Re: GSOC 2014 Project Proposal

[Daniel Greenfeld]

One more note in this thread:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Definitive-Guide-Django-Development/dp/1430258810

The Definitive Guide to Django is being revised. Apress has added Katie 
Cunningham to the author list, something that now I just remembered Jacob 
Kaplan-Moss mentioned to me in early 2013. I can only guess that 
djangobook.com will be updated as well.

I apologize for not considering the ownership issues in my first email in 
this discussion.

Daniel Greenfeld


On Monday, February 24, 2014 8:39:41 AM UTC-8, Daniel Greenfeld wrote:
>
> After due consideration, I think updating djangobook.com should not be a 
> GSOC project. Why not?
>
> First, the book is owned by the authors and Apress, not the Django 
> project. The Django community has no control. This probably runs afoul of 
> some sort of GSOC rule.
>
> Second, it's representative of something that is at least partly a 
> commercial effort. In theory, Apress could take the revised content and 
> publish it as a third edition. While I'm not opposed to the commercial 
> selling of books at all, I think Google would take significant exception to 
> GSOC funds being used this way.
>
> Third, I think providing example projects for the tutorial chapters is not 
> worthy of a GSOC project. It's too much of a low-hanging fruit and people 
> have certainly done it already. I know because people try to do this with 
> Two Scoops of Django's chapters (search GitHub and you'll find some 
> attempts).
>
> Fourth, because of the third issue, we risk complaints of plagiarism. The 
> content already exists, it's just a matter of finding it. GSOC funding for 
> code examples that already exist? No. No. No. Bad idea!
>
> Daniel Greenfeld 
>
> On Monday, February 24, 2014 2:28:41 AM UTC-8, Tom Evans wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 5:31 PM, Devashish Badlani  
>> wrote: 
>> > Sir, 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Sample projects with the updated Django 1.6.2,use of latest modules in 
>> each 
>> > of them and an helpful documentaion ,would certainly enhance the value 
>> of 
>> > DjangoBook is what I feel 
>> > 
>>
>> How would this work? The book currently admonishes readers that: 
>>
>> """ 
>> The community edition of The Django Book is in transition. While the 
>> book mentions Django version 1.4 in places, the vast majority of the 
>> book is for Django version 1.0 
>> """ 
>>
>> So you will write sample projects aimed at 1.6.2 for each chapter in a 
>> book written for 1.0? This does not seem wise. 
>>
>> Cheers 
>>
>> Tom 
>>
>

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Re: GSOC 2014 Project Proposal

[Devashish Badlani]

Thank you for your time 

Regards 
Devashish Badlani

Sent from my iPhone 5

> On 24-Feb-2014, at 10:09 pm, Daniel Greenfeld  wrote:
> 
> After due consideration, I think updating djangobook.com should not be a GSOC 
> project. Why not?
> 
> First, the book is owned by the authors and Apress, not the Django project. 
> The Django community has no control. This probably runs afoul of some sort of 
> GSOC rule.
> 
> Second, it's representative of something that is at least partly a commercial 
> effort. In theory, Apress could take the revised content and publish it as a 
> third edition. While I'm not opposed to the commercial selling of books at 
> all, I think Google would take significant exception to GSOC funds being used 
> this way.
> 
> Third, I think providing example projects for the tutorial chapters is not 
> worthy of a GSOC project. It's too much of a low-hanging fruit and people 
> have certainly done it already. I know because people try to do this with Two 
> Scoops of Django's chapters (search GitHub and you'll find some attempts).
> 
> Fourth, because of the third issue, we risk complaints of plagiarism. The 
> content already exists, it's just a matter of finding it. GSOC funding for 
> code examples that already exist? No. No. No. Bad idea!
> 
> Daniel Greenfeld 
> 
>> On Monday, February 24, 2014 2:28:41 AM UTC-8, Tom Evans wrote:
>> On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 5:31 PM, Devashish Badlani  
>> wrote: 
>> > Sir, 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Sample projects with the updated Django 1.6.2,use of latest modules in 
>> > each 
>> > of them and an helpful documentaion ,would certainly enhance the value of 
>> > DjangoBook is what I feel 
>> > 
>> 
>> How would this work? The book currently admonishes readers that: 
>> 
>> """ 
>> The community edition of The Django Book is in transition. While the 
>> book mentions Django version 1.4 in places, the vast majority of the 
>> book is for Django version 1.0 
>> """ 
>> 
>> So you will write sample projects aimed at 1.6.2 for each chapter in a 
>> book written for 1.0? This does not seem wise. 
>> 
>> Cheers 
>> 
>> Tom
> 
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Re: GSOC 2014 Project Proposal

[Daniel Greenfeld]

After due consideration, I think updating djangobook.com should not be a 
GSOC project. Why not?

