrote:
> > To that end, I'd like to get an idea of what sort of access to Windows
> > a typical Unix developer would have.
> 
> Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.
> 
> Based on the feedback, I think it's going to be useful to provide two
> options. First of all, an EC2 AMI that can be used by people without
> access to a local Windows system. While other cloud providers are a
> possibility, EC2 provides a free tier (for the first year) and is
> well-known, so it's probably the easiest to get started with (at least
> it was for me!) Also, I will provide a script that can be used to
> automatically build the environment on a newly-installed machine. The
> idea is that you can use this on a Windows VM (something that a number
> of people have said they have access to).
> 
> The script may be usable on an existing machine, but it's hard to make
> it robust, as there are too many failure modes to consider (software
> already installed, configuration and/or permission differences, etc).
> So while such use may be possible, I probably won't consider it as
> supported.

Thanks Paul for going through this!  Looking forward to the link/code.

holger

> Thanks again,
> Paul
> ___
> Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
> 
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Paul Moore]

On 7 November 2014 15:46, Paul Moore  wrote:
> To that end, I'd like to get an idea of what sort of access to Windows
> a typical Unix developer would have.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.

Based on the feedback, I think it's going to be useful to provide two
options. First of all, an EC2 AMI that can be used by people without
access to a local Windows system. While other cloud providers are a
possibility, EC2 provides a free tier (for the first year) and is
well-known, so it's probably the easiest to get started with (at least
it was for me!) Also, I will provide a script that can be used to
automatically build the environment on a newly-installed machine. The
idea is that you can use this on a Windows VM (something that a number
of people have said they have access to).

The script may be usable on an existing machine, but it's hard to make
it robust, as there are too many failure modes to consider (software
already installed, configuration and/or permission differences, etc).
So while such use may be possible, I probably won't consider it as
supported.

Thanks again,
Paul
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Steve Dower]

True. It is followed immediately by a clarification that local laws take 
precedence, and I guess it's still sufficient to cover the trade secret side of 
things. Licenses that have to apply internationally are tricky :)

Top-posted from my Windows Phone

From: Jan Claeys<mailto:li...@janc.be>
Sent: ‎11/‎10/‎2014 17:33
To: distutils-sig@python.org<mailto:distutils-sig@python.org>
Subject: Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make 
about Unix users' access to Windows?

Steve Dower schreef op ma 10-11-2014 om 16:35 [+]:
> > * Forbidding reverse-engineering of the OS to see how it behaves.
>
> Yeah, I doubt that restriction is moving anywhere. It's standard for
> closed-source software, and as I understand it's intended to legally
> protect trade secrets and patents (i.e. "we tried our hardest to keep
> this a trade secret"). I've never heard of anyone being pursued for
> doing it though, except to be offered a job working on Windows :)

FWIW: that statement is illegal and thus void in e.g. the EU (and I
thought even the USA?).  That's probably why it didn't get pursued often
recently...  ;)


--
Jan Claeys

___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Jan Claeys]

Steve Dower schreef op ma 10-11-2014 om 16:35 [+]:
> > * Forbidding reverse-engineering of the OS to see how it behaves.
> 
> Yeah, I doubt that restriction is moving anywhere. It's standard for
> closed-source software, and as I understand it's intended to legally
> protect trade secrets and patents (i.e. "we tried our hardest to keep
> this a trade secret"). I've never heard of anyone being pursued for
> doing it though, except to be offered a job working on Windows :)

FWIW: that statement is illegal and thus void in e.g. the EU (and I
thought even the USA?).  That's probably why it didn't get pursued often
recently...  ;)


-- 
Jan Claeys

___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Steve Dower]

Ben Finney wrote:
> Steve Dower  writes:
>> Ben Finney wrote:
>> > The restrictions of the license terms make MS Windows an
>> > unacceptable risk on any machine I'm responsible for.
>>
>> Just out of interest, which restrictions would those be?
> 
> It has been a long time since I bothered to read any of the numerous license
> texts from Microsoft, so I can't cite specific clauses. From memory,
> unacceptable restrictions include:
> 
> * Restricting the instance to specific hardware, instead of leaving it
> up to the recipient to run the work they paid for on any hardware they
> choose.

If by "specific hardware" you mean the one-license-per-user-per-machine rule, 
you probably want to consider Windows Server, which has a more flexible license 
in this respect (or maybe not - it might just allow multiple users on one 
license/machine. I haven't checked this).

