Re: Translation templatetag aliases

2019-07-27 Thread Aymeric Augustin
Hello,

I'm in favor of adding support for {% translate %} and {% blocktranslate %} and 
switching the Django documentation to use these for two reasons:

- As stated by Mike, the mental associations that "block trans" creates for 
those who identify as trans are just bad — I can't believe it took us 12 years 
to notice :-/
- Even if we leave that aside, I'm not sure saving 4 characters (8 with the 
closing tag) is really worth the uncommon abbreviation of "translate".

Since this change brings mostly a social benefit rather than a technical 
benefit, we could keep the {% trans %} and {% blocktrans %} aliases forever. 
Also, this could minimize arguments between those who recognize the benefits of 
such changes and those who don't, as we've seen when we changed master / slave 
to primary / replica.

In my opinion, such debates mostly reflect the political rift that appeared in 
many Western countries in the recent years. It's completely predictable that 
they spill into our community. Since they aren't our main focus, we're trying 
to avoid spending too much time there. But we can't escape the fact that we're 
making Django first for people writing software, then for computers running 
that software.

As a community, we chose to state in our Code of Conduct that "we strive to be 
a community that welcomes and supports people of all backgrounds and identities 
[including] sexual orientation, gender identity and expression". I believe that 
the change proposed here is in line with this statement. I know that some 
community members will feel that we're doing too much here — and that others 
feel that we aren't doing enough in general — which is why I'm referencing 
something we already agreed upon.

Best regards,

-- 
Aymeric.



> On 26 Jul 2019, at 13:17, 'Mike Hansen' via Django developers (Contributions 
> to Django itself)  wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> Recently I had a member of my team bring up that it was uncomfortable
> for them to work in parts of our codebase where they regularly had to
> see "blocktrans" in the template files.  To make our work environment
> more inclusive, I wrote a Django package 
>  which adds "translate" 
> and 
> "blocktranslate" templatetag aliases so that we could update our own 
> internal templates to use these.
> 
> We felt that this change would be in line with the Django community
> so I made a ticket and pull request to Django at
> https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/30585 
>  .  The ticket was closed as
> "wontfix", and it was mentioned that I should bring it to django-developers
> if I wanted to make further progress on the ticket.
> 
> Thanks,
> --Mike
> 
> 
> -- 
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>  
> .

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Re: Translation templatetag aliases

2019-07-27 Thread Adam Johnson
+1 from me too for the reasons that Aymeric states.

Another small pro: "translate" is a few more characters to type, but it
should make it easier to understand the purpose of the tags to newcomers.
"trans" is a prefix used for many words - Wiktionary lists 609:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_words_prefixed_with_trans- .
I guess quite a few Django apps out there have *some* domain term on this
list, so using the full word "translate" can help differentiate the tags
from those other concepts.

On Sat, 27 Jul 2019 at 09:51, Aymeric Augustin <
aymeric.augus...@polytechnique.org> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm in favor of adding support for {% translate %} and {% blocktranslate
> %} and switching the Django documentation to use these for two reasons:
>
> - As stated by Mike, the mental associations that "block trans" creates
> for those who identify as trans are just bad — I can't believe it took us
> 12 years to notice :-/
> - Even if we leave that aside, I'm not sure saving 4 characters (8 with
> the closing tag) is really worth the uncommon abbreviation of "translate".
>
> Since this change brings mostly a social benefit rather than a technical
> benefit, we could keep the {% trans %} and {% blocktrans %} aliases
> forever. Also, this could minimize arguments between those who recognize
> the benefits of such changes and those who don't, as we've seen when we
> changed master / slave to primary / replica.
>
> In my opinion, such debates mostly reflect the political rift that
> appeared in many Western countries in the recent years. It's completely
> predictable that they spill into our community. Since they aren't our main
> focus, we're trying to avoid spending too much time there. But we can't
> escape the fact that we're making Django first for people writing software,
> then for computers running that software.
>
> As a community, we chose to state in our Code of Conduct that "we strive
> to be a community that welcomes and supports people of all backgrounds and
> identities [including] sexual orientation, gender identity and expression".
> I believe that the change proposed here is in line with this statement. I
> know that some community members will feel that we're doing too much here —
> and that others feel that we aren't doing enough in general — which is why
> I'm referencing something we already agreed upon.
>
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Aymeric.
>
>
>
> On 26 Jul 2019, at 13:17, 'Mike Hansen' via Django developers
> (Contributions to Django itself) 
> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> Recently I had a member of my team bring up that it was uncomfortable
> for them to work in parts of our codebase where they regularly had to
> see "blocktrans" in the template files.  To make our work environment
> more inclusive, I wrote a Django package
>  which adds
> "translate" and
> "blocktranslate" templatetag aliases so that we could update our own
> internal templates to use these.
>
> We felt that this change would be in line with the Django community
> so I made a ticket and pull request to Django at
> https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/30585 .  The ticket was closed as
> "wontfix", and it was mentioned that I should bring it to django-developers
> if I wanted to make further progress on the ticket.
>
> Thanks,
> --Mike
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/a43ec0ab-f73a-4c11-8fc1-b05d081b24c3%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>
>
> --
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> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/EF4EE680-BBA1-40EB-979E-2671349186D6%40polytechnique.org
> 
> .
>


