Re: The blacklist / master issue

[Daryl]

The focus while reading the Django pages should be on the differences
between Django's governance approach (long term goal settings, a board of
technical experts, meritocratic decision making) vs the many frameworks and
projects that have flashed in the pan (please excuse me for using a phrase
that some languages might not understand).
Typically flash-in-the-pan projects have fewer experts, and control and
decision making is *usually* meritocratic but sometimes egocentric.
Eventually, no matter how bright the initial flash is, decisions by the
self-chosen few are made that result in the failure of the project.

This isn't to say that a failed project is not of value - many of the
learnings from failed projects are rolled into even better projects, but
this is not what Django is about. The developers quickly realised (way back
in the days when the initial developer's own newspaper project was the
largest Django installation around) that a strong governance structure
would be required.

With regard to the current "hot" topics (master/slave and blacklist /
deny), these may be viewed as trend-following, but a deeper study of both
nomenclature will inform you that current technology in databases no longer
follows the original meaning of master / slave, so a new or different name
is required. This might not suit people of my age who grew up with
master/slave databases and understand the non-racist use of the words, but
why should the current nomenclature suit just me?
Master / slave patterns still exist in some databases, but generally the
idea of one node being a master is getting rare. This is somewhat poetic,
as it mirrors the real world where in most countries, where the trend is
(hopefully) away from master / slave relationships.

My personal opinion for the 2nd topic (blacklist / whitelist / allow /
deny) is that this is a good time to pick a more descriptive name, and
allow/deny would mirror the linux hosts.allow and hosts.deny logic that has
been perfectly apt for 4 decades or more, and AFAIK is a better description
in most spoken languages in use today. You (Alexander) may prefer
"blacklist", and some of the technical board may also prefer "blacklist" (i
don't know) but you can rest assured that the decision would have been made
without significant weight being applied to the technical board member's
*personal* experiences, but the experiences of every *future* user of the
framework.

Finally,  in order to argue against changing these names (which has been
pointed out has already been merged) you would have to come up with an
argument to show reputational or technical harm would be done by changing.
Of all the users who have posted on the list who *disagree* with the
changes, none have written an argument with substantial merit in my opinion.

Remember, it's all about the future users of Django, not just the current
users.

D




On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 at 08:10, Alexander Lyabah  wrote:

>  Daryl, that is very strange, that you bring it here now.
>
> > One of Django's strengths is that decision making is *not* polluted by
> one strong opinion, a whim by a marketing department, or trend-following.
>
> renaming whitelist and blacklist is exactly what is in trend right now. I
> understand that not everybody are following US-news, but if you google
> "blacklist blm" you will find, how big the trend is, actually.
>
> Also, thank you sharing those link, but can you plz elaborate more, why do
> you bring those and what do you what to proof by sharing those links, so
> when I read those links again, I know on what point I should focus more.
>
> Thank you for being involved in this conversation.
>
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> 
> .
>


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Re: The blacklist / master issue

[Markus Holtermann]

First things first:

I'm glad, Django changed master/slave and blacklist/whitelist to more 
appropriate and adequate terms. Naming things is hard. And just because 
somebody came up with a name decades ago doesn't mean it can't — or even 
shouldn't — be changed. Especially when there are more descriptive alternatives.

I'm glad, Django is in the position to take a stance for a more inclusive 
language in technology and against decades old, racist, terminology.

I'm glad, Django, as several other software projects out there, picked up on 
the Black Lives Matter protests happening in the US and around the globe.

I'm glad, Django has a Code of Conduct 
(https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/) and a community where racist behavior 
is not tolerated.

---

Alexander, since you brought up the news, I'm sure you're aware that the 
BlackLivesMatter protests are happening around the globe and are not only in 
the US. Racist behavior exists pretty much everywhere, certainly in the US and 
Germany.

I'm a young, white man, from Germany. I have never experienced any racist 
behavior towards me. But I'm fairly certain that there are plenty of people on 
this list who have.

