Re: Why doesn't DjangoProject.com downloads provide a Windows installer like web2py does?

2012-12-23 Thread Michael Manfre 
As some one who develops and hosts a Django project on Windows, Runserver 
and sqlite are more than enough to get potential Django converts through 
the tutorial and a few test projects. When they're ready to work on a more 
substantial project, then they'll start to get a bit more immersed in 
database choices, hosting, and all the other tools that help make the 
workflow a bit less clunky.

One of the biggest problems I've encountered with the open source project 
installers for Windows is that they lag behind, most likely being more 
effort than the community is able to devote towards the windows installer. 
Even Apache httpd is facing this with 2.4. Having an outdated Windows 
installer can be more off putting than having no installer at all. I've 
ignored projects for that reason in the past; memcached was one of those 
projects for a while.

I think Windows users would be better served with a little bit more 
documentation about getting up and running on Windows. To start the 
tutorial you only really need to install python, install setuptools, and 
then install django. Providing some insight about tools that are mostly the 
equivalent to those available on *nix platforms would be useful as the new 
user progresses beyond the tutorial. I'd be willing to help with a 
documentation effort, primarily by answering questions since I'm not sure 
if I have enough availability to do much more than that. 

The slides from my "Django on Windows" PyCarolinas talk might be helpful 
for some Windows users after they get past the initial install. 
http://manfre.github.com/django-on-windows-talk/

Having a linux VM dedicated to Django development was painfully slow on my 
modestly powered desktop. Any benefits were quickly lost by a laggy UI. It 
might have been better if I was able to get a folder mapped so I could use 
an editor on the host Windows system, but I deleted the VM prior to 
devoting enough time to figure that out.

Regards,
Michael Manfre



On Saturday, December 22, 2012 7:28:39 PM UTC-5, Kevin Veroneau wrote:
>
> I am posting this here as I feel it is related to the development of 
> Django, since it is related to it's distribution to end-users.
>
> Something that web2py has provided for a long time is a nice Windows 
> installer to help Windows users start using web2py right away with 
> zero-effort, similar to how WAMP works for PHP developers on Windows.
>
> I believe, it would be most beneficial for the Django website to provide 
> such an option.  I bet most Windows users who hear about Django visit the 
> website, but don't see a download link for their system.  These users will 
> either seek help on how to set it up or it will deter them from exploring 
> Django further.  The latter is what we, as a community do not want to see.  
> We would like prospect developers to at least explore the development 
> environment and see what it's all about before making the choice of not 
> using it
>
> For a time, there was a project called InstantDjango, it wasn't very well 
> known, but it did the job of containing a Python/Django installation into a 
> single directory which was portable and be easily deleted or moved onto a 
> USB drive.  The project maintainer has since removed the website from 
> existence, along with the tutorials and download links he provided.  
> Fortunately, I retained a copy of this and now host it on my blog with an 
> updated version of Django.
>
> With the guidance of the main Django developers, I would like to perfect a 
> distributable Windows installer for the greater Django community.  Perhaps 
> starting with Django 1.5, the community can also provide an easy Windows 
> installer for test driving Django on a Windows machine, and for local 
> Windows development.  I can volunteer to maintain this port, with guidance 
> from the other developers on how to distribute it and package it.  The goal 
> of this is to provide Windows users with an option to test drive Python and 
> Django with minimal knowledge and risks.  Installing Python and Django in 
> Windows does require a fair amount of work and command-line knowledge, 
> which may scare some Windows users away from this great framework.  Think 
> of how easy WAMP is to install and use for PHP developers, I want Django to 
> have this ease of use as well.
>
> Disclaimer:  I am a full-time Debian Linux user, but have attempted to 
> install Python/Django on Windows in the past.  I can understand what some 
> Windows users go through during this ordeal.
>
> Link to retained InstantDjango(for example purposes): 
> http://www.pythondiary.com/blog/Apr.10,2012/instant-django-release-information.html
> I plan on updating this InstantDjango with Django 1.5, and using 
> distribute over setuptools.  Current Download count: 1461
>
> Best Regards,
>   Kevin Veroneau
>

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Re: Why doesn't DjangoProject.com downloads provide a Windows installer like web2py does?

