Re: Authenticating with Django without the password being sent to the server

2017-01-15 Thread Rob 
I'm not sure why you think that would be a better way?  Assuming you are 
already using TLS correctly (2048 bit keys, TLS v1.2, proper cipher suites, 
forward secrecy, etc. etc.) a simple way to achieve much higher security is 
to support two factor authentication.

There are a number of systems for doing what you at trying to achieve (SRP 
is mentioned in another thread) but all of those are attempts to deal with 
significant man-in-the-middle concerns, not general we security.

If you actually do have to deal with significant MITM concerns you really 
need a security expert on your team.

In actuality, if you are doing things right, the biggest security issues 
are exploits on the client side (viruses, phishing, key-loggers) and 
incursions into your infrastructure.

Rob.

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 1:24:24 PM UTC-5, Chris Priest wrote:
>
> The way django's authentication system works is that when you register, 
> you send the password to the server, then the server runs that password 
> through some hashing algorithms, then the resulting hash is stored in the 
> database. When the user logs in, the password again is sent to the server, 
> and the hash is calculated and then compared to the hash that was 
> calculated when they registered.
>
> This results in the plain text password not being stored in the database, 
> but the password is still being sent back to the server. A better way would 
> be for the hash to be calculated on the front end, in javascript, and then 
> sent back to be stored in the database. This way, the user *knows for sure* 
> that the password isn't being saved in plain text because the server 
> doesn't even know the plain text password.
>
> Has anyone ever tried building an authentication system that worked this 
> way? If someone built such a thing, could it get included in django contrib?
>

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Re: Authenticating with Django without the password being sent to the server

2017-01-14 Thread Florian Apolloner 
I am not going to comment on the security side of things here, since as 
others already commented: you do not win much security wise. If you are 
worried about plaintext password leaks via MITM, use TLS - period

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 7:24:24 PM UTC+1, Chris Priest wrote:
>
> Has anyone ever tried building an authentication system that worked this 
> way? If someone built such a thing, could it get included in django contrib?
>

Yes, there are plenty of such systems out there. The chances of including 
that in django.contrib are roughly zero, first and foremost Django auth 
backends do not depend on frontend stuff, ie cannot rely on JS being 
available. And without sub-resource integrity and end-to-end visibility of 
that integrity there is no way I see such a system to be useful. 
TLS+cleartext password or SPNEGO are imo the way to go forward.

Cheers,
Florian


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Re: Authenticating with Django without the password being sent to the server

2017-01-14 Thread Melvyn Sopacua 
On Saturday 14 January 2017 10:24:24 Chris Priest wrote:
> The way django's authentication system works is that when you
> register, you send the password to the server, then the server runs
> that password through some hashing algorithms, then the resulting
> hash is stored in the database. When the user logs in, the password
> again is sent to the server, and the hash is calculated and then
> compared to the hash that was calculated when they registered.
> 
> This results in the plain text password not being stored in the
> database, but the password is still being sent back to the server.

The solution is to use SRP, originally coined by Stanford University[1]. There 
used to 
be a Django enabled implementation[2], but it died a long time ago.
I don't know a well-maintained alternative and would welcome it in contrib.
-- 
Melvyn Sopacua


[1] http://srp.stanford.edu/
[2] http://code.google.com/p/srp-js/

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Re: Authenticating with Django without the password being sent to the server

2017-01-14 Thread Markus Holtermann 
That's as correct, Anthony. Any you then want to hash the hash so that
you can't just login knowing the hashed password when the database is
leaked. Essentially you haven't won anything.

Second, how do you make sure the JavaScript is properly transmitted and
doesn't contain any code that sends off the credentials anywhere else?
TLS encrypted connections? Well, then I trust the encryption and can
just send the plain-text password. Or I don't trust the encryption and
I'm screwed either way.

/Markus

On 01/14/2017 07:32 PM, Anthony King wrote:
> Chris, then the password is the hash itself. It doesn't really have any
> security benefits.
> 
> Disclaimer: I'm not a security expert
> 
> On 14 Jan 2017 18:24, "Chris Priest"  wrote:
> 
>> The way django's authentication system works is that when you register,
>> you send the password to the server, then the server runs that password
>> through some hashing algorithms, then the resulting hash is stored in the
>> database. When the user logs in, the password again is sent to the server,
>> and the hash is calculated and then compared to the hash that was
>> calculated when they registered.
>>
>> This results in the plain text password not being stored in the database,
>> but the password is still being sent back to the server. A better way would
>> be for the hash to be calculated on the front end, in javascript, and then
>> sent back to be stored in the database. This way, the user *knows for sure*
>> that the password isn't being saved in plain text because the server
>> doesn't even know the plain text password.
>>
>> Has anyone ever tried building an authentication system that worked this
>> way? If someone built such a thing, could it get included in django contrib?
>>
>> --
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>> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> msgid/django-developers/440694cb-853e-4150-a356-
>> 1f176f59b3c7%40googlegroups.com
>> 
>> .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
> 

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Re: Authenticating with Django without the password being sent to the server

2017-01-14 Thread Anthony King 
Chris, then the password is the hash itself. It doesn't really have any
security benefits.

Disclaimer: I'm not a security expert

On 14 Jan 2017 18:24, "Chris Priest"  wrote:

> The way django's authentication system works is that when you register,
> you send the password to the server, then the server runs that password
> through some hashing algorithms, then the resulting hash is stored in the
> database. When the user logs in, the password again is sent to the server,
> and the hash is calculated and then compared to the hash that was
> calculated when they registered.
>
> This results in the plain text password not being stored in the database,
> but the password is still being sent back to the server. A better way would
> be for the hash to be calculated on the front end, in javascript, and then
> sent back to be stored in the database. This way, the user *knows for sure*
> that the password isn't being saved in plain text because the server
> doesn't even know the plain text password.
>
> Has anyone ever tried building an authentication system that worked this
> way? If someone built such a thing, could it get included in django contrib?
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> msgid/django-developers/440694cb-853e-4150-a356-
> 1f176f59b3c7%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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Authenticating with Django without the password being sent to the server

2017-01-14 Thread Chris Priest 
The way django's authentication system works is that when you register, you 
send the password to the server, then the server runs that password through 
some hashing algorithms, then the resulting hash is stored in the database. 
When the user logs in, the password again is sent to the server, and the 
hash is calculated and then compared to the hash that was calculated when 
they registered.

This results in the plain text password not being stored in the database, 
but the password is still being sent back to the server. A better way would 
be for the hash to be calculated on the front end, in javascript, and then 
sent back to be stored in the database. This way, the user *knows for sure* 
that the password isn't being saved in plain text because the server 
doesn't even know the plain text password.

Has anyone ever tried building an authentication system that worked this 
way? If someone built such a thing, could it get included in django contrib?

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