We're still living in a society where white men are privileged in many ways. If 
I can stand in solidarity and support of black colleagues, friends, and members 
of the Django community, by reexamining and addressing language choices that 
have ugly backgrounds to their history, I'm glad!

Markus

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020, at 10:10 PM, Alexander Lyabah wrote:
>  Daryl, that is very strange, that you bring it here now.
> 
> > One of Django's strengths is that decision making is *not* polluted by one 
> > strong opinion, a whim by a marketing department, or trend-following. 
> 
> renaming whitelist and blacklist is exactly what is in trend right now. 
> I understand that not everybody are following US-news, but if you 
> google "blacklist blm" you will find, how big the trend is, actually.
> 
> Also, thank you sharing those link, but can you plz elaborate more, why 
> do you bring those and what do you what to proof by sharing those 
> links, so when I read those links again, I know on what point I should 
> focus more. 
> 
> Thank you for being involved in this conversation.
> 
>  -- 
>  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
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> an email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>  
> .

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Re: The blacklist / master issue

[Alexander Lyabah]

 Daryl, that is very strange, that you bring it here now.

> One of Django's strengths is that decision making is *not* polluted by 
one strong opinion, a whim by a marketing department, or trend-following. 

renaming whitelist and blacklist is exactly what is in trend right now. I 
understand that not everybody are following US-news, but if you google 
"blacklist blm" you will find, how big the trend is, actually.

Also, thank you sharing those link, but can you plz elaborate more, why do 
you bring those and what do you what to proof by sharing those links, so 
when I read those links again, I know on what point I should focus more. 

Thank you for being involved in this conversation.

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Re: The blacklist / master issue

[Daryl]

Alexander,

"""What is more important here, Django doesn't have a strong rules for
making decision about how framework is building and changing"""

*You couldn't be more wrong with this statement.*

One of Django's strengths is that decision making is *not* polluted by one
strong opinion, a whim by a marketing department, or trend-following.
You should read this
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/3.0/misc/design-philosophies/
and this
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/organization/
to educate yourself about how a strong organisation ensures that decision
making is high quality, transparent and meritocratic.

D.

On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 at 07:11, Alexander Lyabah  wrote:

> Robert, thank you for your response.
>
> For me, as an experience developer, blacklist is more descriptive, since I
> saw this word in so many other places, languages, frameworks. But it is
> just me, I'm here not to say that my opinion is more important than anyone
> else's.
>
> . Next week US-news will have a new subject for discussion, new words will
> be claimed to be abusive, new django community member will find an abusive
> word in source code (or sounds like it or very close to it), and community
> will be happy to claim this word to be not that descriptive, and find a
> better, more description replacement for it.
>
> with big respect
>
> On Sunday, June 21, 2020 at 6:54:57 PM UTC+3, Robert Roskam wrote:
>>
>> Hey All,
>>
>> I see this opportunity to rename these things to be what they in plain,
>> descriptive language. Since we will rarely have as many people together
>> considering this change, I find it useful to think what we would have named
>> these things from the beginning and then consider if our naming could be
>> more clear.
>>
>> I also found the term master odd when I first started using git. It
>> didn't map to anything or have an analogy that I found useful. If we
>> switched to main/trunk or whatever Github decides on, I don't much care
>> what the new name scheme is.
>>
>> Further, I find the allow/deny, accept/block for lists of things as far
>> more descriptive.
>>
>> Some elaboration: when I first came into professional technical circles,
>> I found the tendency to use color as a short-cut for culturally accepted
>> meaning to be potentially confusing to those from other cultures.
>> White/black, red/green/yellow may have received _technical_ meanings from
>> the last 50-60 years or so from the American-centric culture, and I speak
>> ignorantly, since I'm an American, but I don't know if I can assume that
>> other cultures do the same.
>>
>> Robert Roskam
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 12:28:23 PM UTC-4, Tom Carrick wrote:
>>>
>>> This ticket was closed wontfix
>>>  as requiring a
>>> discussion here.
>>>
>>> David Smith mentioned this Tox issue
>>>  stating it had been
>>> closed, but to me it seems like it hasn't been closed (maybe there's
>>> something I can't see) and apparently a PR would be accepted to add aliases
>>> at the least (this is more recent than the comment on the Django ticket).
>>>
>>> My impetus to bring this up mostly comes from reading this ZDNet article
>>> 
>>> - it seems like Google have already made moves in this direction and GitHub
>>> is also planning to. Usually Django is somewhere near the front for these
>>> types of changes.
>>>
>>> I'm leaning towards renaming the master branch and wherever else we use
>>> that terminology, but I'm less sure about black/whitelist, though right now
>>> it seems more positive than negative. Most arguments against use some kind
>>> of etymological argument, but I don't think debates about historical terms
>>> are as interesting as how they affect people in the here and now.
>>>
>>> I don't think there is an easy answer here, and I open this can of worms
>>> somewhat reluctantly. I do think Luke is correct that we should be
>>> concerned with our credibility if we wrongly change this, but I'm also
>>> worried about our credibility if we don't.
>>>
>> --
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>