First, the book is owned by the authors and Apress, not the Django project. 
The Django community has no control. This probably runs afoul of some sort 
of GSOC rule.

Second, it's representative of something that is at least partly a 
commercial effort. In theory, Apress could take the revised content and 
publish it as a third edition. While I'm not opposed to the commercial 
selling of books at all, I think Google would take significant exception to 
GSOC funds being used this way.

Third, I think providing example projects for the tutorial chapters is not 
worthy of a GSOC project. It's too much of a low-hanging fruit and people 
have certainly done it already. I know because people try to do this with 
Two Scoops of Django's chapters (search GitHub and you'll find some 
attempts).

Fourth, because of the third issue, we risk complaints of plagiarism. The 
content already exists, it's just a matter of finding it. GSOC funding for 
code examples that already exist? No. No. No. Bad idea!

Daniel Greenfeld 

On Monday, February 24, 2014 2:28:41 AM UTC-8, Tom Evans wrote:
>
> On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 5:31 PM, Devashish Badlani 
>  
> wrote: 
> > Sir, 
> > 
> > 
> > Sample projects with the updated Django 1.6.2,use of latest modules in 
> each 
> > of them and an helpful documentaion ,would certainly enhance the value 
> of 
> > DjangoBook is what I feel 
> > 
>
> How would this work? The book currently admonishes readers that: 
>
> """ 
> The community edition of The Django Book is in transition. While the 
> book mentions Django version 1.4 in places, the vast majority of the 
> book is for Django version 1.0 
> """ 
>
> So you will write sample projects aimed at 1.6.2 for each chapter in a 
> book written for 1.0? This does not seem wise. 
>
> Cheers 
>
> Tom 
>

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Re: GSOC 2014 Project Proposal

[Tom Evans]

On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 5:31 PM, Devashish Badlani  wrote:
> Sir,
>
>
> Sample projects with the updated Django 1.6.2,use of latest modules in each
> of them and an helpful documentaion ,would certainly enhance the value of
> DjangoBook is what I feel
>

How would this work? The book currently admonishes readers that:

"""
The community edition of The Django Book is in transition. While the
book mentions Django version 1.4 in places, the vast majority of the
book is for Django version 1.0
"""

So you will write sample projects aimed at 1.6.2 for each chapter in a
book written for 1.0? This does not seem wise.

Cheers

Tom

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Re: GSOC 2014 Project Proposal

[Devashish Badlani]

Preparing a sample project to each module of the DjangoBook is what is 
coding,and adding to that documentation using ReST (reStructuredText) , and 
the Sphinx cant that be a GSOC Project .It has code in it ,by all means

Regards,
Devashish Badlani

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Re: GSOC 2014 Project Proposal

[Russell Keith-Magee]

On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Tim Graham  wrote:

> As someone who has worked on Django's docs a lot, I've considered pitching
> in to help update the Django Book. However, I'm not sure it's really the
> best use of time as there's a lot of overlap between Django's docs and the
> book. Unless someone wants to argue otherwise, I suggest we adapt any
> portions of the book that are suitable for the official docs and
> incorporate them.
>
> Regarding the possibility of doing this as a GSoC project, I can't find a
> reference at the moment, but my recollection is that projects need to
> involve mostly code, not documentation, so unless that's incorrect I don't
> think this would be a suitable project for that.
>

I can't find any reference to this either, but I definitely remember that
in the past, they've been strict about the fact that SoC projects must be
primarily code related.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

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Re: GSOC 2014 Project Proposal

[Tim Graham]

As someone who has worked on Django's docs a lot, I've considered pitching 
in to help update the Django Book. However, I'm not sure it's really the 
best use of time as there's a lot of overlap between Django's docs and the 
book. Unless someone wants to argue otherwise, I suggest we adapt any 
portions of the book that are suitable for the official docs and 
incorporate them.