> * Forbidding reverse-engineering of the OS to see how it behaves.

Yeah, I doubt that restriction is moving anywhere. It's standard for 
closed-source software, and as I understand it's intended to legally protect 
trade secrets and patents (i.e. "we tried our hardest to keep this a trade 
secret"). I've never heard of anyone being pursued for doing it though, except 
to be offered a job working on Windows :)

> * Forbidding collaboration with other recipients to discover how the OS
> behaves.

"Other recipients" are explicitly excluded - "for use by one person at a 
time"[1] - so the rest of this point doesn't really make any sense to me.

That said, it does trigger some memories of when I was contributing to ReactOS 
years ago... is this one of their suggestions about how to avoid taint? (Or 
maybe from Wine?) Those guys have obtained their own legal advice which is 
going to be aimed at preventing a court case (not just preventing a loss - 
preventing it from happening in the first place) and so it's going to be based 
on an interpretation of the license and be more defensive than most people need 
to worry about.

> * Refusal to disclose the source code for the running OS to the
> recipient.

Again, it's part of the business and legal model. If you really want access to 
the source code, you can pay for it, but most people and businesses can't 
afford it or don't want it that badly. (There are also technical reasons why 
the source code can't easily be disclosed - how many hundreds of gigabytes of 
code are you willing to download and wade through? Yes, it's that big.)

> * Forbidding the recipient from getting their choice of vendor to make
> improvements to the OS and collaborate with other recipients on the
> improvements.

I know this used to exist, as there were a number of RT/embedded OSs available 
that were based on Windows. I think at this point they've all been absorbed 
into Microsoft though.

> * Arrogating control of the running OS to a party other than the license
> recipient, including the ability to (at Microsoft's sole discretion)
> deny applications to run, and to disable features of the OS.
> 
> * Arrogating data collection to Microsoft and undisclosed third parties,
> tracking broad classes of activity on the OS and sending the logs to a
> server not of the recipient's choosing.

It seems you fundamentally disagree with the 'licensing' model and would prefer 
an 'ownership' model. That's fine, but it's not the business model Windows 
operates under and that is unlikely to ever change. Even if I were CEO, I'd 
have a hard time changing that one :)

>> Does this prevent you from creating a VM on a cloud provider on your
>> own account?
> 
> If I need to accept restrictions such as the above, I don't see that the
> location of the instance (nor the fees charged) has any affect on these
> concerns. The risks discussed above are not mitigated.
> 
>> If the licensing is a real issue, I'm in a position where I can have a
>> positive impact on fixing it, so any info you can provide me (on- or
>> off-list) about your concerns is valuable.
> 
> Thank you for this offer, I am glad to see willingness expressed to solve 
> these
> restrictions. I hope you can achieve software freedom for all recipients of
> Microsoft operating systems.
> 
> Until then, the risk is too great to anyone to whom I have professional
> responsibilities, and my advice must continue to be that they avoid accepting
> such restrictions.

That's a fair enough position, and without people taking that stance, Linux 
(and practically every OS that's based on it) wouldn't be anywhere near as 
usable as it is today. I'm also fully aware of people with the exact opposite 
stance who give the exact opposite advice, so there's room in this world for 
all of us.

I'm sorry I can't do any better than the few responses above - these are big 
issues that run to the core of how Microsoft does business, and not only am I 
incapable of changing them, I'm nowhere near capable of fully understanding how 
it all fits together. Thanks for being willing to engage, though. It's always

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Greg Ewing]

Donald Stufft wrote:

For RDP on OSX, Microsoft has a free RDP app:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-remote-desktop/id715768417


And here's another one that I find to be slightly better:

http://cord.sourceforge.net/

--
Greg
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[David Cournapeau]

On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 6:39 PM, Kevin Horn  wrote:

> Regarding remote access to windows machines, there are several options:
>
> - Remote powershell (not my area, so not sure how viable this is)
> - Use pexec from sysinternals to run cmd.exe remotely (probably on local
> network only, and only from other windows machines, so probably not that
> helpful)
> - Windows comes with a telnet server (obviously not very secure, but you
> could use stunnel/vpn or similar to help here)
> - WinRM (and pywinrm as has been mentioned).  Note that vagrant either
> does or will soon support talking to Windows VMs using this method.
>

It does (and has for a while).

