Re: Apache people, Native Americans
I would also encourage people who are interested in *why* this is emotionally charged to read the book Chasing Shadows by Shelley Bowen Hatfield (no relation, as far as I know) about the complicated and often brutal history between the US Government, and the Apache and Yaqui people along the southern border of the USA in the years 1876-1911. The book is out of print, and might be hard to find, but was truly eye opening. Although, it looks like it's available here - https://www.amazon.com/Chasing-Shadows-Indians-States-Mexico-1876-1911/dp/0826318533/ - for a reasonable price. On 5/13/19 12:21 PM, Joan Touzet wrote: It depends which sub-group you are talking about, and whether you are referring to current or former relationships. The Jicarilla Apache in New Mexico actively refer to themselves as a Nation, as do the Yavapai-Apache Nation, the San Carlos Apache Nation and the Fort McDowell Yavapai Nation. Many other tribes do not use the term Nation, or are not referred to as a Nation by state or federal authorities (though they, themselves, may use the term). Some of this has resulted from being "downgraded" through the erosion of US treaty promises over the years, so the term is both nebulous and emotionally charged. For instance, some (US) historians use the term Nation only to refer to pre-forced removal Apache Nations. Legally, however, the terms nation, tribe, community, Rancheria and band have been used interchangeably in Indian treaties and statutes.[1] The fact that the term "Apache" applies to multiple subgroups of different sizes will make it difficult for us to get buy-in from all of them, and makes it unclear whether or not it makes sense to try. The fact also appears to be that we evolved from "a patchy server" to "Apache", and then co-opted the feather logo and colour scheme as our own, without asking and getting clear permission from even a subset first. That's a choice we have to live with today. On a more positive note, the San Carlos Apache Chamber of Commerce displays our logo and a link to our website on their website: http://www.sancarlosapache.com/Apache_Chamber_of_Commerce.htm I wouldn't call this outright endorsement, but I'd say it's at least a sign that there is no animosity. Let's not pick the scab off of this wound. -Joan "far too many Native American books on the shelf" Touzet [1]: Pevar, Stephen L. The Rights of Indians and Tribes. Fourth ed. Oxford: Oxford UP, 2012. On 2019-05-13 10:41, Matt Sicker wrote: According to Wikipedia, Apache are made up of several tribes. It doesn’t sound like an individual tribe, so “nation” sort of makes sense, though I’m not familiar with their specific terminology. On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 07:11, Rich Bowen wrote: On 5/13/19 12:11 AM, Kenneth Knowles wrote: "subscribe" This comes up for me pretty much every time I explain my work/life to someone who has not yet heard of the ASF (if they don't mention it, that is sort of worse). Reading Mark's comment I had the same question as Rich. I would very much like to know the answer and the details. I'm intrigued that it comes up every time (it almost never does, for me) and also that you think that it's bad when it doesn't (Why?). If this is something you consider important, I'd encourage you to take the references posted by Mark and run with them. Do the research. Ask Brian. See what you can find out. On 5/10/19 4:22 PM, Mark Thomas wrote: In the private archives I found: - A reference that at OSCON 09 a member of the Apache Nation politely mentioned that they should be referred to as the Apache Nation and not a tribe. Which is the opposite of the terminology used on their official website, https://mescaleroapachetribe.com/ The word "tribe" is one that I avoid, because people do feel that it has negative connotations. However, consistently over the years, I've seen that the people who are offended by it are, for the most part, not the people being referred to. -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com http://rcbowen.com/ @rbowen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org -- Matt Sicker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com http://rcbowen.com/ @rbowen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
Re: Apache people, Native Americans
It depends which sub-group you are talking about, and whether you are referring to current or former relationships. The Jicarilla Apache in New Mexico actively refer to themselves as a Nation, as do the Yavapai-Apache Nation, the San Carlos Apache Nation and the Fort McDowell Yavapai Nation. Many other tribes do not use the term Nation, or are not referred to as a Nation by state or federal authorities (though they, themselves, may use the term). Some of this has resulted from being "downgraded" through the erosion of US treaty promises over the years, so the term is both nebulous and emotionally charged. For instance, some (US) historians use the term Nation only to refer to pre-forced removal Apache Nations. Legally, however, the terms nation, tribe, community, Rancheria and band have been used interchangeably in Indian treaties and statutes.