Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Elena Williams]

Dear Florian,

Thanks so much for your update/feedback.

I updated the update 
here: https://github.com/elena/django-news-podcast/issues/1

Thanks again!
Elena


On Sunday, December 29, 2013 8:10:30 PM UTC+11, Florian Apolloner wrote:
>
> Just so we are all on the same page here (summarizing discussions from IRC 
> etc):
>
>  * We are not going to support setuptools and distutils, this makes the 
> setupprocess difficult to debug and test imo.
>  * Given Donald's "okay" we might switch to setuptools completely 
>  * There seems to be a bug in pip when installing a wheel, which renders 
> the django-admin.exe unusable on windows, help welcome
>  * PR for this issue is now at: 
> https://github.com/django/django/pull/2116[The original didn't work at all]
>
> Cheers,
> Florian
>
> On Sunday, November 24, 2013 7:18:15 PM UTC+1, Remram wrote:
>>
>> Hi developers, 
>>
>> On Windows, running the django-admin.py tool is painful[1], because 
>> .py scripts are not "executable". You might be able to run it using 
>> the full path (if Python is the default handler for .py files, which 
>> it really shouldn't be). Most probably you'll need to copy it to your 
>> project directory and prefix it with "python " each time. 
>>
>> setuptools has a neat workaround for scripts on Windows, which works 
>> great: it creates a wrapper binary that it puts on the PATH. I know 
>> from previous threads that Django chose to move away from setuptools 
>> and back to distutils, however it is easy to conditionally use this 
>> feature if setuptools are available. That way, Windows developers that 
>> have setuptools installed (which should be, like, all of them) will be 
>> able to run django-admin.py easily. 
>>
>> I submitted a pull request on Github[2] a month ago, then opened a 
>> ticket[3] later on. Apart from an uncommented update from akaariai, I 
>> didn't get any feedback. 
>>
>> I'd really like to see this small change accepted. It is fairly minor 
>> but would work towards restoring the portability that is a strength or 
>> Python. 
>>
>> Thanks for your input/reviews/time, 
>> -- Remram 
>>
>> [1] http://stackoverflow.com/q/19593404/711380 
>> [2] https://github.com/django/django/pull/1812 
>> [3] https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21340 
>>
>> TL;DR: what happened to my patch? 
>>
>

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Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Florian Apolloner]

Just so we are all on the same page here (summarizing discussions from IRC 
etc):

 * We are not going to support setuptools and distutils, this makes the 
setupprocess difficult to debug and test imo.
 * Given Donald's "okay" we might switch to setuptools completely 
 * There seems to be a bug in pip when installing a wheel, which renders 
the django-admin.exe unusable on windows, help welcome
 * PR for this issue is now at: https://github.com/django/django/pull/2116 
[The original didn't work at all]

Cheers,
Florian

On Sunday, November 24, 2013 7:18:15 PM UTC+1, Remram wrote:
>
> Hi developers, 
>
> On Windows, running the django-admin.py tool is painful[1], because 
> .py scripts are not "executable". You might be able to run it using 
> the full path (if Python is the default handler for .py files, which 
> it really shouldn't be). Most probably you'll need to copy it to your 
> project directory and prefix it with "python " each time. 
>
> setuptools has a neat workaround for scripts on Windows, which works 
> great: it creates a wrapper binary that it puts on the PATH. I know 
> from previous threads that Django chose to move away from setuptools 
> and back to distutils, however it is easy to conditionally use this 
> feature if setuptools are available. That way, Windows developers that 
> have setuptools installed (which should be, like, all of them) will be 
> able to run django-admin.py easily. 
>
> I submitted a pull request on Github[2] a month ago, then opened a 
> ticket[3] later on. Apart from an uncommented update from akaariai, I 
> didn't get any feedback. 
>
> I'd really like to see this small change accepted. It is fairly minor 
> but would work towards restoring the portability that is a strength or 
> Python. 
>
> Thanks for your input/reviews/time, 
> -- Remram 
>
> [1] http://stackoverflow.com/q/19593404/711380 
> [2] https://github.com/django/django/pull/1812 
> [3] https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21340 
>
> TL;DR: what happened to my patch? 
>

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Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Donald Stufft]

On Dec 4, 2013, at 5:51 PM, Florian Apolloner  wrote:

> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:20:39 PM UTC+1, Donald Stufft wrote:
> entry points are kinda wonky with pip 1.4, pip 1.5 makes them sane. You would 
> not need a Windows specific Wheel with pip 1.5
> 
> Is there a test-pypi where I could upload Django packages to test this?

Yes, but it’s down right now :( 

> 
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Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Florian Apolloner]

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:20:39 PM UTC+1, Donald Stufft wrote:
>
> entry points are kinda wonky with pip 1.4, pip 1.5 makes them sane. You 
> would not need a Windows specific Wheel with pip 1.5
>

Is there a test-pypi where I could upload Django packages to test this?

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Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Donald Stufft]

On Dec 4, 2013, at 4:31 PM, Florian Apolloner  wrote:

> Oh, one last thing (a few actually):
> How does 'entry_points' work with wheels? 
> Do we need an extra wheel for windows just to get the wrappers right? 
> Can we generate a windows wheel from *nix, or do we need a windows box?
entry points are kinda wonky with pip 1.4, pip 1.5 makes them sane. You would 
not need a Windows specific Wheel with pip 1.5

> Cheers,
> Florian
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 10:24:09 PM UTC+1, Florian Apolloner wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 8:24:49 PM UTC+1, Remram wrote:
> December 4 12:43, Florian Apolloner
> To my understanding of 
> https://github.com/pypa/pip/blob/develop/pip/req.py#L633 pip will use 
> setuptools for installing -- so why do you need setuptools in Django itself?
> The point here is to use options that distutils doesn't offer, like 
> entry_points, if they are available.
> 
> Ah, I assumed that the workaround you mentioned would be setuptools just 
> wrapping everything in 'scripts' -- didn't know that you'll have to use 
> 'entry_points' then.
>  
> Also (refering to your first post), why is associating stuff with .py files a 
> bad idea?
> I personally have .py files associated with my text editor. Defaulting them 
> to the system-wide Python 2.7 might do the correct thing in some cases...
> 
> Oh, that makes sense I guess :) 
> 
> Associating .py files with Python is not enough -- only binaries are searched 
> for in the PATH when typing a path-less command name (.com, .exe, .bat and a 
> few others).
>  
> Okay, that's just horrible!
> 
> Which downsides does using 'entry_points' have for a *nix based system? I'd 
> rather not support disutils and setuptools; this just calls out for pain. My 
> last worry (probably needlessly) is that we might run into issues with one of 
> the hundred setuptools versions out there; all together there is distribute, 
> old setuptools, new setuptools and whatever distris like debian packaged 
> currently -- I don't think most users upgrade setuptools that often, so are 
> there any issues to be expected with stoneold setuptools? [Granted, that's 
> not really our problem, but if we know of some issues we could warn the users]
> 
> Cheers,
> Florian
> 
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Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Florian Apolloner]

Oh, one last thing (a few actually):

   - How does 'entry_points' work with wheels? 
   - Do we need an extra wheel for windows just to get the wrappers right? 
   - Can we generate a windows wheel from *nix, or do we need a windows box?