We at Enthought automate package builds for linux, mac and windows through
fabric (+ winrm on windows) on vagrant-built VMs, and it works well when
you need a consistent interface to those environments. We have been
building packages as involved as Qt, Pyside or scipy with native MS tools
through this way, so I am confident this would work for almost every
situation of interest here.

David
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Kevin Horn]

Regarding remote access to windows machines, there are several options:

- Remote powershell (not my area, so not sure how viable this is)
- Use pexec from sysinternals to run cmd.exe remotely (probably on local
network only, and only from other windows machines, so probably not that
helpful)
- Windows comes with a telnet server (obviously not very secure, but you
could use stunnel/vpn or similar to help here)
- WinRM (and pywinrm as has been mentioned).  Note that vagrant either does
or will soon support talking to Windows VMs using this method.
- SSH: it is possible to set up an ssh server to work on Windows, but
is...non-trivial (i.e. hard) and many caveats apply. See freesshd or KpyM.


There are also some GUI options:
- RDP
- the venerable VNC

Obvioiusly the GUI options are more difficult to automate.

On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 6:28 AM, Paul Moore  wrote:

> On 9 November 2014 12:21, Tim Golden  wrote:
> > I think the OP was speaking not so much about having the technical
> > wherewithal to use RDP but rather about the experience of RDP vs SSH.
>
> That was certainly my understanding. The key issue for me is to try to
> make the process of just running "pip wheel myproject" or "pip wheel
> git+https://github.com/me/myproject"; as simple and painless as
> possible for people without Windows experience.
>
> That's somewhat optimistic, because if the command fails with an
> error, the developer is still going to need to work out how to debug
> why the code isn't portable, etc. But that's a whole different
> situation, and well out of scope.
>
> > The
> > difficulty is that Windows doesn't really "think" in ssh. I believe there
> > are (third-party) mechanisms to provide ssh-like access, but I don't know
> > how successful they really are.
>
> Yeah, that's where things like cygwin probably won't work well,
> because you don't get the "normal" Windows environment. But it might
> be possible - after all, see above - it's really only a few simple
> commands we need to support.
>
> Paul
> ___
> Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
>



-- 
--
Kevin Horn
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Tim Golden]

On 09/11/2014 12:13, Vinay Sajip wrote:

Thanks, that's very useful feedback. I agree, the need for RDP is
very



Windows-specific - I don't know how common RDP tools are for Unix,
but





Not uncommon, AFAIK. For example, I use rdesktop on Lubuntu to access
Windows machines via RDP, and it seems fairly stable. There are
alternative tools available (such as remmina).


I think the OP was speaking not so much about having the technical 
wherewithal to use RDP but rather about the experience of RDP vs SSH. 
The difficulty is that Windows doesn't really "think" in ssh. I believe 
there are (third-party) mechanisms to provide ssh-like access, but I 
don't know how successful they really are.


TJG
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Paul Moore]

On 9 November 2014 14:44, Donald Stufft  wrote:
> For RDP on OSX, Microsoft has a free RDP app: 
> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-remote-desktop/id715768417

Yeah, I don't think RDP is *technically* an issue. There are Linux RDP
apps as well.
Paul
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Donald Stufft]

> On Nov 9, 2014, at 7:13 AM, Vinay Sajip  wrote:
> 
>> Thanks, that's very useful feedback. I agree, the need for RDP is very
> 
>> Windows-specific - I don't know how common RDP tools are for Unix, but
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not uncommon, AFAIK. For example, I use rdesktop on Lubuntu to access Windows 
> machines via RDP, and it seems fairly stable. There are alternative tools 
> available (such as remmina).
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vinay Sajip
> ___
> Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

For RDP on OSX, Microsoft has a free RDP app: 
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-remote-desktop/id715768417

---
Donald Stufft
PGP: 7C6B 7C5D 5E2B 6356 A926 F04F 6E3C BCE9 3372 DCFA

___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Paul Moore]

On 9 November 2014 13:04, David Cournapeau  wrote:
> Regarding winrm, note that it can be fairly complicated to set it up on the
> windows side.

For my simple test, "winrm quickconfig" worked OK.

