Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
Steve Litt wrote: > Svante Signell wrote: > > > On Fri, 2015-01-30 at 17:39 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? > > > > > > I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. > > > > So, what's the problem with grub? > > No problem with Grub. Grub2 is the problem. Millions of files messing > with millions of variables, and sometime following the instructions of > which programs compile those files and which program puts it on the > mbr/guid or whatever it's called actually works. > > I can probably find you five different ways in the Internet to change > the font size on booting, and none of them works. > > Just like systemd, it's great if someone else does it for you, it's > horrific if you have to do some DIY. Hi Steve, Beside the bug that caused me to jump ship, I didn't find GRUB too bad. Just instead of one config file you have lots of them. :^) The old GRUB with one config file was slightly more convenient. Getting a kind of command shell from GRUB is amazing, really very cool. However, there is a cost in complexity. Not everyone wants to learn all the ins and out of this large system. For Devuan, I would advocate and support a long-term interest in LILO. I think we would want to allow people solve their problems with less and simpler code. Joel > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 08:09:56PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Fri, 30 Jan 2015 13:46:01 -1000 > Joel Roth wrote: > > > Steve Litt wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? > > > > > > I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. > > > > GRUB is brilliant, and complicated. I recently had an issue > > with update-grub hanging on trying to read from a swap > > partition, or some such. Every Debian upgrade would run > > update-grub, and hang the system. > > > > Reported it, okay, but then as a workaround looked into > > LILO. It is *very* capable, boots my system without drama. > > > > What exactly do you need? > > I need capable, boots without drama, and for extra points, can do efi > (I hear elilo does that). Looks like I'll be trying LILO. > > Will Devuan have LILO, ELILO, and syslinux/extlinux as package options? Hope so. I'm using lilo on the wheezy system I'm planning to upgrade. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Fri,On Fri, 30 Jan 2015, Steve Litt wrote: > Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? > > I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. > > SteveT > I'm sure you know it already, but it is definitely worth pointing out the classic LILO is still maintained Though it isn't as horrible as Systemd, I agree that Grub2 is a nightmare. I would be willing to call it the "Systemd of boot loaders." But as I understand it, Grub2 is now the default in Debian, isn't it? Grub1, or "Grub Legacy" as it's now called, is fine. But if any distro wants to use it, I strongly suggest the patched version which supports UEFI booting (as well as old-fashioned MBR booting). As I mentioned in a recent post, my attempt to boot AntiX (a Debian distro which uses Grub1 as default) failed because I had my laptop set up to use UEFI booting. I ran into the same problem with PCLinuxOS for the same reason. The patched version of Grub1 has been around for a few years now, but is seldom used. Despite its age, LILO is good. Slackware uses it by default, and I had no issues when I tried booting it UEFI style. You do have to make sure to have ELILO available if you want to use it with UEFI. cheers, Robert ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
Steve, to my knowledge, in Debian, there aren't any dependencies on any bootloader that aren't for configuration tools, so unlike systemd you can replace it at will. in fact, i'm pretty sure you can completely remove all bootloader related packages and use something else completely. That said, the initial release of Devuan will have the minimal amount of changes to enable people to choose to not have systemd. --Gravis On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > On Sat, 31 Jan 2015 00:19:55 +0100 > Svante Signell wrote: > >> On Fri, 2015-01-30 at 17:39 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: >> > Hi all, >> > >> > Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? >> > >> > I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. >> >> So, what's the problem with grub? > > No problem with Grub. Grub2 is the problem. Millions of files messing > with millions of variables, and sometime following the instructions of > which programs compile those files and which program puts it on the > mbr/guid or whatever it's called actually works. > > I can probably find you five different ways in the Internet to change > the font size on booting, and none of them works. > > Just like systemd, it's great if someone else does it for you, it's > horrific if you have to do some DIY. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Fri, 30 Jan 2015 13:46:01 -1000 Joel Roth wrote: > Steve Litt wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? > > > > I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. > > GRUB is brilliant, and complicated. I recently had an issue > with update-grub hanging on trying to read from a swap > partition, or some such. Every Debian upgrade would run > update-grub, and hang the system. > > Reported it, okay, but then as a workaround looked into > LILO. It is *very* capable, boots my system without drama. > > What exactly do you need? I need capable, boots without drama, and for extra points, can do efi (I hear elilo does that). Looks like I'll be trying LILO. Will Devuan have LILO, ELILO, and syslinux/extlinux as package options? Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Sat, 31 Jan 2015 00:19:55 +0100 Svante Signell wrote: > On Fri, 2015-01-30 at 17:39 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? > > > > I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. > > So, what's the problem with grub? No problem with Grub. Grub2 is the problem. Millions of files messing with millions of variables, and sometime following the instructions of which programs compile those files and which program puts it on the mbr/guid or whatever it's called actually works. I can probably find you five different ways in the Internet to change the font size on booting, and none of them works. Just like systemd, it's great if someone else does it for you, it's horrific if you have to do some DIY. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 05:39:28PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? > > I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. > > SteveT Besides (e)lilo, there's (sys|ext|iso)linux and grub4dos-chenall. grub4dos is a superset of grub legacy: it supports boot from ntfs, loading a DOS kernel, and find --set-root among other things. The grub4dos maintainer said "GRUB2 does what I'm after, project retired", but someone involved in more Windows-oriented projects picked it up because grub2 is not a trivial update for many projects that use grub4dos. HTH, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Svante Signell wrote: > On Fri, 2015-01-30 at 17:39 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? >> >> I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. > > So, what's the problem with grub? > Even without a "problem" it isn't hard to see how someone looking for a system with a smaller codebase would want a replacement for grub if a simpler solution works well for them: 549138 total lines in grub git repo master 62378 total lines in LILO git repo master Anyone interested in continued LILO development should contact the developer as he is currently planning to stop maintenance at the end of the year. If it were the default bootloader in a popular distro, or explicitly targeted long term, there would certainly be a resurgence in interest from the community at large too... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 02:54:12PM -0800, Philip Keogh wrote: > On Fri, 30 Jan 2015, Philip Keogh wrote: > > On Fri, 30 Jan 2015, Steve Litt wrote: > > > Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? > > > > > > I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. > > > > > > SteveT > > > > > > > I'm sure you know it already, but it is definitely worth pointing out > > the classic LILO is still maintained: > > http://kernelnewbies.org/KernelDebug > > > > Apoligies for the incorrect URL - correct LILO upstream link below: > http://lilo.alioth.debian.org/ Apparently there's also an elilo. I'm not sure what the difference is. Perhaps something to do with EFI stuff? Anyway. I'm currently booting my wheezy using lilo on a floppy. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? > > I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. GRUB is brilliant, and complicated. I recently had an issue with update-grub hanging on trying to read from a swap partition, or some such. Every Debian upgrade would run update-grub, and hang the system. Reported it, okay, but then as a workaround looked into LILO. It is *very* capable, boots my system without drama. What exactly do you need? > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Fri, 2015-01-30 at 17:39 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? > > I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. So, what's the problem with grub? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Fri, 30 Jan 2015, Philip Keogh wrote: > On Fri, 30 Jan 2015, Steve Litt wrote: > > Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? > > > > I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. > > > > SteveT > > > > I'm sure you know it already, but it is definitely worth pointing out > the classic LILO is still maintained: > http://kernelnewbies.org/KernelDebug > Apoligies for the incorrect URL - correct LILO upstream link below: http://lilo.alioth.debian.org/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Fri, 30 Jan 2015, Steve Litt wrote: > Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? > > I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. > > SteveT > I'm sure you know it already, but it is definitely worth pointing out the classic LILO is still maintained: http://kernelnewbies.org/KernelDebug ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Boot loader?
Hi all, Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Announcing libsysdev 0.1.0
On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 01:11:39PM -0800, Isaac Dunham wrote: > I've just released libsysdev 0.1.0. > Source code may be found at: > https://github.com/idunham/libsysdev/archive/0.1.0.tar.gz > (I'll have to tag releases using a different approach.) > > There's an initial port of xf86-input-evdev to libsysdev at: > https://github.com/idunham/xf86-input-evdev Packaged both for Arch: https://git.fleshless.org/pkgbuilds/tree/libsysdev https://git.fleshless.org/pkgbuilds/tree/xf86-input-evdev-libsysdev Did not test, so if anyone wants to, that'd be nice. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