[1] The fact that the term "Apache" applies to multiple subgroups of different sizes will make it difficult for us to get buy-in from all of them, and makes it unclear whether or not it makes sense to try. The fact also appears to be that we evolved from "a patchy server" to "Apache", and then co-opted the feather logo and colour scheme as our own, without asking and getting clear permission from even a subset first. That's a choice we have to live with today. On a more positive note, the San Carlos Apache Chamber of Commerce displays our logo and a link to our website on their website: http://www.sancarlosapache.com/Apache_Chamber_of_Commerce.htm I wouldn't call this outright endorsement, but I'd say it's at least a sign that there is no animosity. Let's not pick the scab off of this wound. -Joan "far too many Native American books on the shelf" Touzet [1]: Pevar, Stephen L. The Rights of Indians and Tribes. Fourth ed. Oxford: Oxford UP, 2012. On 2019-05-13 10:41, Matt Sicker wrote: > According to Wikipedia, Apache are made up of several tribes. It doesn’t > sound like an individual tribe, so “nation” sort of makes sense, though I’m > not familiar with their specific terminology. > > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 07:11, Rich Bowen wrote: > >> >> >> On 5/13/19 12:11 AM, Kenneth Knowles wrote: >>> "subscribe" >>> >>> This comes up for me pretty much every time I explain my work/life to >>> someone who has not yet heard of the ASF (if they don't mention it, that >> is >>> sort of worse). Reading Mark's comment I had the same question as Rich. I >>> would very much like to know the answer and the details. >> >> I'm intrigued that it comes up every time (it almost never does, for me) >> and also that you think that it's bad when it doesn't (Why?). >> >> If this is something you consider important, I'd encourage you to take >> the references posted by Mark and run with them. Do the research. Ask >> Brian. See what you can find out. >> >>> On 5/10/19 4:22 PM, Mark Thomas wrote: >> In the private archives I found: >> >> - A reference that at OSCON 09 a member of the Apache Nation politely >>mentioned that they should be referred to as the Apache Nation and >>not a tribe. >> >> Which is the opposite of the terminology used on their official website, >> https://mescaleroapachetribe.com/ >> >> The word "tribe" is one that I avoid, because people do feel that it has >> negative connotations. However, consistently over the years, I've seen >> that the people who are offended by it are, for the most part, not the >> people being referred to. >> >> -- >> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com >> http://rcbowen.com/ >> @rbowen >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org >> >> -- > Matt Sicker > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
Re: Apache people, Native Americans
According to Wikipedia, Apache are made up of several tribes. It doesn’t sound like an individual tribe, so “nation” sort of makes sense, though I’m not familiar with their specific terminology. On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 07:11, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > On 5/13/19 12:11 AM, Kenneth Knowles wrote: > > "subscribe" > > > > This comes up for me pretty much every time I explain my work/life to > > someone who has not yet heard of the ASF (if they don't mention it, that > is > > sort of worse). Reading Mark's comment I had the same question as Rich. I > > would very much like to know the answer and the details. > > I'm intrigued that it comes up every time (it almost never does, for me) > and also that you think that it's bad when it doesn't (Why?). > > If this is something you consider important, I'd encourage you to take > the references posted by Mark and run with them. Do the research. Ask > Brian. See what you can find out. > > > On 5/10/19 4:22 PM, Mark Thomas wrote: > In the private archives I found: > > - A reference that at OSCON 09 a member of the Apache Nation politely > mentioned that they should be referred to as the Apache Nation and > not a tribe. > > Which is the opposite of the terminology used on their official website, > https://mescaleroapachetribe.com/ > > The word "tribe" is one that I avoid, because people do feel that it has > negative connotations. However, consistently over the years, I've seen > that the people who are offended by it are, for the most part, not the > people being referred to. > > -- > Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com > http://rcbowen.com/ > @rbowen > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > > -- Matt Sicker
Re: Apache people, Native Americans
On 5/13/19 12:11 AM, Kenneth Knowles wrote: "subscribe" This comes up for me pretty much every time I explain my work/life to someone who has not yet heard of the ASF (if they don't mention it, that is sort of worse). Reading Mark's comment I had the same question as Rich. I would very much like to know the answer and the details. I'm intrigued that it comes up every time (it almost never does, for me) and also that you think that it's bad when it doesn't (Why?). If this is something you consider important, I'd encourage you to take the references posted by Mark and run with them. Do the research. Ask Brian. See what you can find out. On 5/10/19 4:22 PM, Mark Thomas wrote: In the private archives I found: - A reference that at OSCON 09 a member of the Apache Nation politely mentioned that they should be referred to as the Apache Nation and not a tribe. Which is the opposite of the terminology used on their official website, https://mescaleroapachetribe.com/ The word "tribe" is one that I avoid, because people do feel that it has negative connotations. However, consistently over the years, I've seen that the people who are offended by it are, for the most part, not the people being referred to. -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com http://rcbowen.com/ @rbowen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