2012-12-23 Thread Daniel Greenfeld 
On Sunday, December 23, 2012 9:45:46 AM UTC-8, ted wrote:
>
> This has lead me to the belief that a virtual linux box is the "right way" 
> to develop on django on windows.  On its face, adding a virtualbox/vagrant 
> setup step makes using django more complicated.  But, on net it makes the 
> first few days on django windows a lot faster/easier/better/less stressful 
> because you don't get the ecosystem issues Jason talked about.  Not to 
> mention making dev/prod parity better, which while a newcomer might not 
> understand they will appreciate in the long run.




I have to step in and strong object to Virtualbox as the 'right way' for 
Django on windows. I've made this argument plenty of times.

I've taught enough introductory classes and worked with enough people on 
Windows over the years to know that a huge number of beginning developers 
around the world are running on less than adequate machines. Python, 
Django, and SQLite3 have a low footprint that even an ancient computers can 
handle them easily. 

On the other hand, VirtualBox has a significant footprint. Older machines 
so frequently owned by beginning developers often do not have the resources 
to run VirtualBox without slowing down to unacceptable levels. Forcing 
beginning developers to play in VirtualBox will exclude a lot of incoming 
talent, especially in less privileged areas of the world. 

Which would be a terrible shame.

The solution is to make the Python installation story on Windows easier. 
It's not the fun or easy answer, and maybe we need to convince Microsoft to 
throw money and resources at the problem. Since Python and Django supported 
on Azure, this may be the perfect time to make such a request.


-- 
'Knowledge is Power'
Daniel Greenfeld
http://pydanny.com

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Re: Django Admin Revamp - Any updates?

2012-12-23 Thread Amirouche Boubekki 
2012/12/24 Victor Hooi 

> Hi,
>
> What happened to django-hydro?
>

Héllo Victor,

I moved everything to an orgnanization named django-composite, I took the
name from *Travis S. *from the wiki, thanks to him, I find it great, it is
exactly that: https://github.com/django-composite/django-composite-admin

That said I didn't push for sometime now. I will probably make a
mini-annoucement on the user list so that people can give their feedback
regarding current admin solutions and AdminNext.

I prepared a presentation, so you might want to look at it:
https://speakerdeck.com/amiramazig/django-composite

Spoiler: It's somekind of
HMVC
or
since Django use MVT name, HMVT. So far it has been proven overkill for the
admin, but can be useful for middly complex widgets (Modal, Caroussel,
Collapse), at least it looks promising to me, I don't have editing yet, so
I will probably send a mail once this is done.

Thanks for your interest,

Amirouche

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Re: Django Admin Revamp - Any updates?

2012-12-23 Thread Victor Hooi 
Hi,

What happened to django-hydro?

Cheers,
Victor

On Saturday, 22 December 2012 14:27:38 UTC+11, Amirouche B. wrote:
>
>
> 2012/12/15 Amirouche B. >
>
>> Is there any news on the Django Admin rewrite front?

>>>
>>> I'm very interested in this topic and have some time to kill so I 
>>> started the wiki page don't hesitate to comment, correct, review and add 
>>> you own ideas.
>>>
>>
>> I made POC of django-hydro the widget composition framework using 
>> bootstrap, it's available at https://github.com/amirouche/django-hydro
>>
>> Could you provide more insights about the issues you encounter while 
>> using and trying to extend the admin or better update the wiki page 
>> https://code.djangoproject.**com/wiki/HydroAdmin
>>  or 
>> I'll add them myself.
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> I moved the page to AdminNext, did a bit of cleaning and added other admin 
> apps, link https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/AdminNext
>
> Happy Holidays,
>
> Amirouche
>  
>

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Re: Proposal: use SQLAlchemy Core for query generation

2012-12-23 Thread Donald Stufft 
On Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Florent Gallaire wrote: 
> Django ORM should work for SQL and NoSQL DBMS.
> NoSQL integration in Django is a more interesting and needed subject,
> but who cares about that in the core team ?
> 
> 

Why should the Django Object Relational Mapper be modified to
work with non relational databases? Trying to shoe horn random NoSQL
into the Django ORM feels like a bad idea.  