Having said all this, though, I'm not sure that hiding the Windows
environment this thoroughly is productive. If you just want to build
wheels, and you don't intend to be debugging Windows issues on the
Windows box, then Appveyor is probably more appropriate (see
https://packaging.python.org/en/latest/appveyor.html). If you want an
actual Windows environment, surely you expect to need to log onto it?

Paul
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Paul Moore]

On 9 November 2014 12:40, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
> Underlying library: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pywinrm

Wow - that sounds awesome. Not that I can get it working yet, looks
like WinRM might need some setting up (and/or VirtualBox networking is
getting in the way :-() But that is definitely something I'll be
looking at.

Thanks,
Paul
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[David Cournapeau]

Regarding winrm, note that it can be fairly complicated to set it up on the
windows side.

I can confirm it works well, though. We're using an internal hack of fabric
to communicate from linux to windows through winrm at work, and it does the
job.

David

On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Nick Coghlan  wrote:

>
> On 9 Nov 2014 22:28, "Nick Coghlan"  wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 9 Nov 2014 22:16, "Vinay Sajip"  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks, that's very useful feedback. I agree, the need for RDP is
> very
> > >
> > > > Windows-specific - I don't know how common RDP tools are for Unix,
> but
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Not uncommon, AFAIK. For example, I use rdesktop on Lubuntu to access
> Windows machines via RDP, and it seems fairly stable. There are alternative
> tools available (such as remmina).
> >
> > For automated scripting from a *nix host, it's also worth noting that
> Ansible supports remote control of Windows systems, and the underlying
> Python libraries for that connectivity are also open source (they talk to
> the native Windows remote control interfaces, so they don't need anything
> special on the target system).
>
> Oops, forgot the link: http://docs.ansible.com/intro_windows.html
>
> Underlying library: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pywinrm
>
> Cheers,
> Nick.
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Nick.
> >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Vinay Sajip
> > > ___
> > > Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
> > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
>
> ___
> Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
>
>
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Paul Moore]

On 9 November 2014 12:28, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
> For automated scripting from a *nix host, it's also worth noting that
> Ansible supports remote control of Windows systems, and the underlying
> Python libraries for that connectivity are also open source (they talk to
> the native Windows remote control interfaces, so they don't need anything
> special on the target system).

I would *love* to be able to set up something like that (I believe
Salt has Windows support as well - I hadn't realised Ansible did). But
that would involve me learning a big chunk of Unix sysop stuff, as
well as having a number of machines to play with. Not enough hours in
the day, unfortunately.

Paul
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Nick Coghlan]

On 9 Nov 2014 22:28, "Nick Coghlan"  wrote:
>
>
> On 9 Nov 2014 22:16, "Vinay Sajip"  wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks, that's very useful feedback. I agree, the need for RDP is very
> >
> > > Windows-specific - I don't know how common RDP tools are for Unix, but
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Not uncommon, AFAIK. For example, I use rdesktop on Lubuntu to access
Windows machines via RDP, and it seems fairly stable. There are alternative
tools available (such as remmina).
>
> For automated scripting from a *nix host, it's also worth noting that
Ansible supports remote control of Windows systems, and the underlying
Python libraries for that connectivity are also open source (they talk to
the native Windows remote control interfaces, so they don't need anything
special on the target system).

Oops, forgot the link: http://docs.ansible.com/intro_windows.html

Underlying library: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pywinrm

Cheers,
Nick.

>
> Cheers,
> Nick.
>
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Vinay Sajip
> > ___
> > Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Paul Moore]

On 9 November 2014 12:21, Tim Golden  wrote:
> I think the OP was speaking not so much about having the technical
> wherewithal to use RDP but rather about the experience of RDP vs SSH.

That was certainly my understanding. The key issue for me is to try to
make the process of just running "pip wheel myproject" or "pip wheel
git+https://github.com/me/myproject"; as simple and painless as
possible for people without Windows experience.

That's somewhat optimistic, because if the command fails with an
error, the developer is still going to need to work out how to debug
why the code isn't portable, etc. But that's a whole different
situation, and well out of scope.

> The
> difficulty is that Windows doesn't really "think" in ssh. I believe there
> are (third-party) mechanisms to provide ssh-like access, but I don't know
> how successful they really are.

Yeah, that's where things like cygwin probably won't work well,
because you don't get the "normal" Windows environment. But it might
be possible - after all, see above - it's really only a few simple
commands we need to support.