Re: Apache people, Native Americans
"subscribe" This comes up for me pretty much every time I explain my work/life to someone who has not yet heard of the ASF (if they don't mention it, that is sort of worse). Reading Mark's comment I had the same question as Rich. I would very much like to know the answer and the details. Kenn *From: *Rich Bowen *Date: *Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:30 AM *To: * Not that we are aware of. > > On Sun, May 12, 2019, 11:36 Matt Sicker wrote: > > > Is anyone from Apache Nation also a committer or member here? > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 03:45, Mark Thomas wrote: > > > > > On 11/05/2019 17:24, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/10/19 4:22 PM, Mark Thomas wrote: > > > >> For the record, years ago the ASF reached out to the relevant Native > > > >> Americans to check if they were happy with us using the name Apache > > and > > > >> they confirmed that they were. > > > > > > > > Mark, > > > > > > > > I've heard this stated. I've probably even said it myself from time > to > > > > time. But I have been completely unable to verify that this happened. > > If > > > > you (or anyone) has any actual "paper trail" of this happening, that > > > > would be remarkably helpful. > > > > > > The best I can find is a private mail from you related to LEGAL-284 > > > saying you had a vague memory that Brian Behlendorf had reached out. > > > > > > I'm sure I've heard it more than once. I'm still trying to track down > > > references... > > > > > > I found some public discussion of this issue back in 1995 on the httpd > > > dev list. > > > http://apache.markmail.org/thread/gfkjpxulyj4n3ozn > > > From that discussion: > > > - a) folks were aware of the potential issue > > > - b) no offence was intended > > > - c) no-one had reached out at that point > > > > > > Use useful background from Roy: > > > http://markmail.org/message/inlm4kp6wuyoqrqx > > > > > > A link from the public archives: > > > > > > > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/423c17fa19fd2564a6520ff21776d54e242c08d3612561f05bd87f58@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E > > > > > > In the private archives I found: > > > > > > - A reference that at OSCON 09 a member of the Apache Nation politely > > > mentioned that they should be referred to as the Apache Nation and > > > not a tribe. > > > > > > > > > In summary, I can't find a definitive first-hand account of a formal > > > discussion between the ASF and representatives of the Apache Nation. > > > > > > I can find a handful of interactions between the ASF and people who > > > identify as a member of the Apache Nation. None of those has indicated > > > that they have an issue with the ASF's use of "Apache". > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > - > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > > > > > > -- > > Matt Sicker > > >
Re: Apache people, Native Americans
Not that we are aware of. On Sun, May 12, 2019, 11:36 Matt Sicker wrote: > Is anyone from Apache Nation also a committer or member here? > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 03:45, Mark Thomas wrote: > > > On 11/05/2019 17:24, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 5/10/19 4:22 PM, Mark Thomas wrote: > > >> For the record, years ago the ASF reached out to the relevant Native > > >> Americans to check if they were happy with us using the name Apache > and > > >> they confirmed that they were. > > > > > > Mark, > > > > > > I've heard this stated. I've probably even said it myself from time to > > > time. But I have been completely unable to verify that this happened. > If > > > you (or anyone) has any actual "paper trail" of this happening, that > > > would be remarkably helpful. > > > > The best I can find is a private mail from you related to LEGAL-284 > > saying you had a vague memory that Brian Behlendorf had reached out. > > > > I'm sure I've heard it more than once. I'm still trying to track down > > references... > > > > I found some public discussion of this issue back in 1995 on the httpd > > dev list. > > http://apache.markmail.org/thread/gfkjpxulyj4n3ozn > > From that discussion: > > - a) folks were aware of the potential issue > > - b) no offence was intended > > - c) no-one had reached out at that point > > > > Use useful background from Roy: > > http://markmail.org/message/inlm4kp6wuyoqrqx > > > > A link from the public archives: > > > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/423c17fa19fd2564a6520ff21776d54e242c08d3612561f05bd87f58@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E > > > > In the private archives I found: > > > > - A reference that at OSCON 09 a member of the Apache Nation politely > > mentioned that they should be referred to as the Apache Nation and > > not a tribe. > > > > > > In summary, I can't find a definitive first-hand account of a formal > > discussion between the ASF and representatives of the Apache Nation. > > > > I can find a handful of interactions between the ASF and people who > > identify as a member of the Apache Nation. None of those has indicated > > that they have an issue with the ASF's use of "Apache". > > > > Mark > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > > > > -- > Matt Sicker >
Re: Apache people, Native Americans
Is anyone from Apache Nation also a committer or member here? On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 03:45, Mark Thomas wrote: > On 11/05/2019 17:24, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > > > > On 5/10/19 4:22 PM, Mark Thomas wrote: > >> For the record, years ago the ASF reached out to the relevant Native > >> Americans to check if they were happy with us using the name Apache and > >> they confirmed that they were. > > > > Mark, > > > > I've heard this stated. I've probably even said it myself from time to > > time. But I have been completely unable to verify that this happened. If > > you (or anyone) has any actual "paper trail" of this happening, that > > would be remarkably helpful. > > The best I can find is a private mail from you related to LEGAL-284 > saying you had a vague memory that Brian Behlendorf had reached out. > > I'm sure I've heard it more than once. I'm still trying to track down > references... > > I found some public discussion of this issue back in 1995 on the httpd > dev list. > http://apache.markmail.org/thread/gfkjpxulyj4n3ozn > From that discussion: > - a) folks were aware of the potential issue > - b) no offence was intended > - c) no-one had reached out at that point > > Use useful background from Roy: > http://markmail.org/message/inlm4kp6wuyoqrqx > > A link from the public archives: > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/423c17fa19fd2564a6520ff21776d54e242c08d3612561f05bd87f58@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E > > In the private archives I found: > > - A reference that at OSCON 09 a member of the Apache Nation politely > mentioned that they should be referred to as the Apache Nation and > not a tribe. > > > In summary, I can't find a definitive first-hand account of a formal > discussion between the ASF and representatives of the Apache Nation. > > I can find a handful of interactions between the ASF and people who > identify as a member of the Apache Nation. None of those has indicated > that they have an issue with the ASF's use of "Apache". > > Mark > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > > -- Matt Sicker
Re: Apache people, Native Americans
On 11/05/2019 17:24, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > On 5/10/19 4:22 PM, Mark Thomas wrote: >> For the record, years ago the ASF reached out to the relevant Native >> Americans to check if they were happy with us using the name Apache and >> they confirmed that they were. > > Mark, > > I've heard this stated. I've probably even said it myself from time to > time. But I have been completely unable to verify that this happened. If > you (or anyone) has any actual "paper trail" of this happening, that > would be remarkably helpful. The best I can find is a private mail from you related to LEGAL-284 saying you had a vague memory that Brian Behlendorf had reached out. I'm sure I've heard it more than once. I'm still trying to track down references... I found some public discussion of this issue back in 1995 on the httpd dev list. http://apache.markmail.org/thread/gfkjpxulyj4n3ozn >From that discussion: - a) folks were aware of the potential issue - b) no offence was intended - c) no-one had reached out at that point Use useful background from Roy: http://markmail.org/message/inlm4kp6wuyoqrqx A link from the public archives: https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/423c17fa19fd2564a6520ff21776d54e242c08d3612561f05bd87f58@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E In the private archives I found: - A reference that at OSCON 09 a member of the Apache Nation politely mentioned that they should be referred to as the Apache Nation and not a tribe. In summary, I can't find a definitive first-hand account of a formal discussion between the ASF and representatives of the Apache Nation. I can find a handful of interactions between the ASF and people who identify as a member of the Apache Nation. None of those has indicated that they have an issue with the ASF's use of "Apache". Mark - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
Re: Apache people, Native Americans
On 5/10/19 4:22 PM, Mark Thomas wrote: For the record, years ago the ASF reached out to the relevant Native Americans to check if they were happy with us using the name Apache and they confirmed that they were. Mark, I've heard this stated. I've probably even said it myself from time to time. But I have been completely unable to verify that this happened. If you (or anyone) has any actual "paper trail" of this happening, that would be remarkably helpful. -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com http://rcbowen.com/ @rbowen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