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Re: Proposal: use SQLAlchemy Core for query generation

2012-12-23 Thread Hannu Krosing 

On 12/23/2012 10:08 PM, Florent Gallaire wrote:

SQLA is, as is its name indicates, a SQL ORM.
Django ORM should work for SQL and NoSQL DBMS.

Why? Because of name ?

NoSQL integration in Django is a more interesting and needed subject,
but who cares about that in the core team ?

There is no single NoSQL to integrate.

NoSQL is either simple key/value store or has a different
(arguably also Structured) Query Language with similar but
often limited functionality.

Most major NoSQL databases for which it makes sense have at
least some form of Django integration.

Hannu



-1

Cheers, Florent.

On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 4:19 AM, Ivan  wrote:

вторник, 4 декабря 2012 г., 0:48:04 UTC+2 пользователь Ivan написал:

Allows to use both, Django-ORM + SQLAlchemy. Single connection.
SQLAlchemy's models are generated automatically form Django's models.
https://github.com/Deepwalker/aldjemy


Sorry for bad link. This is the correct link:
https://github.com/Deepwalker/aldjemy

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Re: Single table inheritance - working implementation

2012-12-23 Thread Krzysztof Jurewicz 
Dnia 2012-12-21, pią o godzinie 11:05 -0800, Anssi Kääriäinen pisze:
> I went with a different approach than the patch for 1.5. At this stage
> as minimal as possible change to get_default_columns() seemed like a
> good idea. See commit a0155f35343afbfd9e98ab9aa4615f06780f697e in
> stable/1.5.x.
> 
> I patched only 1.5.x. Master will get soon different handling of the
> parent model joining in get_default_columns(). The taken approach in
> master should still allow typedmodels to work. See:
> https://github.com/akaariai/django/compare/names_to_path_to_fields#L3L254
> 
> If you have still problems in 1.5.x please tell us soon. There isn't
> too much time before the release.

Thanks for the patch, it seems to do the job - all tests pass (including
two I added today), both on 1.5.x and on 1.4.x. _fill_fields_cache still
has to be monkeypatched (I've also added similar patch for
_fill_m2m_cache), but this is no change comparing to the previous state.

I haven't yet looked through changes from your names_to_path_to_fields
branch, but tests pass on it too, which is promising.

Regards,
Krzysztof

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Re: Proposal: use SQLAlchemy Core for query generation

2012-12-23 Thread Florent Gallaire 
SQLA is, as is its name indicates, a SQL ORM.
Django ORM should work for SQL and NoSQL DBMS.
NoSQL integration in Django is a more interesting and needed subject,
but who cares about that in the core team ?

-1

Cheers, Florent.

On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 4:19 AM, Ivan  wrote:
> вторник, 4 декабря 2012 г., 0:48:04 UTC+2 пользователь Ivan написал:
>>
>> Allows to use both, Django-ORM + SQLAlchemy. Single connection.
>> SQLAlchemy's models are generated automatically form Django's models.
>> https://github.com/Deepwalker/aldjemy
>
>
> Sorry for bad link. This is the correct link:
> https://github.com/Deepwalker/aldjemy
>
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Re: Why doesn't DjangoProject.com downloads provide a Windows installer like web2py does?

2012-12-23 Thread ted 
I've developed django on windows for about three/four years now using a 
virtualbox/vagrant Ubuntu server for my django stuff.  I've also worked 
with people who have tried to get django working in a "bare" windows 
environment.  I've seen things that just work in a linux machine fail and 
require painful configuration and patching on windows -- including a multi 
hour stretch tracking down a cryptic error message coming from the mysql 
binding.

