Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 18:40:43 -0600
Nate Bargmann  wrote:

> * On 2015 17 Feb 16:48 -0600, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:41:12 -0500
> > Neo Futur  wrote:
> > 
> > > > Nate, could you please summarize Luke's question? I haven't been
> > > > able to completely read any of his posts.
> > > its more than just a question, but you probably want :
> > > 
> > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00695.html
> > 
> > The preceding link covers as much territory as the Roman Empire.
> > Nate asked the following:
> > 
> > =
> > And yet I find it telling that none has so far answered Luke's
> > question as to why they are not bothered about the recent changes
> > and direction as he is.  Was it bad for me to presume that no one
> > would answer? =
> > 
> > So I ask *which* recent changes and direction? Systemd?
> 
> That is what Luke is referring to AIUI.  Here is the relevant portion
> of his post which, although long, I found to be good reading:
> 
> ---8<
> 
> so, marco, you wrote:
> 
> > Again, you clearly do not understand well how systemd works.
> 
> marco: understanding or otherwise how systemd works is not the point:
> the point is that there has been a unilateral decision across
> virtually every single GNU/Linux distro to abandon and remove *any*
> alternative to having libsystemd0 installed.  historical precedent in
> the software industry and beyond tells us that placing so much power
> and trust in a single system and a single group should be ringing
> alarm bells so loudly in your head that you should wake up deaf after
> having first passed out with dizziness! :)
> 
> so could i ask you, as i really genuinely don't understand, why is it
> that the lack of choice here *doesn't* bother you?  i'm not asking for
> a technical review or a technically-based argument as to "why
> libsystemd0 is better" - that has been debated many many times and is
> entirely moot.  i'm asking "why does *only* having libsystemd0 as the
> sole exclusive startup method, removal of which prevents and prohibits
> the use of a whopping FIFTEEN PERCENT of the available debian software
> base, and where that exclusive exclusionary process is being rapidly
> duplicated across virtually every single GNU/Linux distribution that
> we know; why does that *not* make you pause for thought that there
> might be something desperately and very badly wrong?"
> 
> 
> ->8---
> 
> 
> The question at the end of the quoted text will likely not be
> answered, at least in public, although there is a recent post which
> amounts to, "We like it this way".  So be it.

Ahhh, that question.

Just for reference, this was what you posted earlier:

==
And yet I find it telling that none has so far answered Luke's question
as to why they are not bothered about the recent changes and direction
as he is.  Was it bad for me to presume that no one would answer?
==

At the time (and until this email), I had *assumed* your reference to
"none" meant nobody on *this* list, and I was thinking that lots of
people on this list had expressed many things, especially back on
Debian-User.

If "none" referred to systemd afficianados, apoligists, and
anti-anti-systemd people, then it wasn't bad to presume they wouldn't
answer: they're more interested in propaganda than DIYable or
repairable OS's. And they believe Red Hat's poetterbs.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

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[Dng] Devuan Weekly News XII

[Noel Torres]

# Devuan Weekly News Issue XII

__Volume 002, Week 7, Devuan Week 12__

https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-weekly-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-002/issue-012


## Editorial

__Hit a Wall?  Here's a Ladder__

An uneasy wind blew fetid laments of arrogance and ivory towering.

These accusations are plain wrong.  They come as voices from people
invited to a cooking party sitting on their asses and complaining to
the host who just arrived from the market that the meal is not ready.
If you see a wall, you should get up from your chair and move around
it.

OK, the site sucks, the absence of logo sucks, the release is not
ready, Winter is too cold, Summer is too hot, etc.  There's plenty to
complain about.  But if you look around, you'll see a vastness of
empty space with work to do that's just waiting for you to pick it up
and make it nice.

If _you lack time_, the [Devuan Weekly News][wiki] is saving you some
by pointing to what's being said on the mailing list.  It's volunteer
work, and you're welcome to give a hand.  As the list traffic grows,
more attention is required to read everything and get to the point.
Every week.

If _you have time_, you can [explore the
Gitlab](https://git.devuan.org/explore) and see what's cooking.  You
can even register an account and chime in, opening issues, solving
issues, meeting people, and joining teams.

Here's from the [project's wiki][1]:

> During the initial phase, until 1.0 is released, we shall follow a
> very simple conceptual line: the more you do, the stronger your
> voice on decisions.