Paul
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Nick Coghlan]

On 9 Nov 2014 22:16, "Vinay Sajip"  wrote:
>
> > Thanks, that's very useful feedback. I agree, the need for RDP is very
>
> > Windows-specific - I don't know how common RDP tools are for Unix, but
>
>
>
>
> Not uncommon, AFAIK. For example, I use rdesktop on Lubuntu to access
Windows machines via RDP, and it seems fairly stable. There are alternative
tools available (such as remmina).

For automated scripting from a *nix host, it's also worth noting that
Ansible supports remote control of Windows systems, and the underlying
Python libraries for that connectivity are also open source (they talk to
the native Windows remote control interfaces, so they don't need anything
special on the target system).

Cheers,
Nick.

>
> Regards,
>
> Vinay Sajip
> ___
> Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Vinay Sajip]

> Thanks, that's very useful feedback. I agree, the need for RDP is very

> Windows-specific - I don't know how common RDP tools are for Unix, but




Not uncommon, AFAIK. For example, I use rdesktop on Lubuntu to access Windows 
machines via RDP, and it seems fairly stable. There are alternative tools 
available (such as remmina).

Regards,

Vinay Sajip
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Paul Moore]

On 7 November 2014 16:15, Jonathan Helmus  wrote:
> This sounds like a very useful project.  I do most my development in Linux
> or OS X but occasionally spin up a Windows VM locally or in the cloud to
> produce some Python wheels or conda packages.  The one annoyance I find is
> that I need to use an RDP client to connect to the instance as opposed to
> using ssh as I do when connecting to a Unix machine.  If the VM could
> support ssh connections this would reduce this burden.  I am not familiar
> enough with Windows to know how feasible this is but it would allow Unix
> users to use the tools they are likely already familiar with.

Thanks, that's very useful feedback. I agree, the need for RDP is very
Windows-specific - I don't know how common RDP tools are for Unix, but
I can easily imagine it's a nuisance to set one up. I'm not aware of
any ssh implementations for Windows (other than cygwin, which probably
has other issues) but I'll see what I can find.

Paul
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Jonathan Helmus]

On 11/07/2014 09:46 AM, Paul Moore wrote:

I'm in the process of developing an automated solution to allow users
to quickly set up a Windows box so that it can be used to compile
Python extensions and build wheels. While it can obviously be used by
Windows developers who want to quickly set up a box, my main target is
Unix developers who want to provide wheels for Windows users.

To that end, I'd like to get an idea of what sort of access to Windows
a typical Unix developer would have. I'm particularly interested in
whether Windows XP/Vista is still in use, and whether you're likely to
already have Python and/or any development tools installed. Ideally, a
clean Windows 7 or later virtual machine is the best environment, but
I don't know if it's reasonable to assume that.

Another alternative is to have an Amazon EC2 AMI prebuilt, and users
can just create an instance based on it. That seems pretty easy to do
from my perspective but I don't know if the connectivity process
(remote desktop) is a problem for Unix developers.

Any feedback would be extremely useful. I'm at a point where I can
pretty easily set up any of these options, but if they don't turn out
to actually be usable by the target audience, it's a bit of a waste of
time! :-)

Thanks,
Paul
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Paul,

This sounds like a very useful project.  I do most my development 
in Linux or OS X but occasionally spin up a Windows VM locally or in the 
cloud to produce some Python wheels or conda packages.  The one 
annoyance I find is that I need to use an RDP client to connect to the 
instance as opposed to using ssh as I do when connecting to a Unix 
machine.  If the VM could support ssh connections this would reduce this 
burden.  I am not familiar enough with Windows to know how feasible this 
is but it would allow Unix users to use the tools they are likely 
already familiar with.


 - Jonathan Helmus
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Ethan Furman]

I have a couple languishing laptops that still have XP on them.

I have one desktop with Win7, used primarily for unittesting my modules (no dev tools beyond Python, although I should 
get VS on it at some point).


--
~Ethan~
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Christian Heimes]

On 07.11.2014 16:46, Paul Moore wrote:
> Any feedback would be extremely useful. I'm at a point where I can
> pretty easily set up any of these options, but if they don't turn out
> to actually be usable by the target audience, it's a bit of a waste of
> time! :-)

I'm hosting two Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit instances with VirtualBox, one
my laptop and the other on my work station. Each box has two Visual
Studio installations for Python 2.7 and 3.3+. All licenses are sponsored
by Microsoft (MSDN subscription).