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Re: The blacklist / master issue

[Alexander Lyabah]

Robert, thank you for your response.

For me, as an experience developer, blacklist is more descriptive, since I 
saw this word in so many other places, languages, frameworks. But it is 
just me, I'm here not to say that my opinion is more important than anyone 
else's.

What is more important here, Django doesn't have a strong rules for making 
decision about how framework is building and changing. Next week US-news 
will have a new subject for discussion, new words will be claimed to be 
abusive, new django community member will find an abusive word in source 
code (or sounds like it or very close to it), and community will be happy 
to claim this word to be not that descriptive, and find a better, more 
description replacement for it.

with big respect

On Sunday, June 21, 2020 at 6:54:57 PM UTC+3, Robert Roskam wrote:
>
> Hey All,
>
> I see this opportunity to rename these things to be what they in plain, 
> descriptive language. Since we will rarely have as many people together 
> considering this change, I find it useful to think what we would have named 
> these things from the beginning and then consider if our naming could be 
> more clear.
>
> I also found the term master odd when I first started using git. It didn't 
> map to anything or have an analogy that I found useful. If we switched to 
> main/trunk or whatever Github decides on, I don't much care what the new 
> name scheme is. 
>
> Further, I find the allow/deny, accept/block for lists of things as far 
> more descriptive.
>
> Some elaboration: when I first came into professional technical circles, I 
> found the tendency to use color as a short-cut for culturally accepted 
> meaning to be potentially confusing to those from other cultures.  
> White/black, red/green/yellow may have received _technical_ meanings from 
> the last 50-60 years or so from the American-centric culture, and I speak 
> ignorantly, since I'm an American, but I don't know if I can assume that 
> other cultures do the same. 
>
> Robert Roskam
>
>
>
> On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 12:28:23 PM UTC-4, Tom Carrick wrote:
>>
>> This ticket was closed wontfix 
>>  as requiring a 
>> discussion here.
>>
>> David Smith mentioned this Tox issue 
>>  stating it had been closed, 
>> but to me it seems like it hasn't been closed (maybe there's something I 
>> can't see) and apparently a PR would be accepted to add aliases at the 
>> least (this is more recent than the comment on the Django ticket).
>>
>> My impetus to bring this up mostly comes from reading this ZDNet article 
>> 
>>  
>> - it seems like Google have already made moves in this direction and GitHub 
>> is also planning to. Usually Django is somewhere near the front for these 
>> types of changes.
>>
>> I'm leaning towards renaming the master branch and wherever else we use 
>> that terminology, but I'm less sure about black/whitelist, though right now 
>> it seems more positive than negative. Most arguments against use some kind 
>> of etymological argument, but I don't think debates about historical terms 
>> are as interesting as how they affect people in the here and now.
>>
>> I don't think there is an easy answer here, and I open this can of worms 
>> somewhat reluctantly. I do think Luke is correct that we should be 
>> concerned with our credibility if we wrongly change this, but I'm also 
>> worried about our credibility if we don't.
>>
>

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Re: The blacklist / master issue

[Hooshyar Naraghi]

Hello,

I totally agree with Alexader's position, and I re-iterate his sentiment:
This is embarrassing.