(Hint: complaining and bikeshedding are not "doing")

.-hellekin


## Last Week in Devuan

### [About separate mailing lists][2]

The first issue to track this week started in DWN XI, where Noel
"Envite" raised the question of separating the single DNG list (this
one) into a users list and a dev list. Steve Litt suggested that maybe
the line should be drawn differently, like code Vs. philosophy, which
was effectively in line with Envite's proposal. Others suggest that it
is not the moment, or that users should be aware of what developers
do. The thread also had its own amount of litter.

### [Community polls on Devuan design][3]

The thread about the logo poll saw an announce of partial results from
Jaromil as well as a recommendation to the design team about keeping
these results in mind when designing. It seems this whole thread created
some confusion, as hellekin points out later.

The DWN team (currently Noel "Envite" and hellekin) wants to state that:

* Our opinions count exactly the same as any other opinion.
* We try to provide a neutral view of what is happening on Devuan, but
  we positively do not refrain from shedding our own light on it.
* We welcome you to help us, and cast your own light as well.
* We do not endorse any logo proposal.
* We think democracy (and polls) are not always the best solution,
  specially when they can cause discussions on the [roof of a
  bikeshed][4].
* We think that a dedicated visual design team is a good idea, and
  that it should be a part of, and fully attentive to the community.

In summary: please keep Devuan Jessie going on, whatever we use for
the roof of the bikeshed (or as the distribution logo).

### [Raspberry Pi 2][5]

Robert Storey highlights the newly released Raspberry Pi 2, which
could be used to test ARM support for Devuan. Jaromil informed about
the possibility of selling Devuan preinstalled Raspberry Pi boxes. Wim
reported that Raspberry Foundation will use Debian Jessie with systemd
included. We also got news about ARM machines bought by Devuan.

### [Kali Linux][6]

The previous thread offspringed this one about whether Kali Linux does
actually have systemd. The consensus (trolls permitting) is that it
doesn't in the standard installation.

### Bastille Linux

The discussion about Bastille Linux keeps going on with quite a high
trolling level (it is not an error there is no link here). If somebody
deserves to be quoted, he is william moss, [throwing some sanity
in][7].

### [Guidelines][8]

Mitt requests guidelines about trademarks and non-free stuff. Our
hellekin notes that the current focus is on providing a systemd-free
Jessie, with almost no other changes.

### [*dev and screen resolution][9]

SteveT asks if `vdev` could not change screen resolution. The various
answers point that no `*dev` actually does that, but may delegate the
functionality to a module that does on its own.

### [depinit][10]

Jonathan Wilkes indicates `depinit`, yet another alternate init
system.

### [Has modern Linux lost its way?][11]

Nate Bargmann started this week's most prolific thread by pointing to
a blog post by John Goerzen in which the issue of "modern Linux" being
difficult to administer and troubleshoot is discussed.

Article and followup by John are [here][12] and [here][13].

The thread has a fair amount of thanks posts and its dose of troll
posts. In fact, the list people seems to mostly agree on the points,
and in particula

Re: [Dng] trios already packaging openrc and removed libsystemd0

[Clarke Sideroad]

On 02/17/15 20:17, Jaromil wrote:

TRIOS is a great effort. I personally use zfs in production and approve their 
technical choices including openrc which I believe to be a good candidate for 
Devuan's future too.

with Devuan we will keep the focus of matching Debian as much as possible for the 
1.0, yet I look forward to Dragan's &co to coordinate on tasks and 
infrastructure we can share to have TRIOS benefit from our work and perhaps reach 
more target builds.

meanwhile let's give TRIOS the visibility it deserves and a big clap!

ciao



I've been using it on this box my main home/office computer.
I am writing this on it.
I switch back and forth between it and my own mix and match Debian sid 
sans systemd, when I screw that up (currently hosed printing) Trios is 
my trustworthy fall back.   That speaks well for it as I make a good 
portion of my living using this Linux box.
Yes I know I should be using stable,  but it is not an option due to 
hardware requirements and backports has systemd and hell I'm not really 
a stable type anyway. (-;


I'm also running  the Devuan Valentine alpha on my old laptop as it is 
32bit, but  I really have not had much chance to play with it yet.


I imagine there will be a lot of back and forth sharing as time goes on 
that is the nature of the free and open world.
Debian Jessie is being forked but really it is a whole lot more going 
forward for all the "No systemd" distros, look at all the bright spots, 
look at the advancements made already.