Christian
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Paul Moore]

On 7 November 2014 17:42, Ben Finney  wrote:
>> Does this prevent you from creating a VM on a cloud provider on your
>> own account?
>
> If I need to accept restrictions such as the above, I don't see that the
> location of the instance (nor the fees charged) has any affect on these
> concerns. The risks discussed above are not mitigated.

Thanks for the clarification. Given what you say, I don't see any way
that I can offer a solution you'd be willing to accept - I suspect the
only viable option for you would be support for cross-compilation
using mingw/ggg, which I'm not able to offer. For now, I guess, that
simply means I'll have to consider you (and anyone else for whom even
running a Windows system is unacceptable) outside of my target
audience.

Paul
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Ben Finney]

Steve Dower  writes:

> Ben Finney wrote:
> > The restrictions of the license terms make MS Windows an
> > unacceptable risk on any machine I'm responsible for.
>
> Just out of interest, which restrictions would those be?

It has been a long time since I bothered to read any of the numerous
license texts from Microsoft, so I can't cite specific clauses. From
memory, unacceptable restrictions include:

* Restricting the instance to specific hardware, instead of leaving it
  up to the recipient to run the work they paid for on any hardware they
  choose.

* Forbidding reverse-engineering of the OS to see how it behaves.

* Forbidding collaboration with other recipients to discover how the OS
  behaves.

* Refusal to disclose the source code for the running OS to the
  recipient.

* Forbidding the recipient from getting their choice of vendor to make
  improvements to the OS and collaborate with other recipients on the
  improvements.

* Arrogating control of the running OS to a party other than the license
  recipient, including the ability to (at Microsoft's sole discretion)
  deny applications to run, and to disable features of the OS.

* Arrogating data collection to Microsoft and undisclosed third parties,
  tracking broad classes of activity on the OS and sending the logs to a
  server not of the recipient's choosing.

> Does this prevent you from creating a VM on a cloud provider on your
> own account?

If I need to accept restrictions such as the above, I don't see that the
location of the instance (nor the fees charged) has any affect on these
concerns. The risks discussed above are not mitigated.

> If the licensing is a real issue, I'm in a position where I can have a
> positive impact on fixing it, so any info you can provide me (on- or
> off-list) about your concerns is valuable.

Thank you for this offer, I am glad to see willingness expressed to
solve these restrictions. I hope you can achieve software freedom for
all recipients of Microsoft operating systems.

Until then, the risk is too great to anyone to whom I have professional
responsibilities, and my advice must continue to be that they avoid
accepting such restrictions.

-- 
 \“Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability.” —Edsger W. |
  `\  Dijkstra |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney

___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Paul Moore]

On 7 November 2014 17:17, Ben Finney  wrote:
> Paul Moore  writes:
>
>> On 7 November 2014 16:52, Ben Finney  wrote:
>> > If I was required to provide packages for MS Windows, the only viable
>> > solutions would be those that don't involve me obtaining an MS Windows
>> > instance myself.
>>
>> For that usage […] the license costs […]
>
> I didn't mention monetary costs at all. My understanding is that
> changing the cost doesn't in any way affect the terms of the license one
> is bound by.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. As Steve said, it would be necessary to
understand the restrictions you're working under to be able to
comment.
Paul
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Ben Finney]

Paul Moore  writes:

> On 7 November 2014 16:52, Ben Finney  wrote:
> > If I was required to provide packages for MS Windows, the only viable
> > solutions would be those that don't involve me obtaining an MS Windows
> > instance myself.
>
> For that usage […] the license costs […]

I didn't mention monetary costs at all. My understanding is that
changing the cost doesn't in any way affect the terms of the license one
is bound by.

-- 
 \ “I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or |
  `\anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic.” —Albert |
_o__)Einstein, unsent letter, 1955 |
Ben Finney

___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Paul Moore]

On 7 November 2014 16:52, Ben Finney  wrote:
> If I was required to provide packages for MS Windows, the only viable
> solutions would be those that don't involve me obtaining an MS Windows
> instance myself.

For that usage, an Amazon EC2 AMI sounds ideal, as the license costs
are covered by the AWS costs (which are zero, if you're on the free
usage tier).

