Re: [dmarc-ietf] Start of DMARC WG + proposed milestones

2014-08-25 Thread Kurt Andersen
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:09 PM, Tim Draegen  wrote:

>
> On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:35 PM, Kurt Andersen  wrote:
>
> >   Once the milestones discussion has settled..., Ned and myself will
> create an outline of topics and work items that, when worked through,
> should have the WG arrive at its deliverables.
> >
> > =- Tim
>
> What about adopting a somewhat more agile, less waterfall strategy?
>
>
> So, the WG will maintain an "official focus" that will track the
> milestones to allow for wider participation.  That said, work on items that
> are ahead of the official focus (or even behind if something is overlooked
> and important) is most definitely encouraged, because it doesn't make sense
> to nip constructive work in the bud just to follow process.  The only
> caveat I can think of is that topics/work-items will necessarily remain
> open until the WG officially focuses on them (again with the aim of
> inviting wide participation).
>
> I hope the above is an acceptable compromise between remaining agile with
> respect to work items while keeping a schedule for those of that require an
> explicit time & place to be productive.
>

That sounds reasonable to me. Thanks for the detail.

--Kurt
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Re: [dmarc-ietf] Start of DMARC WG + proposed milestones

2014-08-25 Thread Steven M Jones
I agree with most of the commentary I've seen in this thread. I just
wanted to highlight one milestone:

> - EOY 2014: Deliverable #1 (above document + possible methods to address).
> - 92nd IETF: Deliverable #2 - Document describing DMARC improvements to 
> better support indirect mail flows. 

So that's delivery of #2 during the last week of March, 2015, or about
eight months from now. And roughly three months after Deliverable #1,
including possible methods to address interop issues, is delivered.

How much "running code"[1] is Deliverable #2 supposed to reflect? Even
bearing in mind Tim's note about not being too limited by
"waterfalling," we'd want to have solidly identified the mechanisms to
be tested well before the holiday season - especially given lead times
for larger organizations/operators, where it might take three months
just to implement and package any changes.

I know this is all pretty flexible at this stage, so again I'm just
wondering if at this stage we have a notion of whether and/or how much
operational experience we expect to inform Deliverable #2?

Either way, I'm glad to see us moving forward.
--Steve.


[1]  Dr. Dave Clark, http://www.ietf.org/tao.html, etc. I always thought
it was "rough consensus and working code," glad I checked.

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Re: [dmarc-ietf] [apps-discuss] Start of DMARC WG + proposed milestones

2014-08-25 Thread Dave Crocker
On 8/18/2014 8:31 AM, Tim Draegen wrote:
> If you have comments on the milestones, please provide them by August 25th.  
> Have fun,

Mostly small, suggested wording tweaks, to improve clarity and possibly
avoid some unnecessary points of controversy.

There's one (???) with a change I think is correct.  If it isn't the
reason needs to be made explicit.


> [1] http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/dmarc/charter/

>  Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting & Conformance (DMARC)
> uses existing mail authentication technologies (SPF and DKIM) to
> extend validation to the RFC5322.From field. DMARC uses DNS records

   to extend -> and extends

DKIM and SPF don't do the extending. DMARC does.  DKIM and SPF are
merely underpinnings.


> to add policy-related requests for receivers and defines a feedback
> mechanism from receivers back to domain owners. This allows a domain
> owner to advertise that mail can safely receive differential
> handling, such as rejection, when the use of the domain name in the
> From field is not authenticated. Existing deployment of DMARC has
> demonstrated utility at internet scale, in dealing with significant

   internet -> Internet


> email abuse, and has permitted simplifying some mail handling
> processes. However, DMARC is problematic for mail that does not flow

  for mail that does not flow -> for indirect mail flows that are not


> from operators having a relationship with the domain owner, directly

   directly -> and directl

('direct' vs. 'indirect' is an essential issue and the terminology needs
to be established here, to make the late use clear.)


> to receivers operating the destination mailbox (for example, mailing

   mailbox ( for mailing -> mailbox.  Examples include mailing


> lists, publish-to-friend functionality, mailbox forwarding via
> ".forward", and third-party services that send on behalf of clients).
> The working group will explore possible updates and extensions to the
> specifications in order to address limitations and/or add

   specifications -> specifications


> capabilities. It will also provide technical implementation guidance
> and review possible enhancements elsewhere in the mail handling
> sequence that could improve DMARC compatibility.
> 
> The existing DMARC base specification has been submitted as an
> Independent Submission to become an Informational RFC.
> 
> Specifications produced by the working group will ensure preservation
> of DMARC utility for detecting unauthorized use of domain names,

hmmm.  on reflection, this works better as a positve:

   utility for detecting authorized use of domain names

Use for detecting unauthorized use is far more complicated and
potentially controversial.  Use for detecting authorized use is
straightforward.


> while improving the identification of legitimate sources that do not
> currently conform to DMARC requirements. Issues based on operational
> experience and/or data aggregated from multiple sources will be given
> priority.
> 
> The working group will seek to preserve interoperability with the
> installed base of DMARC systems, and provide detailed justification
> for any non-interoperability. As the working group develops solutions
> to deal with indirect mail flows, it will seek to maintain the
> end-to-end nature of existing identifier fields in mail, in
> particular avoiding solutions that require rewriting of originator
> fields.
> 
> Working group activities will pursue three tracks:
> 
> 1. Addressing the issues with indirect mail flows
> 
> The working group will specify mechanisms for reducing or eliminating
> the DMARC's effects on indirect mail flows, including deployed

 delete [the]


> behaviors of many different intermediaries, such as mailing list
> managers, automated mailbox forwarding services, and MTAs that
> perform enhanced message handling that results in message

   handling that -> handling, which

(if only to reduce the number of 'that's in the sentence...)


> modification. Among the choices for addressing these issues are:
> 
> - A form of DKIM signature that is better able to survive transit
> through intermediaries.
> 
> - Collaborative or passive transitive mechanisms that enable an
> intermediary to participate in the trust sequence, propagating
> authentication directly or reporting its results.
> 
> - Message modification by an intermediary, to avoid authentication
> failures, such as by using specified conventions for changing
> the aligned identity.
> 
> Consideration also will be given to survivable authentication through
> sequences of multiple intermediaries.
> 
> 2. Reviewing and improving the base DMARC specification
> 
> The working group will not develop additional mail authentication
> technologies, but may document authentication requirements that are

   document authentication -> document additional authentication

(???)


> desirable.

If they are 'desireable' they are not 'requirements'.  If they are
requirements they are not merely de