Regarding the possibility of doing this as a GSoC project, I can't find a 
reference at the moment, but my recollection is that projects need to 
involve mostly code, not documentation, so unless that's incorrect I don't 
think this would be a suitable project for that.

On Sunday, February 23, 2014 5:26:52 PM UTC-5, Josh Smeaton wrote:
>
> Would increasing the scope of the django tutorial itself and deprecating 
> the djangobook solve the issue of new users learning django?
>
> - The tutorial does a really great job of introducing the basics.
>
> - Online resources for learning django have improved, significantly, since 
> 0.96. Although it can be difficult to find an up-to-date and correct 
> reference.
>
> - 2 scoops of django handles the more difficult/advanced concepts really 
> well.
>
> - Without someone managing the djangobook alongside django itself, there 
> are going to be times where the book will contain out of date material.
>
> Problems:
>
> - Maintaining an increased scope of the django tutorial would be 
> difficult. As Daniel mentioned, there are no tests for prose. I've heard 
> other core devs speaking about the complexities of keeping the tutorial 
> current.
>
> - Identifying areas for increased scope would have to be done really 
> carefully. What do users have trouble understanding? If it's something like 
> deployment, which methods would be "blessed", and is that appropriate for a 
> "learn django" tutorial or is that more appropriate for an operations guide 
> of some sort?
>
> It's impossible to cover everything in a tutorial/book format without 
> investing significant time and resources as Daniel Greenfield mentioned. 
> This is the domain of authors and publishers traditionally, and 2-scoops is 
> currently filling that role. I don't see how a GSoC project would fix the 
> situation. Even if the participant was able to bring the djangobook into 
> line with 1.6 or 1.7, who would take over and keep it current after that? 
>
> Cheers
>
> Josh
>
>
> On Sunday, 23 February 2014 04:31:16 UTC+11, Devashish Badlani wrote:
>>
>> Sir,
>>
>>
>> Sample projects with the updated Django 1.6.2,use of latest modules in 
>> each of them and an helpful documentaion ,would certainly enhance the value 
>> of DjangoBook is what I feel
>>
>> Regards,
>> Devashish Badlani
>>
>

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Re: GSOC 2014 Project Proposal

[Josh Smeaton]

Would increasing the scope of the django tutorial itself and deprecating 
the djangobook solve the issue of new users learning django?

- The tutorial does a really great job of introducing the basics.

- Online resources for learning django have improved, significantly, since 
0.96. Although it can be difficult to find an up-to-date and correct 
reference.

- 2 scoops of django handles the more difficult/advanced concepts really 
well.

- Without someone managing the djangobook alongside django itself, there 
are going to be times where the book will contain out of date material.

Problems:

- Maintaining an increased scope of the django tutorial would be difficult. 
As Daniel mentioned, there are no tests for prose. I've heard other core 
devs speaking about the complexities of keeping the tutorial current.

- Identifying areas for increased scope would have to be done really 
carefully. What do users have trouble understanding? If it's something like 
deployment, which methods would be "blessed", and is that appropriate for a 
"learn django" tutorial or is that more appropriate for an operations guide 
of some sort?

It's impossible to cover everything in a tutorial/book format without 
investing significant time and resources as Daniel Greenfield mentioned. 
This is the domain of authors and publishers traditionally, and 2-scoops is 
currently filling that role. I don't see how a GSoC project would fix the 
situation. Even if the participant was able to bring the djangobook into 
line with 1.6 or 1.7, who would take over and keep it current after that? 

Cheers

Josh


On Sunday, 23 February 2014 04:31:16 UTC+11, Devashish Badlani wrote:
>
> Sir,
>
>
> Sample projects with the updated Django 1.6.2,use of latest modules in 
> each of them and an helpful documentaion ,would certainly enhance the value 
> of DjangoBook is what I feel
>
> Regards,
> Devashish Badlani
>

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Re: GSOC 2014 Project Proposal

[Devashish Badlani]

Sir,


Sample projects with the updated Django 1.6.2,use of latest modules in each 
of them and an helpful documentaion ,would certainly enhance the value of 
DjangoBook is what I feel

Regards,
Devashish Badlani

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Re: GSOC 2014 Project Proposal

[Florian Apolloner]

Hi,

On Saturday, February 22, 2014 5:47:00 PM UTC+1, Devashish Badlani wrote:
>
> Every beginner I feel first starts with TheDjangoBook itself,he may switch 
> to some other source later.
>

Every beginner I see in #django starts with the tutorial as they should.
 

> I feel keeping the book updated is an important aspect to promote coding 
> in Django which is a very well defined Web Framework.
>

That might be, but then again it would be more important to keep the book 
updated and accurate than writing sample projects for it.

Cheers,
Florian

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Re: GSOC 2014 Project Proposal

[Devashish Badlani]

Sir
Every beginner I feel first starts with TheDjangoBook itself,he may switch
to some other source later.I feel keeping the book updated is an important
aspect to promote coding in Django which is a very well defined Web
Framework.The way codes are sorted as an MVC pattern in Django .
Django Developers will get the much needed push


On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 11:39 AM, Florian Apolloner
wrote:

> To me the Djangobook is basically (sadly) a dead resource, developing
> sample projects against the content/topics of Djangobook is not really a
> GSOC project imo.
>
>
> On Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:36:30 PM UTC+1, Devashish Badlani wrote:
>>
>> I have been an Ex technical editor at Brogels,I have reviewed many
>> articles and was a blogger an year before since then I have got myself in
>> to using Django .I feel by making more interactive Web apps and adding them
>> up for a user can help adding more Django coders
>> TheDjangoBook has 20 modules with 16 weeks of GSOC 2014, I can develop 4
>> sampleprojects for every 3 Weeks in my time at GSOC and can be furthur
>> added to the DjangoBook
>>
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Re: GSOC 2014 Project Proposal

[Florian Apolloner]

To me the Djangobook is basically (sadly) a dead resource, developing 
sample projects against the content/topics of Djangobook is not really a 
GSOC project imo.

On Saturday, February 22, 2014 1:36:30 PM UTC+1, Devashish Badlani wrote:
>
> I have been an Ex technical editor at Brogels,I have reviewed many 
> articles and was a blogger an year before since then I have got myself in 
> to using Django .I feel by making more interactive Web apps and adding them 
> up for a user can help adding more Django coders 
> TheDjangoBook has 20 modules with 16 weeks of GSOC 2014, I can develop 4 
> sampleprojects for every 3 Weeks in my time at GSOC and can be furthur 
> added to the DjangoBook
>

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Re: GSOC 2014 Project Proposal

[Devashish Badlani]

I have been an Ex technical editor at Brogels,I have reviewed many articles 
and was a blogger an year before since then I have got myself in to using 
Django .I feel by making more interactive Web apps and adding them up for a 
user can help adding more Django coders 
TheDjangoBook has 20 modules with 16 weeks of GSOC 2014, I can develop 4 
sampleprojects for every 3 Weeks in my time at GSOC and can be furthur 
added to the DjangoBook

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Re: GSOC 2014 Project Proposal

[Daniel Greenfeld]

Time for me to delurk and cover a few things. I'm not a core developer of 
Django, but I honed my skills on the first edition of the Definitive Guide 
some years ago and am a co-author of a recently released Django-related 
book and it's sequel (Two Scoops of Django). 

First off, I'm not certain what Devashish was asking, but that's okay, I'm 
going to broach the issue of updating djangobook anyway.

As Camilo mentioned, the control of the web version of the book is in the 
hands of the authors. The author with the most recent exercise of control 
is Jacob Kaplan-Moss. Since the last pull request was accepted 9 months 
ago, there have been 34 pull requests submitted for updating content. At 
this moment, the book is a strange mix of 0.96 era and 1.4 era practices, 
confusing anyone new to the framework.

Now I'm not Jacob Kaplan-Moss, and I'm not going to put words in his mouth, 
but I completely understand why no activity has occurred on djangobook.com. 
As a fellow author I can tell you that managing the content on a large, 
heavily studied volume is an unbelievable amount of work. Pull requests are 
nice, but there are no tests suites for prose.

Note #1: There have also been several 'modernized' forks launched, but as 
far as I'm aware, none of them have been consistently maintained.

In any case, as the book is notoriously out-of-date and inconsistently 
updated, when I last requested to Jacob that the book needed a warning 
around it at the end of July, his response was to grant me commit rights. 
Ahem... The warning on the front of djangobook.com, reviewed by a couple of 
others, is my contribution. Considering how frequently the book is still 
recommended and the front page warning ignored, I've considered adding a 
warning bar at the top of every page. That's arguably controversial, and 
I've got enough stress in my life to not warrant any more. 

Note #2: I did consider managing the pull requests and updating 
djangobook.com myself, but the burden it would cause to my already heavy 
workload is too much. (Heck, I want open source time right now but that's 
my business...)

Note #3: I've considered taking djangobook.com off the wikipedia page at 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Django_(web_framework)#Online_resources. 
However, as an author of a published Django book myself, it feels weird and 
arguably inappropriate. So I'm recusing myself from editing if off that 
document.

So where am I going with all this?

Well, I would love to see an updated djangobook.com. I'm tired of people 
emailing me questions asking for help with things on which djangobook.com 
led them astray. I'm not the person to do this work, to manage this 
project, but I think it should be updated and managed by someone. The 
project should be managed by someone in the Django community who:

1. Has a deep understanding of Django. This needs has to be proven via 
current and previous projects or commits available 
2. Has a demonstrable grasp of RestructuredText. 
3. Has excellent writing and reading comprehension skills. They need to 
have publicly available examples of writing.
4. Displays good pull request management techniques. It's easy to accept 
pull requests, it's hard to reject them without hurting people.
5. Should have written technical tutorials available online in HTML format.
6. Can convince Jacob Kaplan-Moss to grant them commit rights.

This _could_ be a GSOC project, or it could be the work of an interested 
party. It would be nice to see it happen, just as it would be nice to see 
djangobook.com taken off the wikipedia page until it does get updated.

In the meantime, unless no core developer objects, after getting yet 
another emailed question about mod_apache deployment (thanks to 
http://www.djangobook.com/en/2.0/chapter12.html); on Monday I'll be adding 
a top-of-the-page warning at djangobook.com.

Regards,

Daniel Greenfeld
pyda...@gmail.com

On Friday, February 21, 2014 7:56:58 AM UTC-8, Camilo Torres wrote:
>
> On Thursday, February 20, 2014 2:42:07 PM UTC-4:30, Devashish Badlani 
> wrote:
>>
>> I am into my last year of graduation and I am currently an intern in Khan 
>> Academy ,Foundation for Learning Equality from IIT Bombay .I have been 
>> developing working with Django for the same
>>
>> *Title*: Building basic Web Frameworks for each module of Django Book 
>> for the beginners 
>>
>> I have prepared sample code which uses a JSON file and converts it in to 
>> a hierarchial topic tree so that a basic developer with the knowledge of 
>> HTML,CSS can easily understand with the documentation to each of the app 
>> prepared the interactive way to code in Django
>>
>> *Sample Code*
>> Git Repo:
>> https://github.com/deebee07
>>
>
> Hello Devashish,
>
> If you are planning to contribute to: http://www.djangobook.com, glad to 
> hear that. The http://www.djangobook.com project is not controlled by the 
> Django  community, but by the book authors. Please look at the "Warning 
> about this edition" in 

Re: GSOC 2014 Project Proposal

[Camilo Torres]

On Thursday, February 20, 2014 2:42:07 PM UTC-4:30, Devashish Badlani wrote:
>
> I am into my last year of graduation and I am currently an intern in Khan 
> Academy ,Foundation for Learning Equality from IIT Bombay .I have been 
> developing working with Django for the same
>
> *Title*: Building basic Web Frameworks for each module of Django Book for 
> the beginners 
>
> I have prepared sample code which uses a JSON file and converts it in to a 
> hierarchial topic tree so that a basic developer with the knowledge of 
> HTML,CSS can easily understand with the documentation to each of the app 
> prepared the interactive way to code in Django
>
> *Sample Code*
> Git Repo:
> https://github.com/deebee07
>

Hello Devashish,

If you are planning to contribute to: http://www.djangobook.com, glad to 
hear that. The http://www.djangobook.com project is not controlled by the 
Django  community, but by the book authors. Please look at the "Warning 
about this edition" in http://www.djangobook.com/en/2.0/index.html to learn 
how you can contribute to that project.

Please, remember this is a list for Django development.

If you are planning to contribute to a project different from 
http://www.djangobook.com/ , 
please disregard this message.

Camilo.

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