If I shared this discourse about whitelisting/blacklisting in the software
field with founders of Back Lives Matter, I would suspect that they would
look at me in a strange way.

Don't do something, because it is trending, or, in this case, because some
guy at Google (or at any company) did it. That's called herd mentality. If
any computer professional cares enough about racial discrimination in the
U.S. (and in the rest of the world, for that matter), they ought to get
involved in racial justice movements/projects. There are plenty of them
around.

Would we, please, stay out of messing around with computer/software terms?
Unless one has undisputed evidence that those computer folks who first came
up with terms like whitelisting and blacklisting were racist or at the
minimum they were influenced by a racist history, which I believe they were
not. I would further propose unless one can prove that every time in our
profession we use computer terms like whitelisting and blacklisting, the
thing that triggers our conscious mind is the idea of the white race as
good and the black race as bad, which I believe it does not.

BTW, bringing down statues of Confederate generals/leaders is a different
discourse. They were racist and to this day their existence exemplifies the
institution of racism and discrimination.

Regards,
Hooshyar Naraghi

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 2:11 AM Alexander Lyabah 
wrote:

> I'm not debating, since nobody has something to say. I'm explaining, why
> things that you are doing are embarrassing.
>
> I hoping that wikipedia will be not that populistic
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitelisting
>
> On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 5:32:58 PM UTC+3, Adam Johnson wrote:
>>
>> Alexander, it's not really up for debate any more. We've already merged
>> the PR's to Django.
>>
>> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 13:51, Alexander Lyabah 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> let's not change the subject
>>>
>>> we are not talking about black and white, we are talking about whitelist
>>> / blacklist and master / slave. Those statements have a big history in
>>> programming, which has nothing to do with slavery at all.
>>>
>>> Don't mix words with meaning and senses.
>>>
>>> ... It is important to understand when you make changes like this. ...
>>> words and meaning
>>>
>>> I've never seen anyone who is by doing 'git checkout master', think
>>> about white race superior. - It is because master has a different meaning,
>>> different sense, which is nothing to do with slavery, and fight for freedom.
>>>
>>> I've never seen anyone who is by playing white in Go-game, think about
>>> white race superior. (Even though by Go-rules white gets +7.5 points
>>> against Black at the beginning of the game) - it is because white has
>>> different meaning and different sense, and it is nothing to do with
>>> slavery, and fight for freedom (it is because blacks move first).
>>>
>>> You have power here to do what ever you want to do in this framework. I
>>> what you to use common sense and don't follow the rules dictated by
>>> news-channels and big corporations. I want rules, you follow, being strong
>>> and independent from what is going on around. In that case you don't need
>>> to split community after next big news.
>>>
>>> Thank you, with all respect.
>>>
>>> On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 4:18:04 PM UTC+3, Tom Forbes wrote:

 As an international framework I think we should make our interface as
 language and culturally agnostic as possible. ‘Allow’ and ‘Deny’ are simply
 semantically clearer than ‘white’ and ‘black’. That alone is a convincing
 argument for me.

 On 19 Jun 2020, at 13:55, Alexander Lyabah  wrote:

 

 Django in international framework, not US-framework. You should not
 change variable names just because meaning of some words have been changed
 in US recently. Those words have been used in source-code for years, and
 nobody put racism in those word when this framework was founded and nobody
 puts any racism in when one is using for creation something big and
 meaningful.

 What I'm encourage you to do, is to thing farther than what is going on
 right now.

 If Django Foundation really want to help in this revolution - add a
 banner on that landing page. Feel free to choose

 https://eji.org/
 https://org2.salsalabs.com/o/6857/p/salsa/donation/common/public/

 And this kind of contribution will work much better.