-- 
Adam

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Re: Translation templatetag aliases

2019-07-27 Thread Markus Holtermann
Easy: +1 from me as well for reasons state before.

/Markus

On Sat, Jul 27, 2019, at 6:15 PM, Adam Johnson wrote:
> +1 from me too for the reasons that Aymeric states.
> 
> Another small pro: "translate" is a few more characters to type, but it 
> should make it easier to understand the purpose of the tags to 
> newcomers. "trans" is a prefix used for many words - Wiktionary lists 
> 609: 
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_words_prefixed_with_trans- . 
> I guess quite a few Django apps out there have *some* domain term on this 
> list, so using the full word "translate" can help differentiate the tags from 
> those other concepts.
> 
> On Sat, 27 Jul 2019 at 09:51, Aymeric Augustin 
>  wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I'm in favor of adding support for {% translate %} and {% blocktranslate %} 
> > and switching the Django documentation to use these for two reasons:
> > 
> > - As stated by Mike, the mental associations that "block trans" creates for 
> > those who identify as trans are just bad — I can't believe it took us 12 
> > years to notice :-/
> > - Even if we leave that aside, I'm not sure saving 4 characters (8 with the 
> > closing tag) is really worth the uncommon abbreviation of "translate".
> > 
> > Since this change brings mostly a social benefit rather than a technical 
> > benefit, we could keep the {% trans %} and {% blocktrans %} aliases 
> > forever. Also, this could minimize arguments between those who recognize 
> > the benefits of such changes and those who don't, as we've seen when we 
> > changed master / slave to primary / replica.
> > 
> > In my opinion, such debates mostly reflect the political rift that appeared 
> > in many Western countries in the recent years. It's completely predictable 
> > that they spill into our community. Since they aren't our main focus, we're 
> > trying to avoid spending too much time there. But we can't escape the fact 
> > that we're making Django first for people writing software, then for 
> > computers running that software.
> > 
> > As a community, we chose to state in our Code of Conduct that "we strive to 
> > be a community that welcomes and supports people of all backgrounds and 
> > identities [including] sexual orientation, gender identity and expression". 
> > I believe that the change proposed here is in line with this statement. I 
> > know that some community members will feel that we're doing too much here — 
> > and that others feel that we aren't doing enough in general — which is why 
> > I'm referencing something we already agreed upon.
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > 
> > -- 
> > Aymeric.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> On 26 Jul 2019, at 13:17, 'Mike Hansen' via Django developers 
> >> (Contributions to Django itself)  
> >> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Hello all,
> >> 
> >> Recently I had a member of my team bring up that it was uncomfortable
> >> for them to work in parts of our codebase where they regularly had to
> >> see "blocktrans" in the template files. To make our work environment
> >> more inclusive, I wrote a Django package 
> >>  which adds 
> >> "translate" and 
> >> "blocktranslate" templatetag aliases so that we could update our own 
> >> internal templates to use these.
> >> 
> >> We felt that this change would be in line with the Django community
> >> so I made a ticket and pull request to Django at
> >> https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/30585 . The ticket was closed as
> >> "wontfix", and it was mentioned that I should bring it to django-developers
> >> if I wanted to make further progress on the ticket.
> >> 
> >> Thanks,
> >> --Mike
> >> 
> >> 
> >>  -- 
> >>  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> >> "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
> >>  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> >> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> >>  To view this discussion on the web visit 
> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/a43ec0ab-f73a-4c11-8fc1-b05d081b24c3%40googlegroups.com
> >>  
> >> .
> > 
> 
> >  -- 
> >  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> > "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
> >  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> > email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> >  To view this discussion on the web visit 
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/EF4EE680-BBA1-40EB-979E-2671349186D6%40polytechnique.org
> >  
> > .
> 
> 
> -- 
> Adam
> 
>  -- 
>  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "Dja

