Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 08:44:17PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Sat, 31 Jan 2015 20:31:07 -0500 > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 12:59:51PM -0500, Neo Futur wrote: > > > I completely agree with most of the comments above about grub2. > > > I manage dedicated server and build my own grsec kernel, so I often > > > have to use the bootloader, so many times I couldnt get it to boot > > > with grub2 after hours trying and as soon as I tried with lilo or > > > grub-legacy it worked immediately my kernel was not at fault but > > > some obscure grub2 problem. > > > > > > So I upvote this idea of having devuan coming with a different > > > default bootloader, wether it is grub1 or lilo ( or whatever is > > > simple enough to be used by an average human, meaning not grub2 ) > > > > Lilo is easy to use, its configuration files are somewhat > > comprehensible, but it dooes take a while befre you understand > > what's what, because the interaction between syntax and semantics > > isn't that well documented (at least, it wsan't long ago when I still > > needed to read it). > > > > THe big problem with lilo is that at the time of running the lilo > > command, it figures out exactly where the boot-time files are and > > sets up a table to be used at boot time. If those files are moved on > > disk for any reason, even if they're in the same logical location i > > the file system, it won't boot. > > > > Such file movement cab happen when one upgrades the kernel to a new > > version that still has the same file name. Of course, when you > > upgrade the kernel, dpkg will cause lilo to be rerun.. But if > > something goe wrong with that, you could be doomed. > > Not necessarily doomed. Bust back in with System Rescue CD or Super > Grub Disk, chroot yourself into a replica of the system's file > hierarchy, repair the LILO file, and rerun lilo. Perhaps detailed instructions for doing this should be in the documentation for devuan -- somewhere where the home user is likely to see it. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Sat, 31 Jan 2015 20:31:07 -0500 Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 12:59:51PM -0500, Neo Futur wrote: > > I completely agree with most of the comments above about grub2. > > I manage dedicated server and build my own grsec kernel, so I often > > have to use the bootloader, so many times I couldnt get it to boot > > with grub2 after hours trying and as soon as I tried with lilo or > > grub-legacy it worked immediately my kernel was not at fault but > > some obscure grub2 problem. > > > > So I upvote this idea of having devuan coming with a different > > default bootloader, wether it is grub1 or lilo ( or whatever is > > simple enough to be used by an average human, meaning not grub2 ) > > Lilo is easy to use, its configuration files are somewhat > comprehensible, but it dooes take a while befre you understand > what's what, because the interaction between syntax and semantics > isn't that well documented (at least, it wsan't long ago when I still > needed to read it). > > THe big problem with lilo is that at the time of running the lilo > command, it figures out exactly where the boot-time files are and > sets up a table to be used at boot time. If those files are moved on > disk for any reason, even if they're in the same logical location i > the file system, it won't boot. > > Such file movement cab happen when one upgrades the kernel to a new > version that still has the same file name. Of course, when you > upgrade the kernel, dpkg will cause lilo to be rerun.. But if > something goe wrong with that, you could be doomed. Not necessarily doomed. Bust back in with System Rescue CD or Super Grub Disk, chroot yourself into a replica of the system's file hierarchy, repair the LILO file, and rerun lilo. [snip] > I try to have multiple ways of booting my system, just in case. Truer words have never been spoken. It might even be a good idea to have a tiny, no initramfs, Linux you can boot to in case. I used to do that all the time. By the way, I wasn't saying LILO or extlinux should be the *default*, I was just saying they should be available as packages. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 12:59:51PM -0500, Neo Futur wrote: > I completely agree with most of the comments above about grub2. > I manage dedicated server and build my own grsec kernel, so I often > have to use the bootloader, so many times I couldnt get it to boot > with grub2 after hours trying and as soon as I tried with lilo or > grub-legacy it worked immediately my kernel was not at fault but some > obscure grub2 problem. > > So I upvote this idea of having devuan coming with a different default > bootloader, wether it is grub1 or lilo ( or whatever is simple enough > to be used by an average human, meaning not grub2 ) Lilo is easy to use, its configuration files are somewhat comprehensible, but it dooes take a while befre you understand what's what, because the interaction between syntax and semantics isn't that well documented (at least, it wsan't long ago when I still needed to read it). THe big problem with lilo is that at the time of running the lilo command, it figures out exactly where the boot-time files are and sets up a table to be used at boot time. If those files are moved on disk for any reason, even if they're in the same logical location i the file system, it won't boot. Such file movement cab happen when one upgrades the kernel to a new version that still has the same file name. Of course, when you upgrade the kernel, dpkg will cause lilo to be rerun.. But if something goe wrong with that, you could be doomed. grub, on the other hand, can read the file system at boot time (for some file systems), and it can still find them. The more complicated the file system supported, the more complicated the code that has to be available at boot time. I try to have multiple ways of booting my system, just in case. grub can boot it directly from a hard disk's boot record; lilo is set up to boot from a floppy. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
jude is correct, kernel mode setting resolved this a shade under a decade ago. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_setting --Gravis On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 3:13 PM, Jude Nelson wrote: >> (If I recall correctly, non-root X is only possible with systemd or >> on openbsd, so that's a moot point for now.) > > From what I recall reading up on this, you should be able to run X as an > unprivileged user on Linux without systemd as long as your video card has a > driver with KMS support. IIRC, most distros ship a setuid X wrapper that > opens the video card device file, does the privileged KMS ioctl()'s on it, > and then hands them off the real X server by exec()'ing it without closing > them. As long as X can go on to read sysfs and the input device files as > well, you should be good to go without either udev or systemd. ChromeOS > does this, for example, and it uses Upstart. > > -Jude > > On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:18 PM, Isaac Dunham wrote: >> >> On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 12:59:51PM -0500, Neo Futur wrote: >> > going further than just grub, I think it could be good for devuan to >> > be the distro coming with different default packages, a few ideas : >> > >> > * grub/lilo as a default bootloader >> > * trinity ( great fork of kde3 ) as a default DE >> > * a grsecurity enabled kernel ? >> > * eudev or other udev alternative >> > * more generally always choosing the alternatives that are the most >> > respectful of users and unix philosophy, as defaults >> >> I will note that there is an interesting complication with grsecurity >> kernels: >> The X server needs to be able to read sysfs or else have a connection >> with a daemon that can, or drivers will not be properly loaded and >> configured. >> grsec has an option that makes sysfs and procfs unreadable except by >> root, so that X needs udev or must run as root. >> >> (If I recall correctly, non-root X is only possible with systemd or >> on openbsd, so that's a moot point for now.) >> > another idea to make devuan different : >> > >> > * shipping a server oriented flavour, with no DE as a default, a grsec >> > kernel as a default and only the packages needed for a server, that >> > could also be used as a minimal install, small download, that you can >> > later upgrade, add a DE . . . >> >> "No DE as a default": does this this mean not having GNOME/KDE but >> perhaps X11, (v)twm or similar, xutils/xapps, and xterm? >> Or does it mean no X? >> >> I presume it would include openssh and maybe a lightweight vim. >> >> Thanks, >> Isaac Dunham >> >> ___ >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
Neo Futur writes: > So I upvote this idea of having devuan coming with a different default > bootloader, wether it is grub1 or lilo ( or whatever is simple enough > to be used by an average human, meaning not grub2 ) I don't like grub2, and I like lilo less than grub2, I agree to change bootloader but please choose one that's capable to boot linux from a xfs filesystem. > * trinity ( great fork of kde3 ) as a default DE I vote to choose a VUA's wm (fluxbox, spectrwm, ...) as default and no DE at all. Ciao, Micky -- The sysadmin has all the answers, expecially "No" ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
> (If I recall correctly, non-root X is only possible with systemd or > on openbsd, so that's a moot point for now.) >From what I recall reading up on this, you should be able to run X as an unprivileged user on Linux without systemd as long as your video card has a driver with KMS support. IIRC, most distros ship a setuid X wrapper that opens the video card device file, does the privileged KMS ioctl()'s on it, and then hands them off the real X server by exec()'ing it without closing them. As long as X can go on to read sysfs and the input device files as well, you should be good to go without either udev or systemd. ChromeOS does this, for example, and it uses Upstart. -Jude On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:18 PM, Isaac Dunham wrote: > On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 12:59:51PM -0500, Neo Futur wrote: > > going further than just grub, I think it could be good for devuan to > > be the distro coming with different default packages, a few ideas : > > > > * grub/lilo as a default bootloader > > * trinity ( great fork of kde3 ) as a default DE > > * a grsecurity enabled kernel ? > > * eudev or other udev alternative > > * more generally always choosing the alternatives that are the most > > respectful of users and unix philosophy, as defaults > > I will note that there is an interesting complication with grsecurity > kernels: > The X server needs to be able to read sysfs or else have a connection > with a daemon that can, or drivers will not be properly loaded and > configured. > grsec has an option that makes sysfs and procfs unreadable except by > root, so that X needs udev or must run as root. > > (If I recall correctly, non-root X is only possible with systemd or > on openbsd, so that's a moot point for now.) > > another idea to make devuan different : > > > > * shipping a server oriented flavour, with no DE as a default, a grsec > > kernel as a default and only the packages needed for a server, that > > could also be used as a minimal install, small download, that you can > > later upgrade, add a DE . . . > > "No DE as a default": does this this mean not having GNOME/KDE but > perhaps X11, (v)twm or similar, xutils/xapps, and xterm? > Or does it mean no X? > > I presume it would include openssh and maybe a lightweight vim. > > Thanks, > Isaac Dunham > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Sat, 1/31/15, Isaac Dunham wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Boot loader? To: "Neo Futur" Cc: "dng@lists.dyne.org" Date: Saturday, January 31, 2015, 1:18 PM On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 12:59:51PM -0500, Neo Futur wrote: > > * trinity ( great fork of kde3 ) as a default DE > > * shipping a server oriented flavour, with no DE as a default "No DE as a default": does this this mean not having GNOME/KDE . . . Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ IIRC, it has already been announced that xfce will be the default DE for Devuan. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
> "No DE as a default": does this this mean not having GNOME/KDE but > perhaps X11, (v)twm or similar, xutils/xapps, and xterm? > Or does it mean no X? I meant no X, but that would only be for a possible "minimalist untra secure server oriented" release, also the grsec kernel would probably be a default only for this server oriented release. > I presume it would include openssh and maybe a lightweight vim. sure you will need ssh and vim for a server ;) > > Thanks, > Isaac Dunham > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 12:59:51PM -0500, Neo Futur wrote: > going further than just grub, I think it could be good for devuan to > be the distro coming with different default packages, a few ideas : > > * grub/lilo as a default bootloader > * trinity ( great fork of kde3 ) as a default DE > * a grsecurity enabled kernel ? > * eudev or other udev alternative > * more generally always choosing the alternatives that are the most > respectful of users and unix philosophy, as defaults I will note that there is an interesting complication with grsecurity kernels: The X server needs to be able to read sysfs or else have a connection with a daemon that can, or drivers will not be properly loaded and configured. grsec has an option that makes sysfs and procfs unreadable except by root, so that X needs udev or must run as root. (If I recall correctly, non-root X is only possible with systemd or on openbsd, so that's a moot point for now.) > another idea to make devuan different : > > * shipping a server oriented flavour, with no DE as a default, a grsec > kernel as a default and only the packages needed for a server, that > could also be used as a minimal install, small download, that you can > later upgrade, add a DE . . . "No DE as a default": does this this mean not having GNOME/KDE but perhaps X11, (v)twm or similar, xutils/xapps, and xterm? Or does it mean no X? I presume it would include openssh and maybe a lightweight vim. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On Sat, 1/31/15, Neo Futur wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Boot loader? To: "dng@lists.dyne.org" Date: Saturday, January 31, 2015, 11:59 AM * trinity ( great fork of kde3 ) as a default DE OMG . . . N. It's bloatware second only to Gnome. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
I completely agree with most of the comments above about grub2. I manage dedicated server and build my own grsec kernel, so I often have to use the bootloader, so many times I couldnt get it to boot with grub2 after hours trying and as soon as I tried with lilo or grub-legacy it worked immediately my kernel was not at fault but some obscure grub2 problem. So I upvote this idea of having devuan coming with a different default bootloader, wether it is grub1 or lilo ( or whatever is simple enough to be used by an average human, meaning not grub2 ) going further than just grub, I think it could be good for devuan to be the distro coming with different default packages, a few ideas : * grub/lilo as a default bootloader * trinity ( great fork of kde3 ) as a default DE * a grsecurity enabled kernel ? * eudev or other udev alternative * more generally always choosing the alternatives that are the most respectful of users and unix philosophy, as defaults another idea to make devuan different : * shipping a server oriented flavour, with no DE as a default, a grsec kernel as a default and only the packages needed for a server, that could also be used as a minimal install, small download, that you can later upgrade, add a DE . . . I think many people in the "no systemd for me please" community are system admins and this could help gather more sysadmins around the project. On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 12:05 PM, Daniel Cegiełka wrote: > Hi, > > 1) lilo is always a Russian roulette. It's too risky solution. (+NOTE: > I plan to finish development of LILO at 12/2015 because of some > limitations (e.g. with BTFS, GPT, RAID): > http://lilo.alioth.debian.org/). > 2) Grub 2 is ugly and blown solution. > > In my opinion the most interesting solution is extlinux, which is > something between lilo and grub. > > http://jasonwryan.com/blog/2012/07/09/syslinux/ > > Daniel > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
Hi, 1) lilo is always a Russian roulette. It's too risky solution. (+NOTE: I plan to finish development of LILO at 12/2015 because of some limitations (e.g. with BTFS, GPT, RAID): http://lilo.alioth.debian.org/). 2) Grub 2 is ugly and blown solution. In my opinion the most interesting solution is extlinux, which is something between lilo and grub. http://jasonwryan.com/blog/2012/07/09/syslinux/ Daniel ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
On 2015-01-31 06:01, Joel Roth wrote: Steve Litt wrote: Svante Signell wrote: > On Fri, 2015-01-30 at 17:39 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? > > > > I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. > > So, what's the problem with grub? No problem with Grub. Grub2 is the problem. Millions of files messing with millions of variables, and sometime following the instructions of which programs compile those files and which program puts it on the mbr/guid or whatever it's called actually works. I can probably find you five different ways in the Internet to change the font size on booting, and none of them works. Just like systemd, it's great if someone else does it for you, it's horrific if you have to do some DIY. Hi Steve, Beside the bug that caused me to jump ship, I didn't find GRUB too bad. Just instead of one config file you have lots of them. :^) The old GRUB with one config file was slightly more convenient. Getting a kind of command shell from GRUB is amazing, really very cool. However, there is a cost in complexity. Not everyone wants to learn all the ins and out of this large system. For Devuan, I would advocate and support a long-term interest in LILO. I think we would want to allow people solve their problems with less and simpler code. Joel SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance Hello to all, pardon me for intruding the discussion without a proper presentation, about bootloaders I'm experimenting with iPXE, its a replacement for pxe bootloader and it allows to load wireless drivers and netboot. I know is not legacy bootloader, but I just wanted to point it out because is utterly powerfull, like doing netboot from http/s, and not many people as of yet knows about it, it even boot from floppy and UEFI and has a interactive shell. I would advocate what has already being state in dng, given the choice let the users decide what they want. Good day 2 all, and pardon the intrusion (and pardon me Joel for having replied to you and not to the list). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