 Thank you, for this opportunity to share my opinion.

 On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 7:28:23 PM UTC+3, Tom Carrick wrote:
>
> This ticket was closed wontfix
>  as requiring a
> discussion here.
>
> David Smith mentioned this Tox issue
>  stating it had been
> closed, but to me

Re: The blacklist / master issue

[Robert Roskam]

Hey All,

I see this opportunity to rename these things to be what they in plain, 
descriptive language. Since we will rarely have as many people together 
considering this change, I find it useful to think what we would have named 
these things from the beginning and then consider if our naming could be 
more clear.

I also found the term master odd when I first started using git. It didn't 
map to anything or have an analogy that I found useful. If we switched to 
main/trunk or whatever Github decides on, I don't much care what the new 
name scheme is. 

Further, I find the allow/deny, accept/block for lists of things as far 
more descriptive.

Some elaboration: when I first came into professional technical circles, I 
found the tendency to use color as a short-cut for culturally accepted 
meaning to be potentially confusing to those from other cultures.  
White/black, red/green/yellow may have received _technical_ meanings from 
the last 50-60 years or so from the American-centric culture, and I speak 
ignorantly, since I'm an American, but I don't know if I can assume that 
other cultures do the same. 

Robert Roskam



On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 12:28:23 PM UTC-4, Tom Carrick wrote:
>
> This ticket was closed wontfix 
>  as requiring a 
> discussion here.
>
> David Smith mentioned this Tox issue 
>  stating it had been closed, 
> but to me it seems like it hasn't been closed (maybe there's something I 
> can't see) and apparently a PR would be accepted to add aliases at the 
> least (this is more recent than the comment on the Django ticket).
>
> My impetus to bring this up mostly comes from reading this ZDNet article 
> 
>  
> - it seems like Google have already made moves in this direction and GitHub 
> is also planning to. Usually Django is somewhere near the front for these 
> types of changes.
>
> I'm leaning towards renaming the master branch and wherever else we use 
> that terminology, but I'm less sure about black/whitelist, though right now 
> it seems more positive than negative. Most arguments against use some kind 
> of etymological argument, but I don't think debates about historical terms 
> are as interesting as how they affect people in the here and now.
>
> I don't think there is an easy answer here, and I open this can of worms 
> somewhat reluctantly. I do think Luke is correct that we should be 
> concerned with our credibility if we wrongly change this, but I'm also 
> worried about our credibility if we don't.
>

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Re: The blacklist / master issue

[Alexandr Tatarinov]

I would like to share this article 
 which 
has pretty compelling arguments, especially regarding the feelings (point 
4).

On Monday, 15 June 2020 19:28:23 UTC+3, Tom Carrick wrote:
>
> This ticket was closed wontfix 
>  as requiring a 
> discussion here.
>
> David Smith mentioned this Tox issue 
>  stating it had been closed, 
> but to me it seems like it hasn't been closed (maybe there's something I 
> can't see) and apparently a PR would be accepted to add aliases at the 
> least (this is more recent than the comment on the Django ticket).
>
> My impetus to bring this up mostly comes from reading this ZDNet article 
> 
>  
> - it seems like Google have already made moves in this direction and GitHub 
> is also planning to. Usually Django is somewhere near the front for these 
> types of changes.
>
> I'm leaning towards renaming the master branch and wherever else we use 
> that terminology, but I'm less sure about black/whitelist, though right now 
> it seems more positive than negative. Most arguments against use some kind 
> of etymological argument, but I don't think debates about historical terms 
> are as interesting as how they affect people in the here and now.
>
> I don't think there is an easy answer here, and I open this can of worms 
> somewhat reluctantly. I do think Luke is correct that we should be 
> concerned with our credibility if we wrongly change this, but I'm also 
> worried about our credibility if we don't.
>

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Re: The blacklist / master issue

[Alexander Lyabah]

Btw, PR-author has now a privilege to create an article 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allowlistening