Paul
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Steve Dower]

Ben Finney wrote:
> Paul Moore  writes:
> 
>> To that end, I'd like to get an idea of what sort of access to Windows
>> a typical Unix developer would have. […] Ideally, a clean Windows 7 or
>> later virtual machine is the best environment, but I don't know if
>> it's reasonable to assume that.
> 
> It's difficult to say what “a typical Unix developer” is. But a significant 
> use
> case is going to be “no legal access to any MS Windows instance”.
> 
> The restrictions of the license terms make MS Windows an unacceptable risk on
> any machine I'm responsible for.

Just out of interest, which restrictions would those be? I may be able to raise 
them with one of our lawyers and get some clarification.

> It has been many years since I've even had a colleague who has a MS Windows
> instance, and I am not sure where I'd go for one if the need arose.
>
> If I was required to provide packages for MS Windows, the only viable 
> solutions
> would be those that don't involve me obtaining an MS Windows instance myself.

Does this prevent you from creating a VM on a cloud provider on your own 
account? As far as Microsoft Azure is concerned, this is well within the 
license restrictions (at least for Windows Server right now), and all providers 
giving you access to Windows should be bundling in a license fee, which makes 
it about as legit as possible. Simply giving you "share time" on someone else's 
copy of Windows is much more of a grey area as far as licensing is concerned.

If the licensing is a real issue, I'm in a position where I can have a positive 
impact on fixing it, so any info you can provide me (on- or off-list) about 
your concerns is valuable.

Cheers,
Steve
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Ben Finney]

Paul Moore  writes:

> To that end, I'd like to get an idea of what sort of access to Windows
> a typical Unix developer would have. […] Ideally, a clean Windows 7 or
> later virtual machine is the best environment, but I don't know if
> it's reasonable to assume that.

It's difficult to say what “a typical Unix developer” is. But a
significant use case is going to be “no legal access to any MS Windows
instance”.

The restrictions of the license terms make MS Windows an unacceptable
risk on any machine I'm responsible for. It has been many years since
I've even had a colleague who has a MS Windows instance, and I am not
sure where I'd go for one if the need arose.

If I was required to provide packages for MS Windows, the only viable
solutions would be those that don't involve me obtaining an MS Windows
instance myself.

-- 
 \  “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does |
  `\   knowledge.” —Charles Darwin, _The Descent of Man_, 1871 |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney

___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Marius Gedminas]

On Fri, Nov 07, 2014 at 03:46:36PM +, Paul Moore wrote:
> I'm in the process of developing an automated solution to allow users
> to quickly set up a Windows box so that it can be used to compile
> Python extensions and build wheels. While it can obviously be used by
> Windows developers who want to quickly set up a box, my main target is
> Unix developers who want to provide wheels for Windows users.
> 
> To that end, I'd like to get an idea of what sort of access to Windows
> a typical Unix developer would have. I'm particularly interested in
> whether Windows XP/Vista is still in use, and whether you're likely to
> already have Python and/or any development tools installed. Ideally, a
> clean Windows 7 or later virtual machine is the best environment, but
> I don't know if it's reasonable to assume that.
> 
> Another alternative is to have an Amazon EC2 AMI prebuilt, and users
> can just create an instance based on it. That seems pretty easy to do
> from my perspective but I don't know if the connectivity process
> (remote desktop) is a problem for Unix developers.
> 
> Any feedback would be extremely useful.

I don't maintain any Python packages with C extensions, so I'm not sure
my feedback is useful.  Nevertheless:

I have a cloud VM running Windows Server WhicheverWasTheHighestNumberAtTheTime
with no C compilers on it.  (I don't think the bits of Mingw that come
with Git for Windows include gcc.)

I have all the relevant versions of Python installed on it, with added
setuptools and pip in each.  IIRC I also installed tox and virtualenv
into their site packages.

I use this VM as a Jenkins slave to run tests of various Python
packages.  Some of them need binaries, and I rely on package maintainers to
upload Windows wheels to PyPI.  Since *of course* they don't all do that, so I
have to maintain a set of wheels automatically converted from .exe and
.egg installers with https://github.com/mgedmin/wheelwright.

Anything that makes it easier for package maintainers build Windows
wheels would be very welcome!