As systemd based Linux systems gradually implode into their own navels, 
there will be replacements and choices all under the GNU/Linux Tent,  no 
doom and gloom here. (-:


Clarke
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Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)

[Donkey Saplot]

Ouch, was this necessary in anyway ? (If anything, it's disappointing to 
me. Let's act like adults...)


Donkey Saplot

On 2015-02-17 18:23, Steve Litt wrote:
> Right now, the remnants of the Debian-User mailing list are declaring
> victory, and yelling their usual counter-revolutionary rhetoric. I
> especially like these:
>
> ==
> In short, this is TL;DR. We've all got better things to waste our time
> on. Please go away. Nobody's interested in this any longer regardless
> of their position on systemd.
> ==
>
> ==
> The worst effect of systemd is that it appears to make its
> partisans feel free to act like five year olds who have had
> too much caffeine.
> ==
>
> Reading these, I smiled, knowing that while the remaining Debian-User
> couch potatoes flap their gums, we overcaffeinated five year olds are
> creating a depoetterized Debian fork/derivative/whatever, as proven by
> the secret pre-alpha Valentine running in my VM.
>
> Thank you Jaromil. Thank you Devuan community.
>
> SteveT
>
>
>
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Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)

[Jaromil]

On February 17, 2015 10:41:12 PM GMT+01:00, Neo Futur  wrote:
>> Nate, could you please summarize Luke's question? I haven't been able
>> to completely read any of his posts.
>its more than just a question, but you probably want :
>
>https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00695.html
>
>( that I just added to my systemd vault list of important links to
>read on the topic )


this is a very good read.

thanks for posting it, thanks Luke for keeping up such a pleasant, fragrant and 
hate-free discussion. you can always count on Devuan to back your well informed 
arguments with a pragmatic implementation of the other possible worlds current 
Debian leaders are denying to exist. to their own disgrace, on the long term, 
I'm sure.

reading you keeps my hope alive, that sometimes leaders may still change idea 
and choose an option that contemplates everyone's needs and intentions.

ciao
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Re: [Dng] trios already packaging openrc and removed libsystemd0

[Jaromil]

TRIOS is a great effort. I personally use zfs in production and approve their 
technical choices including openrc which I believe to be a good candidate for 
Devuan's future too.

with Devuan we will keep the focus of matching Debian as much as possible for 
the 1.0, yet I look forward to Dragan's &co to coordinate on tasks and 
infrastructure we can share to have TRIOS benefit from our work and perhaps 
reach more target builds.

meanwhile let's give TRIOS the visibility it deserves and a big clap!

ciao

On February 17, 2015 7:00:39 PM GMT+01:00, Go Linux  wrote:
>On Tue, 2/17/15, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton  wrote:
>
> Subject: [Dng] trios already packaging openrc and removed libsystemd0
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
> Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2015, 11:49 AM
> 
>> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=119836
> 
>> !!  did anyone have a clue that this has already been done?  i
>> didn't!! :)  why is this stuff so hard to find??
> 
>
>
>It's not at all hard to find.  This post was started last October:
>
>http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=118319
>
>Ad the Trios link was posted on THIS list by DragonFOSS many months
>ago.  ;)
>
>And also here:
>
>http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>
>
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Re: [Dng] The value of good docs: was pre-alpha-valentine on qemu

[Jaromil]

hey thanks everyone I actually didnt know the --enable-kvm Switch was such an 
improvement :-) this will make the development process snappier

feedback on how the pre alpha feels is welcome, we shall work on making a few 
things better, looking fwd to dimkr input if we can already get around logind 
in such an early stage that would be awesome (but not strictly necessary IMO)

ciao

On February 17, 2015 11:53:01 PM GMT+01:00, Steve Litt 
 wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 21:48:02 +
>KatolaZ  wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:36:38AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
>> 
>> [cut]
>> 
>> > 
>> > Then KatolaZ exactly documented the four steps to installation, and
>> > I said "I can do that in my sleep, while doing other work!" So I
>> > did it, and it worked (although slowly because -enable-kvm wasn't
>> > in the commands). KatolaZ' four step document.
>> > 
>> 
>> Sorry guys for forgetting the -enable-kvm switch, but as I said I was
>> practically asleep when I wrote the nano-howto. Fortunately this was
>> spotted quite soon :) Hope this has not had a bad impact on potential
>> DVNRs (to be read "Devuaners" :P) ...
>> 
>> HND
>> 
>> KatolaZ
>> 
>
>KatolaZ,
>
>Quite the opposite. I congratulate you on your great four step
>document. That doc singlehandedly got me to try pre-alpha Valentine.
>The fact that you left out one thing is trivial because it brought us
>very close to the exact four instructions. I think too many people
>decide not to write such docs in order not to risk leaving something
>out, but my belief is the perfect is the enemy of the good, and besides
>that, if you write good docs, somebody is bound to find and point out
>any deficiencies, along with suggested corrections.
>
>The only bad effect it had on me was the happiness I got getting it to
>work. My doctor told me every happy person eventually dies.
>
>:-)
>
>I'm copying the dng list because, for whatever reason, your post didn't
>make it to the DNG list, even though your post was addressed to the DNG
>list.
>
>Thanks again for the great instructions. Keep up the good work.
>
>SteveT
>
>Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
>Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance
>
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Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan - Conflict of Interest

[Noel Torres]

On Thursday, 12 de February de 2015 18:28:15 Usspookes Lovesystemd escribió:
> Why? Bastille is/was great.
> 
> It didn't change, the rug was pulled out from underneath it.
> Who would have thought routines in TK and ncurses would be
> Dpreeeciattteedd!!! (gay voice of the SJWers)

I'll put it clear.

Will you help packaging it?

Thanks


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Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2015 17 Feb 16:48 -0600, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:41:12 -0500
> Neo Futur  wrote:
> 
> > > Nate, could you please summarize Luke's question? I haven't been
> > > able to completely read any of his posts.
> > its more than just a question, but you probably want :
> > 
> > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00695.html
> 
> The preceding link covers as much territory as the Roman Empire. Nate
> asked the following:
> 
> =
> And yet I find it telling that none has so far answered Luke's question
> as to why they are not bothered about the recent changes and direction
> as he is.  Was it bad for me to presume that no one would answer?
> =
> 
> So I ask *which* recent changes and direction? Systemd?

That is what Luke is referring to AIUI.  Here is the relevant portion of
his post which, although long, I found to be good reading:

---8<

so, marco, you wrote:

> Again, you clearly do not understand well how systemd works.

marco: understanding or otherwise how systemd works is not the point:
the point is that there has been a unilateral decision across
virtually every single GNU/Linux distro to abandon and remove *any*
alternative to having libsystemd0 installed.  historical precedent in
the software industry and beyond tells us that placing so much power
and trust in a single system and a single group should be ringing
alarm bells so loudly in your head that you should wake up deaf after
having first passed out with dizziness! :)

so could i ask you, as i really genuinely don't understand, why is it
that the lack of choice here *doesn't* bother you?  i'm not asking for
a technical review or a technically-based argument as to "why
libsystemd0 is better" - that has been debated many many times and is
entirely moot.  i'm asking "why does *only* having libsystemd0 as the
sole exclusive startup method, removal of which prevents and prohibits
the use of a whopping FIFTEEN PERCENT of the available debian software
base, and where that exclusive exclusionary process is being rapidly
duplicated across virtually every single GNU/Linux distribution that
we know; why does that *not* make you pause for thought that there
might be something desperately and very badly wrong?"


->8---


The question at the end of the quoted text will likely not be answered,
at least in public, although there is a recent post which amounts to,
"We like it this way".  So be it.

Okay, enough OT stuff.  Luke et. al. are contributing to our knowledge
base.  I am feeling out paths of freeing at least my main desktop since,
as demonstrated by the Valentine's ISO, Xfce and Lightdm become rather
neutered by the simple removal of systemd as init even though systemd
and systemd-shim are installed.  I also see the same error when trying
to mount the CDROM image as I did on this desktop last year when I opted
for systemd-shim instead of the full systemd--"Failed to mount "CDROM";
Not authorized to perform operation".