On Sunday, June 21, 2020 at 11:11:02 AM UTC+3, Alexander Lyabah wrote:
>
> I'm not debating, since nobody has something to say. I'm explaining, why 
> things that you are doing are embarrassing.
>
> I hoping that wikipedia will be not that populistic 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitelisting
>
> On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 5:32:58 PM UTC+3, Adam Johnson wrote:
>>
>> Alexander, it's not really up for debate any more. We've already merged 
>> the PR's to Django.
>>
>> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 13:51, Alexander Lyabah  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> let's not change the subject
>>>
>>> we are not talking about black and white, we are talking about whitelist 
>>> / blacklist and master / slave. Those statements have a big history in 
>>> programming, which has nothing to do with slavery at all. 
>>>
>>> Don't mix words with meaning and senses.
>>>
>>> ... It is important to understand when you make changes like this. ... 
>>> words and meaning
>>>
>>> I've never seen anyone who is by doing 'git checkout master', think 
>>> about white race superior. - It is because master has a different meaning, 
>>> different sense, which is nothing to do with slavery, and fight for freedom.
>>>
>>> I've never seen anyone who is by playing white in Go-game, think about 
>>> white race superior. (Even though by Go-rules white gets +7.5 points 
>>> against Black at the beginning of the game) - it is because white has 
>>> different meaning and different sense, and it is nothing to do with 
>>> slavery, and fight for freedom (it is because blacks move first).
>>>
>>> You have power here to do what ever you want to do in this framework. I 
>>> what you to use common sense and don't follow the rules dictated by 
>>> news-channels and big corporations. I want rules, you follow, being strong 
>>> and independent from what is going on around. In that case you don't need 
>>> to split community after next big news.
>>>
>>> Thank you, with all respect.
>>>
>>> On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 4:18:04 PM UTC+3, Tom Forbes wrote:

 As an international framework I think we should make our interface as 
 language and culturally agnostic as possible. ‘Allow’ and ‘Deny’ are 
 simply 
 semantically clearer than ‘white’ and ‘black’. That alone is a convincing 
 argument for me.

 On 19 Jun 2020, at 13:55, Alexander Lyabah  wrote:

 

 Django in international framework, not US-framework. You should not 
 change variable names just because meaning of some words have been changed 
 in US recently. Those words have been used in source-code for years, and 
 nobody put racism in those word when this framework was founded and nobody 
 puts any racism in when one is using for creation something big and 
 meaningful.

 What I'm encourage you to do, is to thing farther than what is going on 
 right now.

 If Django Foundation really want to help in this revolution - add a 
 banner on that landing page. Feel free to choose

 https://eji.org/
 https://org2.salsalabs.com/o/6857/p/salsa/donation/common/public/

 And this kind of contribution will work much better.

 Thank you, for this opportunity to share my opinion.

 On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 7:28:23 PM UTC+3, Tom Carrick wrote:
>
> This ticket was closed wontfix 
>  as requiring a 
> discussion here.
>
> David Smith mentioned this Tox issue 
>  stating it had been 
> closed, but to me it seems like it hasn't been closed (maybe there's 
> something I can't see) and apparently a PR would be accepted to add 
> aliases 
> at the least (this is more recent than the comment on the Django ticket).
>
> My impetus to bring this up mostly comes from reading this ZDNet 
> article 
> 
>  
> - it seems like Google have already made moves in this direction and 
> GitHub 
> is also planning to. Usually Django is somewhere near the front for these 
> types of changes.
>
> I'm leaning towards renaming the master branch and wherever else we 
> use that terminology, but I'm less sure about black/whitelist, though 
> right 
> now it seems more positive than negative. Most arguments against use some 
> kind of etymological argument, but I don't think debates about historical 
> terms are as interesting as how they affect people in the here and now.
>
> I don't think there is an easy answer here, and I open this can of 
> worms somewhat reluctantly. I do think Luke is correct that we should be 
> concerned with our credibility if we wrongly change this, but I'm also 
> worried about o

Re: The blacklist / master issue

[Alexander Lyabah]

I'm not debating, since nobody has something to say. I'm explaining, why 
things that you are doing are embarrassing.