Re: Translation templatetag aliases

2019-07-27 Thread Andrew Godwin
I agree too. Let's change it.

Andrew

On Sat, Jul 27, 2019 at 4:03 AM Markus Holtermann 
wrote:

> Easy: +1 from me as well for reasons state before.
>
> /Markus
>
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2019, at 6:15 PM, Adam Johnson wrote:
> > +1 from me too for the reasons that Aymeric states.
> >
> > Another small pro: "translate" is a few more characters to type, but it
> > should make it easier to understand the purpose of the tags to
> > newcomers. "trans" is a prefix used for many words - Wiktionary lists
> > 609:
> >
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_words_prefixed_with_trans-
> . I guess quite a few Django apps out there have *some* domain term on this
> list, so using the full word "translate" can help differentiate the tags
> from those other concepts.
> >
> > On Sat, 27 Jul 2019 at 09:51, Aymeric Augustin
> >  wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I'm in favor of adding support for {% translate %} and {%
> blocktranslate %} and switching the Django documentation to use these for
> two reasons:
> > >
> > > - As stated by Mike, the mental associations that "block trans"
> creates for those who identify as trans are just bad — I can't believe it
> took us 12 years to notice :-/
> > > - Even if we leave that aside, I'm not sure saving 4 characters (8
> with the closing tag) is really worth the uncommon abbreviation of
> "translate".
> > >
> > > Since this change brings mostly a social benefit rather than a
> technical benefit, we could keep the {% trans %} and {% blocktrans %}
> aliases forever. Also, this could minimize arguments between those who
> recognize the benefits of such changes and those who don't, as we've seen
> when we changed master / slave to primary / replica.
> > >
> > > In my opinion, such debates mostly reflect the political rift that
> appeared in many Western countries in the recent years. It's completely
> predictable that they spill into our community. Since they aren't our main
> focus, we're trying to avoid spending too much time there. But we can't
> escape the fact that we're making Django first for people writing software,
> then for computers running that software.
> > >
> > > As a community, we chose to state in our Code of Conduct that "we
> strive to be a community that welcomes and supports people of all
> backgrounds and identities [including] sexual orientation, gender identity
> and expression". I believe that the change proposed here is in line with
> this statement. I know that some community members will feel that we're
> doing too much here — and that others feel that we aren't doing enough in
> general — which is why I'm referencing something we already agreed upon.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > --
> > > Aymeric.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On 26 Jul 2019, at 13:17, 'Mike Hansen' via Django developers
> (Contributions to Django itself) 
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hello all,
> > >>
> > >> Recently I had a member of my team bring up that it was uncomfortable
> > >> for them to work in parts of our codebase where they regularly had to
> > >> see "blocktrans" in the template files. To make our work environment
> > >> more inclusive, I wrote a Django package <
> https://pypi.org/project/django-translation-aliases/> which adds
> "translate" and
> > >> "blocktranslate" templatetag aliases so that we could update our own
> > >> internal templates to use these.
> > >>
> > >> We felt that this change would be in line with the Django community
> > >> so I made a ticket and pull request to Django at
> > >> https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/30585 . The ticket was closed
> as
> > >> "wontfix", and it was mentioned that I should bring it to
> django-developers
> > >> if I wanted to make further progress on the ticket.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> --Mike
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>  --
> > >>  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
> > >>  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > >>  To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/a43ec0ab-f73a-4c11-8fc1-b05d081b24c3%40googlegroups.com
> <
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/a43ec0ab-f73a-4c11-8fc1-b05d081b24c3%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> >.
> > >
> >
> > >  --
> > >  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
> > >  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > >  To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/EF4EE680-BBA1-40EB-979E-2671349186D6%40polytechnique.org
> <
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/EF4EE680-BBA1-40EB-979E-2671349186D6%40polytechnique.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> >.
> >
> >