Marius Gedminas
-- 
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Wichert Akkerman]

> On 07 Nov 2014, at 16:46, Paul Moore  wrote:
> 
> I'm in the process of developing an automated solution to allow users
> to quickly set up a Windows box so that it can be used to compile
> Python extensions and build wheels. While it can obviously be used by
> Windows developers who want to quickly set up a box, my main target is
> Unix developers who want to provide wheels for Windows users.
> 
> To that end, I'd like to get an idea of what sort of access to Windows
> a typical Unix developer would have.

In my case: none.

The only form of Windows I have are VMs I grab from modern.ie 
 to test things with various IE versions. Those are all 
throw-away instances that are never used for anything other than IE testing.

Wichert.___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Fri, 7 Nov 2014 15:46:36 +
Paul Moore  wrote:
> I'm in the process of developing an automated solution to allow users
> to quickly set up a Windows box so that it can be used to compile
> Python extensions and build wheels. While it can obviously be used by
> Windows developers who want to quickly set up a box, my main target is
> Unix developers who want to provide wheels for Windows users.
> 
> To that end, I'd like to get an idea of what sort of access to Windows
> a typical Unix developer would have. I'm particularly interested in
> whether Windows XP/Vista is still in use, and whether you're likely to
> already have Python and/or any development tools installed. Ideally, a
> clean Windows 7 or later virtual machine is the best environment, but
> I don't know if it's reasonable to assume that.

I use a Windows 7 VM with SP1. All running under KVM with virt-manager.

Regards

Antoine.


___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Donald Stufft]

> On Nov 7, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Paul Moore  wrote:
> 
> I'm in the process of developing an automated solution to allow users
> to quickly set up a Windows box so that it can be used to compile
> Python extensions and build wheels. While it can obviously be used by
> Windows developers who want to quickly set up a box, my main target is
> Unix developers who want to provide wheels for Windows users.
> 
> To that end, I'd like to get an idea of what sort of access to Windows
> a typical Unix developer would have. I'm particularly interested in
> whether Windows XP/Vista is still in use, and whether you're likely to
> already have Python and/or any development tools installed. Ideally, a
> clean Windows 7 or later virtual machine is the best environment, but
> I don't know if it's reasonable to assume that.
> 
> Another alternative is to have an Amazon EC2 AMI prebuilt, and users
> can just create an instance based on it. That seems pretty easy to do
> from my perspective but I don't know if the connectivity process
> (remote desktop) is a problem for Unix developers.
> 
> Any feedback would be extremely useful. I'm at a point where I can
> pretty easily set up any of these options, but if they don't turn out
> to actually be usable by the target audience, it's a bit of a waste of
> time! :-)
> 
> Thanks,
> Paul
> ___
> Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

As an *nix user I have a Windows 7 VM on my OS X machine that I can also
dual boot into which I mostly use for playing games that won’t play on
my OS X box natively. It does not have Python or any development tooling
installed on it.

I also have access to the cloud(tm) which is where I normally spin up
a whatever-the-most-recent-looking-name Windows Server.

---
Donald Stufft
PGP: 7C6B 7C5D 5E2B 6356 A926 F04F 6E3C BCE9 3372 DCFA

___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

[Distutils] Call for information - What assumptions can I make about Unix users' access to Windows?

[Paul Moore]

I'm in the process of developing an automated solution to allow users
to quickly set up a Windows box so that it can be used to compile
Python extensions and build wheels. While it can obviously be used by
Windows developers who want to quickly set up a box, my main target is
Unix developers who want to provide wheels for Windows users.

To that end, I'd like to get an idea of what sort of access to Windows
a typical Unix developer would have. I'm particularly interested in
whether Windows XP/Vista is still in use, and whether you're likely to
already have Python and/or any development tools installed. Ideally, a
clean Windows 7 or later virtual machine is the best environment, but
I don't know if it's reasonable to assume that.

Another alternative is to have an Amazon EC2 AMI prebuilt, and users
can just create an instance based on it. That seems pretty easy to do
from my perspective but I don't know if the connectivity process
(remote desktop) is a problem for Unix developers.

Any feedback would be extremely useful. I'm at a point where I can
pretty easily set up any of these options, but if they don't turn out
to actually be usable by the target audience, it's a bit of a waste of
time! :-)

Thanks,
Paul
___
Distutils-SIG maillist  -  Distutils-SIG@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig