Re: [Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
--+
 Reporter:  Besnik  |Owner:  (none)
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  new
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  dev
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+
Changes (by Ülgen Sarıkavak):

 * cc: Ülgen Sarıkavak (added)

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Re: [Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
--+
 Reporter:  Besnik  |Owner:
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  new
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  master
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+
Changes (by timgraham):

 * version:  1.2 => master
 * component:  Translations => Internationalization


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Re: [Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
---+
 Reporter:  Besnik   |Owner:
 Type:  New feature|   Status:  new
Component:  Translations   |  Version:  1.2
 Severity:  Normal |   Resolution:
 Keywords: | Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0  |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0  |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0  |UI/UX:  0
---+
Changes (by zerok):

 * owner:  zerok =>
 * status:  assigned => new


Comment:

 Sorry, but I didn't find and probably won't find the time this ticket
 requires. I've therefor deasigned it.

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Re: [Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
---+
 Reporter:  Besnik   |Owner:  zerok
 Type:  New feature|   Status:  assigned
Component:  Translations   |  Version:  1.2
 Severity:  Normal |   Resolution:
 Keywords: | Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0  |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0  |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0  |UI/UX:  0
---+

Comment (by zerok):

 One issue I see there so far is how to deal with setups where USE_L10N is
 disabled. Should in this case a fallback implementation be just used from
 locales.en.formats or should this be integrated in the global_settings
 module? IMO the first one makes more sense since this would be the one and
 only callable in the whole settings module right now which would break the
 style there.

 Something else I'd like to get in there is having the system still be
 based around messages in order to allow users to get their custom
 "context" (referencing the noun the ordinal is intended for) into the
 message. This way languages like Spanish that don't have a gender-neutral
 ordinal-indicator could detect the necessary gender from something like {{
 num|ordinal:"email" }}.

 I don't know if the ordinal would always reference the same noun in a
 sentence independent of the language but it should get around at least
 some of the edge cases.

 @Besnik Would this help in your situation?

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Re: [Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
---+
 Reporter:  Besnik   |Owner:  zerok
 Type:  New feature|   Status:  assigned
Component:  Translations   |  Version:  1.2
 Severity:  Normal |   Resolution:
 Keywords: | Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0  |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0  |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0  |UI/UX:  0
---+

Comment (by zerok):

 Yes, I was thinking along the same line. formats.py is probably the best
 place for this too. At first I thought that may be localflavor would be
 better, but since that is based around countries and not languages,
 formats.py sounds to me like the ideal place.

 I will try to come up with an implementation in the next week or so.

 Sorry for the delay on this.

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Re: [Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
---+
 Reporter:  Besnik   |Owner:  zerok
 Type:  New feature|   Status:  assigned
Component:  Translations   |  Version:  1.2
 Severity:  Normal |   Resolution:
 Keywords: | Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0  |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0  |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0  |UI/UX:  0
---+

Comment (by claudep):

 Proposal: Allow defining a `def ordinal(value):` function in
 conf/locale//formats.py. We could then generate the ordinal string
 by calling `get_format('ordinal')(value)`.

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Re: [Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
---+
 Reporter:  Besnik   |Owner:  zerok
 Type:  New feature|   Status:  assigned
Component:  Translations   |  Version:  1.2
 Severity:  Normal |   Resolution:
 Keywords: | Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0  |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0  |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0  |UI/UX:  0
---+
Changes (by zerok):

 * owner:  nobody => zerok
 * status:  new => assigned


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Re: [Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
---+
 Reporter:  Besnik   |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature|   Status:  new
Component:  Translations   |  Version:  1.2
 Severity:  Normal |   Resolution:
 Keywords: | Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0  |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0  |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0  |UI/UX:  0
---+

Comment (by aaugustin):

 Yeah, the fixed proposed here is "better than nothing, fixes it for a few
 languages". It's by no means a definitive solution.

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Re: [Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
---+
 Reporter:  Besnik   |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature|   Status:  new
Component:  Translations   |  Version:  1.2
 Severity:  Normal |   Resolution:
 Keywords: | Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0  |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0  |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0  |UI/UX:  0
---+

Comment (by claudep):

 I'm not suprised at all by your findings. I maintain my original opinion:
 the rules are too much diverse to be able to solve this by mere
 translation.

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Re: [Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
---+
 Reporter:  Besnik   |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature|   Status:  new
Component:  Translations   |  Version:  1.2
 Severity:  Normal |   Resolution:
 Keywords: | Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0  |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0  |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0  |UI/UX:  0
---+

Comment (by zerok):

 Given the severe differences between how different languages "count"
 wouldn't that in the worst case require the context to actually include
 the number itself?

 I skimmed a little bit through
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_indicator and some pages about the
 Japanese and Chinese languages going with at worst 1-10+above should be
 enough except for following exceptions:

 * Swedish: Here every number that ends with a 1 or 2 has to suffixed with
 ":a" instead of ":e"
 * Russian
 * Catalan
 * Galician, Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish: The suffix depends on the
 gender of the noun to be counted

 That being said, the list on Wikipedia looks very incomplete, but if the
 information about very widely uses languages like Spanish is correct here,
 the context would have to include the whole number, which looks rather
 impractical to me :-/

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Re: [Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
---+
 Reporter:  Besnik   |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature|   Status:  new
Component:  Translations   |  Version:  1.2
 Severity:  Normal |   Resolution:
 Keywords: | Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0  |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0  |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0  |UI/UX:  0
---+
Changes (by jezdez):

 * stage:  Design decision needed => Accepted


Comment:

 I agree with aausgustin's idea of using pgettext. It's better than
 nothing.

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Re: [Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
-+-
 Reporter:  Besnik |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature  |   Status:  new
Component:  Translations |  Version:  1.2
 Severity:  Normal   |   Resolution:
 Keywords:   | Triage Stage:  Design
Has patch:  0|  decision needed
  Needs tests:  0|  Needs documentation:  0
Easy pickings:  0|  Patch needs improvement:  0
 |UI/UX:  0
-+-
Changes (by aaugustin):

 * ui_ux:   => 0
 * easy:   => 0


Comment:

 We might improve things slightly by using `pgettext_lazy` instead of
 `ugettext_lazy`.

 That would make it possible to distinguish the `'th'` for 0 from the
 `'th'` for 5 in this list:
 {{{
 suffixes = (_('th'), _('st'), _('nd'), _('rd'), _('th'), _('th'), _('th'),
 _('th'), _('th'), _('th'))
 }}}

 Would this be useful? If it isn't, then I think we should just close this
 as "wontfix".

 Handling gender in the `ordinal` filter is another topic, I suggest
 opening another ticket for this feature if you deem it useful.

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Re: [Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
-+--
   Reporter:  Besnik   | Owner:  
nobody
 Status:  new| Milestone:   
 
  Component:  Translations   |   Version:  
1.2   
 Resolution: |  Keywords:   
 
   Triage Stage:  Design decision needed | Has patch:  
0 
Needs documentation:  0  |   Needs tests:  
0 
Patch needs improvement:  0  |  
-+--
Changes (by russellm):

  * stage:  Unreviewed => Design decision needed


Comment:

 Marking this DDN. Like claudep, I'm not convinced this is even possible,
 but i18n isn't my specialty.

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Re: [Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
+---
  Reporter:  Besnik   | Owner:  nobody
Status:  new| Milestone:
 Component:  Translations   |   Version:  1.2   
Resolution: |  Keywords:
 Stage:  Unreviewed | Has_patch:  0 
Needs_docs:  0  |   Needs_tests:  0 
Needs_better_patch:  0  |  
+---
Comment (by claudep):

 The ordinal template tag of contrib.humanize is not fully localizable in
 several languages, indeed. But I think this is an unresolvable issue.
 There are just too many different cases to consider as the algorithm may
 be different for each language. I suggest to look at the code and
 implement it for your own specific needs (languages).

 This reminds me about a similar discussion in the GNOME Nautilus File
 Manager (see e.g. https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=325284 and
 http://git.gnome.org/browse/nautilus/tree/libnautilus-private/nautilus-
 file-operations.c#n440).

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Re: [Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
+---
  Reporter:  Besnik   | Owner:  nobody
Status:  new| Milestone:
 Component:  Translations   |   Version:  1.2   
Resolution: |  Keywords:
 Stage:  Unreviewed | Has_patch:  0 
Needs_docs:  0  |   Needs_tests:  0 
Needs_better_patch:  0  |  
+---
Changes (by Besnik ):

  * needs_better_patch:  => 0
  * component:  Uncategorized => Translations
  * needs_tests:  => 0
  * needs_docs:  => 0

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[Django] #15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales

[Django]

#15156: Ordinal numbers in English and in other locales
---+
 Reporter:  Besnik   |   Owner:  nobody
   Status:  new|   Milestone:
Component:  Uncategorized  | Version:  1.2   
 Keywords: |   Stage:  Unreviewed
Has_patch:  0  |  
---+
 Some of the strings on contrib-humanize.po could be not used for Albanian
 locale (sq). I suppose other locales have the same issue with the way
 English build ordinal numbers using '''th''', '''st''', '''nd''' and
 '''rd''' (as in 4th, 15th, 2nd, etc). To make things even more
 complicated, there is gender to be considered here. As an example, the
 word used for "month" and the one used for "week" have different gender in
 Albanian.

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