Re: Translation templatetag aliases

2019-07-27 Thread Florian Apolloner
Not opposed to changing it, but would make {% translateblock %} more sense 
than {% blocktranslate %}?

On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 10:51:35 AM UTC+2, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm in favor of adding support for {% translate %} and {% blocktranslate 
> %} and switching the Django documentation to use these for two reasons:
>
> - As stated by Mike, the mental associations that "block trans" creates 
> for those who identify as trans are just bad — I can't believe it took us 
> 12 years to notice :-/
> - Even if we leave that aside, I'm not sure saving 4 characters (8 with 
> the closing tag) is really worth the uncommon abbreviation of "translate".
>
> Since this change brings mostly a social benefit rather than a technical 
> benefit, we could keep the {% trans %} and {% blocktrans %} aliases 
> forever. Also, this could minimize arguments between those who recognize 
> the benefits of such changes and those who don't, as we've seen when we 
> changed master / slave to primary / replica.
>
> In my opinion, such debates mostly reflect the political rift that 
> appeared in many Western countries in the recent years. It's completely 
> predictable that they spill into our community. Since they aren't our main 
> focus, we're trying to avoid spending too much time there. But we can't 
> escape the fact that we're making Django first for people writing software, 
> then for computers running that software.
>
> As a community, we chose to state in our Code of Conduct that "we strive 
> to be a community that welcomes and supports people of all backgrounds and 
> identities [including] sexual orientation, gender identity and expression". 
> I believe that the change proposed here is in line with this statement. I 
> know that some community members will feel that we're doing too much here — 
> and that others feel that we aren't doing enough in general — which is why 
> I'm referencing something we already agreed upon.
>
> Best regards,
>
> -- 
> Aymeric.
>
>
>
> On 26 Jul 2019, at 13:17, 'Mike Hansen' via Django developers 
> (Contributions to Django itself)  > wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> Recently I had a member of my team bring up that it was uncomfortable
> for them to work in parts of our codebase where they regularly had to
> see "blocktrans" in the template files.  To make our work environment
> more inclusive, I wrote a Django package 
>  which adds 
> "translate" and 
> "blocktranslate" templatetag aliases so that we could update our own 
> internal templates to use these.
>
> We felt that this change would be in line with the Django community
> so I made a ticket and pull request to Django at
> https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/30585 .  The ticket was closed as
> "wontfix", and it was mentioned that I should bring it to django-developers
> if I wanted to make further progress on the ticket.
>
> Thanks,
> --Mike
>
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to django-d...@googlegroups.com .
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/a43ec0ab-f73a-4c11-8fc1-b05d081b24c3%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
>
>

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Re: Translation templatetag aliases

2019-07-27 Thread James Bennett
On Sat, Jul 27, 2019 at 11:01 AM Florian Apolloner 
wrote:

> Not opposed to changing it, but would make {% translateblock %} more sense
> than {% blocktranslate %}?
>

I'm in favor of the change to using the full word "translate". I don't have
a strong opinion on which variant to use for the block translate tag; if
there's no other reason advanced for picking "translateblock" I'd point out
that "blocktranslate" may make life slightly easier for people using
autocomplete since it ensures you don't accidentally complete into
"translate" when you wanted "translateblock" (or vice versa).

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Re: Translation templatetag aliases

2019-07-27 Thread '1337 Shadow Hacker' via Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)
If you use autocomplete then typing "{% tr" should propose both translate and 
translateblock which reduces the chances to pick the wrong one because the 
other choice did not show up

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