Cheers,
Florian

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 10:24:09 PM UTC+1, Florian Apolloner wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 8:24:49 PM UTC+1, Remram wrote:
>>
>> December 4 12:43, Florian Apolloner
>>>
>>> To my understanding of 
>>> https://github.com/pypa/pip/blob/develop/pip/req.py#L633 pip will use 
>>> setuptools for installing -- so why do you need setuptools in Django itself?
>>>
>> The point here is to use options that distutils doesn't offer, like 
>> entry_points, if they are available.
>>
>
> Ah, I assumed that the workaround you mentioned would be setuptools just 
> wrapping everything in 'scripts' -- didn't know that you'll have to use 
> 'entry_points' then.
>  
>
>> Also (refering to your first post), why is associating stuff with .py 
>>> files a bad idea?
>>>
>> I personally have .py files associated with my text editor. Defaulting 
>> them to the system-wide Python 2.7 might do the correct thing in some 
>> cases...
>>
>
> Oh, that makes sense I guess :) 
>
> Associating .py files with Python is not enough -- only binaries are 
>> searched for in the PATH when typing a path-less command name (.com, .exe, 
>> .bat and a few others).
>>
>  
> Okay, that's just horrible!
>
> Which downsides does using 'entry_points' have for a *nix based system? 
> I'd rather not support disutils and setuptools; this just calls out for 
> pain. My last worry (probably needlessly) is that we might run into issues 
> with one of the hundred setuptools versions out there; all together there 
> is distribute, old setuptools, new setuptools and whatever distris like 
> debian packaged currently -- I don't think most users upgrade setuptools 
> that often, so are there any issues to be expected with stoneold 
> setuptools? [Granted, that's not really our problem, but if we know of some 
> issues we could warn the users]
>
> Cheers,
> Florian
>

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Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Florian Apolloner]

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 8:24:49 PM UTC+1, Remram wrote:
>
> December 4 12:43, Florian Apolloner
>>
>> To my understanding of 
>> https://github.com/pypa/pip/blob/develop/pip/req.py#L633 pip will use 
>> setuptools for installing -- so why do you need setuptools in Django itself?
>>
> The point here is to use options that distutils doesn't offer, like 
> entry_points, if they are available.
>

Ah, I assumed that the workaround you mentioned would be setuptools just 
wrapping everything in 'scripts' -- didn't know that you'll have to use 
'entry_points' then.
 

> Also (refering to your first post), why is associating stuff with .py 
>> files a bad idea?
>>
> I personally have .py files associated with my text editor. Defaulting 
> them to the system-wide Python 2.7 might do the correct thing in some 
> cases...
>

Oh, that makes sense I guess :) 

Associating .py files with Python is not enough -- only binaries are 
> searched for in the PATH when typing a path-less command name (.com, .exe, 
> .bat and a few others).
>
 
Okay, that's just horrible!

Which downsides does using 'entry_points' have for a *nix based system? I'd 
rather not support disutils and setuptools; this just calls out for pain. 
My last worry (probably needlessly) is that we might run into issues with 
one of the hundred setuptools versions out there; all together there is 
distribute, old setuptools, new setuptools and whatever distris like debian 
packaged currently -- I don't think most users upgrade setuptools that 
often, so are there any issues to be expected with stoneold setuptools? 
[Granted, that's not really our problem, but if we know of some issues we 
could warn the users]

Cheers,
Florian

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Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Remram]

December 4 12:43, Florian Apolloner
>
> To my understanding of 
> https://github.com/pypa/pip/blob/develop/pip/req.py#L633 pip will use 
> setuptools for installing -- so why do you need setuptools in Django itself?
>

Hi Florian,

The point here is to use options that distutils doesn't offer, like 
entry_points, if they are available.

Also (refering to your first post), why is associating stuff with .py files 
> a bad idea?
>

I personally have .py files associated with my text editor. Defaulting them 
to the system-wide Python 2.7 might do the correct thing in some cases...

Associating .py files with Python is not enough -- only binaries are 
searched for in the PATH when typing a path-less command name (.com, .exe, 
.bat and a few others). Doing this, then installing the wrapper from Python 
3, then changing the PATHEXT, and adding the 'Scripts' directories to the 
PATH might work, but can this really be the recommended way (just for 
Django)?

-- 
Remram

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Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Florian Apolloner]

Hi Remram,

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 4:56:55 PM UTC+1, Remram wrote:
>
> November 24 14:37, Florian Apolloner
>>
>> I am pretty much against setuptools and given that pip is somewhat 
>> becoming the defacto-standard to install stuff
>>
>
> I completely agree to this. And setuptools is an important part of pip... 
> In fact, pip has a strong dependency on setuptools, and automagically 
> translates calls to distutils to setuptools to get stuff to work. [1]
>

To my understanding of 
https://github.com/pypa/pip/blob/develop/pip/req.py#L633 pip will use 
setuptools for installing -- so why do you need setuptools in Django 
itself? Also (refering to your first post), why is associating stuff with 
.py files a bad idea?

Cheers,
Florian

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Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Remram]

November 24 14:37, Florian Apolloner
>
> I am pretty much against setuptools and given that pip is somewhat 
> becoming the defacto-standard to install stuff
>

I completely agree to this. And setuptools is an important part of pip... 
In fact, pip has a strong dependency on setuptools, and automagically 
translates calls to distutils to setuptools to get stuff to work. [1]

November 24 14:55, Donald Stufft
>
> The recommended build tool at the moment is setuptools.
>

I agree with this guy! This is very much true outside of Django. See [2] 
for instance...

November 24 18:58, waylan
>
> Of course, on unix based systems we all use virtualenv. There are a few 
> windows virtualenv clones implemented for windows either as batch scripts 
> or powershell scripts. You might want to look into those.


Virtualenv, as in the official tool distributed on virtualenv.org, works 
completely fine on Windows. And of course we use it, in pretty much the 
same way we do on UNIX-like systems, with Django as well as anything else. 
Except that, while other packages work, the django-admin.py tool doesn't.


It seems to me that you are misrepresenting the current state of Python's 
packaging libraries and installation tools, and not only on Windows (see my 
first point). I understand that, for a project as big and important as 
Django, changes in packaging can't be done lightly, especially when they 
only seem to benefit these annoying Windows users; however I really can't 
find sense in the arguments you are presenting here. Of course, you'll do 
as you please, and as you seem to think this discussion has nothing to do 
on django-developers I'll go away (but I'll keep using my patch).

Thanks again for your continued work
Remram

[1] 
http://www.pip-installer.org/en/latest/logic.html#setuptools-pkg-resources
[2] 
https://python-packaging-user-guide.readthedocs.org/en/latest/current.html#installation-tool-recommendations

PS: I apologize for the delayed response as I was travelling

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Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[VernonCole]

Waylan is correct, but does not go far enough.

When one installs Python 3.3, the Python Launcher for Windows is also 
installed. I install Python 3 even on systems where I do not (at present) 
plan to use it, just to get the launcher. The launcher is the program which 
should be associated with .py files on Windows. It is responsible for 
reading the #! line at the top of your Python file and running the correct 
version of Python. The launcher works so well at handling different 
versions that I keep wanting to install it on my Linux boxes as well.

So, I would agree that the Windows installation instructions might indeed 
be altered -- to include installing Python 3.3 (or later), and associating 
the c:\windows\py.exe with .py files.

If you plan to use only a single version of Python, putting that directory 
(and its "scripts" directory) in your PATH is a good idea. But, I feel that 
virtualenvwrapper-win is 
the best way to go.  It works almost exactly like virtualenvwrapper for 
Linux, and if used with PyCharm 3.0 one can almost forget which OS one is 
using.

I am going to investigate using the launcher to pick the correct 
virtualenv.  Meanwhile -1 on the patch.

a
On Sunday, November , 2013 4:58:49 PM UTC-7, waylan wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sunday, November 24, 2013, Rémi Rampin wrote:
>
>> Hi developers,
>>
>> On Windows, running the django-admin.py tool is painful[1], because
>> .py scripts are not "executable". You might be able to run it using
>> the full path (if Python is the default handler for .py files, which
>> it really shouldn't be). Most probably you'll need to copy it to your
>> project directory and prefix it with "python " each time.
>
>
> There are a few things I do whenever I install python on windows.
>
> 1) first, make sure the .py extension is associated with python.exe.
> 2) add the python directory to my path.
> 3) add the scripts directory to my path.
>
> Then, when any packages install scripts (like django-admin.py), they ‘just 
> work’.
>
> If you have multiple versions on python installed, then you can copy 
> python.exe to pythonX.X.exe and make sure the defult version (the version 
> associated with .py) is listed first on your path. The order of dirs on 
> your path in key here, but you can list all the versions on your path. Then 
> you can just type `python3.3` for example, and you'll get that version just 
> like on unix systems.
>
> Of course, on unix based systems we all use virtualenv. There are a few 
> windows virtualenv clones implemented for windows either as batch scripts 
> or powershell scripts. You might want to look into those. Although, I 
> haven't used them myself, so I can't speak to their completeness, 
> reliability or usefulness. I always have git installed which comes with 
> mssys and gives me a bash shell on windows - the best solution IMO 
> (although virtualenv can be a little janky).
>
> Of course, this has entered django-users territory. And additional 
> discussion about how to work around windows limitations should probably be 
> discussed there. My point is that with a correctly configured system, this 
> is not a problem on windows at all.
>
> If there are any changes to make to Django, perhaps the install docs could 
> suggest the additions to the path I mention about as specific to installing 
> on windows.
>
>
> -- 
> Waylan Limberg
>

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Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Waylan Limberg]

On Sunday, November 24, 2013, Rémi Rampin wrote:

> Hi developers,
>
> On Windows, running the django-admin.py tool is painful[1], because
> .py scripts are not "executable". You might be able to run it using
> the full path (if Python is the default handler for .py files, which
> it really shouldn't be). Most probably you'll need to copy it to your
> project directory and prefix it with "python " each time.


There are a few things I do whenever I install python on windows.

1) first, make sure the .py extension is associated with python.exe.
2) add the python directory to my path.
3) add the scripts directory to my path.

Then, when any packages install scripts (like django-admin.py), they ‘just
work’.

If you have multiple versions on python installed, then you can copy
python.exe to pythonX.X.exe and make sure the defult version (the version
associated with .py) is listed first on your path. The order of dirs on
your path in key here, but you can list all the versions on your path. Then
you can just type `python3.3` for example, and you'll get that version just
like on unix systems.

Of course, on unix based systems we all use virtualenv. There are a few
windows virtualenv clones implemented for windows either as batch scripts
or powershell scripts. You might want to look into those. Although, I
haven't used them myself, so I can't speak to their completeness,
reliability or usefulness. I always have git installed which comes with
mssys and gives me a bash shell on windows - the best solution IMO
(although virtualenv can be a little janky).

Of course, this has entered django-users territory. And additional
discussion about how to work around windows limitations should probably be
discussed there. My point is that with a correctly configured system, this
is not a problem on windows at all.

If there are any changes to make to Django, perhaps the install docs could
suggest the additions to the path I mention about as specific to installing
on windows.


-- 
Waylan Limberg

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Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Donald Stufft]

The recommended build tool at the moment is setuptools.

It's up to the individual project to decide if they think the install story for 
setutpools pre 3.4 is appropriate for them. This'll get better in general in 
the future with MSI installers for setuptools and pip



> On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:37 PM, Florian Apolloner  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am pretty much against setuptools and given that pip is somewhat becoming 
> the defacto-standard to install stuff; I'd ask Donald what can be done here 
> (cc'ed him). I don't think it's a good idea to fix this in Django since this 
> is imo a problem in Python itself.
> 
> Regards,
> Florian
> 
>> On Sunday, November 24, 2013 7:18:15 PM UTC+1, Remram wrote:
>> Hi developers, 
>> 
>> On Windows, running the django-admin.py tool is painful[1], because 
>> .py scripts are not "executable". You might be able to run it using 
>> the full path (if Python is the default handler for .py files, which 
>> it really shouldn't be). Most probably you'll need to copy it to your 
>> project directory and prefix it with "python " each time. 
>> 
>> setuptools has a neat workaround for scripts on Windows, which works 
>> great: it creates a wrapper binary that it puts on the PATH. I know 
>> from previous threads that Django chose to move away from setuptools 
>> and back to distutils, however it is easy to conditionally use this 
>> feature if setuptools are available. That way, Windows developers that 
>> have setuptools installed (which should be, like, all of them) will be 
>> able to run django-admin.py easily. 
>> 
>> I submitted a pull request on Github[2] a month ago, then opened a 
>> ticket[3] later on. Apart from an uncommented update from akaariai, I 
>> didn't get any feedback. 
>> 
>> I'd really like to see this small change accepted. It is fairly minor 
>> but would work towards restoring the portability that is a strength or 
>> Python. 
>> 
>> Thanks for your input/reviews/time, 
>> -- Remram 
>> 
>> [1] http://stackoverflow.com/q/19593404/711380 
>> [2] https://github.com/django/django/pull/1812 
>> [3] https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21340 
>> 
>> TL;DR: what happened to my patch? 

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Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Florian Apolloner]

Hi,

I am pretty much against setuptools and given that pip is somewhat becoming 
the defacto-standard to install stuff; I'd ask Donald what can be done here 
(cc'ed him). I don't think it's a good idea to fix this in Django since 
this is imo a problem in Python itself.

Regards,
Florian

On Sunday, November 24, 2013 7:18:15 PM UTC+1, Remram wrote:
>
> Hi developers, 
>
> On Windows, running the django-admin.py tool is painful[1], because 
> .py scripts are not "executable". You might be able to run it using 
> the full path (if Python is the default handler for .py files, which 
> it really shouldn't be). Most probably you'll need to copy it to your 
> project directory and prefix it with "python " each time. 
>
> setuptools has a neat workaround for scripts on Windows, which works 
> great: it creates a wrapper binary that it puts on the PATH. I know 
> from previous threads that Django chose to move away from setuptools 
> and back to distutils, however it is easy to conditionally use this 
> feature if setuptools are available. That way, Windows developers that 
> have setuptools installed (which should be, like, all of them) will be 
> able to run django-admin.py easily. 
>
> I submitted a pull request on Github[2] a month ago, then opened a 
> ticket[3] later on. Apart from an uncommented update from akaariai, I 
> didn't get any feedback. 
>
> I'd really like to see this small change accepted. It is fairly minor 
> but would work towards restoring the portability that is a strength or 
> Python. 
>
> Thanks for your input/reviews/time, 
> -- Remram 
>
> [1] 
> http://stackoverflow.com/q/19593404/711380
>  
> [2] 
> https://github.com/django/django/pull/1812
>  
> [3] 
> https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21340
>  
>
> TL;DR: what happened to my patch? 
>

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Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Rémi Rampin]

Hi developers,

On Windows, running the django-admin.py tool is painful[1], because
.py scripts are not "executable". You might be able to run it using
the full path (if Python is the default handler for .py files, which
it really shouldn't be). Most probably you'll need to copy it to your
project directory and prefix it with "python " each time.

setuptools has a neat workaround for scripts on Windows, which works
great: it creates a wrapper binary that it puts on the PATH. I know
from previous threads that Django chose to move away from setuptools
and back to distutils, however it is easy to conditionally use this
feature if setuptools are available. That way, Windows developers that
have setuptools installed (which should be, like, all of them) will be
able to run django-admin.py easily.

I submitted a pull request on Github[2] a month ago, then opened a
ticket[3] later on. Apart from an uncommented update from akaariai, I
didn't get any feedback.

I'd really like to see this small change accepted. It is fairly minor
but would work towards restoring the portability that is a strength or
Python.

Thanks for your input/reviews/time,
-- Remram

[1] http://stackoverflow.com/q/19593404/711380
[2] https://github.com/django/django/pull/1812
[3] https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/21340

TL;DR: what happened to my patch?

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