This has lead me to the belief that a virtual linux box is the "right way" 
to develop on django on windows.  On its face, adding a virtualbox/vagrant 
setup step makes using django more complicated.  But, on net it makes the 
first few days on django windows a lot faster/easier/better/less stressful 
because you don't get the ecosystem issues Jason talked about.  Not to 
mention making dev/prod parity better, which while a newcomer might not 
understand they will appreciate in the long run.

It would be important to make sure the docs are sufficiently clear that 
using a virtual linux box is the "best way to start" vs "the only way." A 
callout saying something like "You can set up django in a bare windows 
environment, but it is not recommended for beginners" would be very useful. 

The getting started with django project is using vagrant as their suggested 
virtualization technology, though from what I've seen they might be 
targeting mac users.

Kevin -- It seems you're proposing two separate things.  1) portable django 
-- that is a copy of django you can run from a pen drive and 2) a getting 
started with django on windows installer.  Do you think they both have to 
exist at the same time?

James -- I agree that django is becoming a python entry point, and would 
love to see django docs/tutorials do more to acknowledge that python might 
be new.  

Ted 

On Sunday, December 23, 2012 12:12:18 AM UTC-5, Jason Goldstein wrote:
>
> I'm jumping in because I initially learned Django on Windows, and used it 
> for development for almost two years.
>
> I don't think this is a Django issue. As a beginner, the things that 
> really messed with me weren't Django specific - they were parts of the 
> Python ecosystem that are just terrible on Windows. Finding the right 
> Python-MySQL installer (there are bugs in setuptools that means you can't 
> pip install anything with C-extensions), is hard and makes no sense. 
> Downloading the tar and running setup.py install (the instructions you see 
> on the download page) was the easy part.
>
> So at least from my point of view, if you want to make Django easier for 
> Windows users to get started on, the best target is an easier way to get a 
> sane Python environment on Windows without digging through blog posts and 
> trying to find the right installers for every package with C-extensions. 
> After that, "pip install django, startproject, runserver" are easy 
> instructions to follow even if you're not familiar with the command line.
>
> Cheers,
> Jason
>
>
> On Saturday, December 22, 2012 7:38:25 PM UTC-5, James Bennett wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 6:28 PM, Kevin Veroneau  
>> wrote: 
>> > I believe, it would be most beneficial for the Django website to 
>> provide 
>> > such an option.  I bet most Windows users who hear about Django visit 
>> the 
>> > website, but don't see a download link for their system.  These users 
>> will 
>> > either seek help on how to set it up or it will deter them from 
>> exploring 
>> > Django further.  The latter is what we, as a community do not want to 
>> see. 
>> > We would like prospect developers to at least explore the development 
>> > environment and see what it's all about before making the choice of not 
>> > using it 
>>
>> My own personal opinion on this kind of issue is, basically, that like 
>> it or not Django is becoming the introduction to Python for a lot of 
>> people. That means there's a responsibility to get those new users 
>> started off in a way that will let them stick to Python even if they 
>> don't stick to Django. And that in turn requires a balance between 
>> making things as simple as possible, and making sure we're teaching 
>> reusable skills; I'd like to think that if someone tries Django and 
>> doesn't like it, but does like Python, they'll come out of the install 
>> and tutorial with enough knowledge to be able to go download and 
>> install other Python-based software. 
>>
>> One way to accomplish that is to be a bit more up-front about how to 
>> install packaged Python software; that way, when a new user does 
>> decide to try something else, they don't suddenly hit a wall of "wow 
>> this is so much harder" -- instead it's "oh, this works the same way". 
>> And in general I think it's not too much of a burden on users, 
>> provided we keep the install docs well-written and up-to-date. 
>>
>> (the other side of the balancing act, of course, is that we don't go 
>> into stuff like pip, virtual environments, etc. which are also 
>> incr