I hoping that wikipedia will be not that populistic 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitelisting

On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 5:32:58 PM UTC+3, Adam Johnson wrote:
>
> Alexander, it's not really up for debate any more. We've already merged 
> the PR's to Django.
>
> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 13:51, Alexander Lyabah  > wrote:
>
>> let's not change the subject
>>
>> we are not talking about black and white, we are talking about whitelist 
>> / blacklist and master / slave. Those statements have a big history in 
>> programming, which has nothing to do with slavery at all. 
>>
>> Don't mix words with meaning and senses.
>>
>> ... It is important to understand when you make changes like this. ... 
>> words and meaning
>>
>> I've never seen anyone who is by doing 'git checkout master', think about 
>> white race superior. - It is because master has a different meaning, 
>> different sense, which is nothing to do with slavery, and fight for freedom.
>>
>> I've never seen anyone who is by playing white in Go-game, think about 
>> white race superior. (Even though by Go-rules white gets +7.5 points 
>> against Black at the beginning of the game) - it is because white has 
>> different meaning and different sense, and it is nothing to do with 
>> slavery, and fight for freedom (it is because blacks move first).
>>
>> You have power here to do what ever you want to do in this framework. I 
>> what you to use common sense and don't follow the rules dictated by 
>> news-channels and big corporations. I want rules, you follow, being strong 
>> and independent from what is going on around. In that case you don't need 
>> to split community after next big news.
>>
>> Thank you, with all respect.
>>
>> On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 4:18:04 PM UTC+3, Tom Forbes wrote:
>>>
>>> As an international framework I think we should make our interface as 
>>> language and culturally agnostic as possible. ‘Allow’ and ‘Deny’ are simply 
>>> semantically clearer than ‘white’ and ‘black’. That alone is a convincing 
>>> argument for me.
>>>
>>> On 19 Jun 2020, at 13:55, Alexander Lyabah  wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> Django in international framework, not US-framework. You should not 
>>> change variable names just because meaning of some words have been changed 
>>> in US recently. Those words have been used in source-code for years, and 
>>> nobody put racism in those word when this framework was founded and nobody 
>>> puts any racism in when one is using for creation something big and 
>>> meaningful.
>>>
>>> What I'm encourage you to do, is to thing farther than what is going on 
>>> right now.
>>>
>>> If Django Foundation really want to help in this revolution - add a 
>>> banner on that landing page. Feel free to choose
>>>
>>> https://eji.org/
>>> https://org2.salsalabs.com/o/6857/p/salsa/donation/common/public/
>>>
>>> And this kind of contribution will work much better.
>>>
>>> Thank you, for this opportunity to share my opinion.
>>>
>>> On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 7:28:23 PM UTC+3, Tom Carrick wrote:

 This ticket was closed wontfix 
  as requiring a 
 discussion here.

 David Smith mentioned this Tox issue 
  stating it had been 
 closed, but to me it seems like it hasn't been closed (maybe there's 
 something I can't see) and apparently a PR would be accepted to add 
 aliases 
 at the least (this is more recent than the comment on the Django ticket).

 My impetus to bring this up mostly comes from reading this ZDNet 
 article 
 
  
 - it seems like Google have already made moves in this direction and 
 GitHub 
 is also planning to. Usually Django is somewhere near the front for these 
 types of changes.

 I'm leaning towards renaming the master branch and wherever else we use 
 that terminology, but I'm less sure about black/whitelist, though right 
 now 
 it seems more positive than negative. Most arguments against use some kind 
 of etymological argument, but I don't think debates about historical terms 
 are as interesting as how they affect people in the here and now.

 I don't think there is an easy answer here, and I open this can of 
 worms somewhat reluctantly. I do think Luke is correct that we should be 
 concerned with our credibility if we wrongly change this, but I'm also 
 worried about our credibility if we don't.

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