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

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[Dng] Question about properly splitting packages

[Isaac Dunham]

Hello,
I've got a question about how to split a library package so it works well
with multiarch.
The source package in question is libsysdev.
When properly configured, it installs roughly the following files:
/usr/lib/*/libsysdev.so.0.0 (and symlinks)
/usr/lib/*/libsysdev.a
/usr/lib/*/pkgconfig/libsysdev.pc
/usr/bin/devinfo
/usr/include/sysdev/libsysdev.h (this is not per-arch)
/usr/share/doc/libsysdev/README
/usr/share/doc/libsysdev/LICENSE
/usr/share/man/man1/devinfo.1
/usr/share/man/man3/libsysdev.3

I'm guessing that it should be split so there are 5 packages (2 arch=all,
3 arch=any):
arch=any:
libsysdev   depends: libsysdev-common
(*.so.*)
libsysdev-dev   depends: libsysdev, libsysdev-common-dev
(*.pc, *.a, *.so ->*.so.*)
libsysdev-tools depends: libsysdev
(/usr/bin, /usr/share/man/man1)
arch=all:
libsysdev-common
(/usr/share/doc)
libsysdev-common-dev
(/usr/include, /usr/share/man/man3)

In theory, this allows libsysdev-dev:i386 and libsysdev-dev:amd64 to be
installed in parallel.
Is this the proper way of splitting it?

Thanks,
Isaac Dunham
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Re: [Dng] The value of good docs: was pre-alpha-valentine on qemu

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 21:48:02 +
KatolaZ  wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:36:38AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> [cut]
> 
> > 
> > Then KatolaZ exactly documented the four steps to installation, and
> > I said "I can do that in my sleep, while doing other work!" So I
> > did it, and it worked (although slowly because -enable-kvm wasn't
> > in the commands). KatolaZ' four step document.
> > 
> 
> Sorry guys for forgetting the -enable-kvm switch, but as I said I was
> practically asleep when I wrote the nano-howto. Fortunately this was
> spotted quite soon :) Hope this has not had a bad impact on potential
> DVNRs (to be read "Devuaners" :P) ...
> 
> HND
> 
> KatolaZ
> 

KatolaZ,

Quite the opposite. I congratulate you on your great four step
document. That doc singlehandedly got me to try pre-alpha Valentine.
The fact that you left out one thing is trivial because it brought us
very close to the exact four instructions. I think too many people
decide not to write such docs in order not to risk leaving something
out, but my belief is the perfect is the enemy of the good, and besides
that, if you write good docs, somebody is bound to find and point out
any deficiencies, along with suggested corrections.

The only bad effect it had on me was the happiness I got getting it to
work. My doctor told me every happy person eventually dies.

:-)

I'm copying the dng list because, for whatever reason, your post didn't
make it to the DNG list, even though your post was addressed to the DNG
list.

Thanks again for the great instructions. Keep up the good work.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

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Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:41:12 -0500
Neo Futur  wrote:

> > Nate, could you please summarize Luke's question? I haven't been
> > able to completely read any of his posts.
> its more than just a question, but you probably want :
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00695.html

The preceding link covers as much territory as the Roman Empire. Nate
asked the following:

=
And yet I find it telling that none has so far answered Luke's question
as to why they are not bothered about the recent changes and direction
as he is.  Was it bad for me to presume that no one would answer?
=

So I ask *which* recent changes and direction? Systemd? Everyone's
spoken on their reasons for hating that. Monolithic entanglement and
complexification in general? Many have stated their exact reasons for
disliking those. Not having libsystemd0 load dynamically, and more
importantly having upstreams treat it as optional? The NSA/libselinux1
thing? Something else?

By the way, note to Luke: Your stuff would be *much* easier to read if
you used normal capitalization. Personally, I find it much harder to
read text, especially long text, when my only parse point is
separating by periods.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
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Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 04:41:12PM -0500, Neo Futur wrote:
> > Nate, could you please summarize Luke's question? I haven't been able
> > to completely read any of his posts.
> its more than just a question, but you probably want :
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00695.html
> 
> ( that I just added to my systemd vault list of important links to
> read on the topic )

I think Luke's efforts are definitely laudable, but seriously guys:
succintness is called for, especially in large MLs with thousands of
users. And it should mean something if it's said by one of the most
verbose mailinglisters on planet Earth :)

Luke: there is no way to change history, unfortunately. Debian has
decided, and will go downhill on systemd, and nobody can do anything
to stop this. It's unbelievable, and sad, and dull, but it's not gonna
change  

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
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Re: [Dng] The value of good docs: was pre-alpha-valentine on qemu

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:36:38AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:

[cut]

> 
> Then KatolaZ exactly documented the four steps to installation, and I
> said "I can do that in my sleep, while doing other work!" So I did it,
> and it worked (although slowly because -enable-kvm wasn't in the
> commands). KatolaZ' four step document.
> 

Sorry guys for forgetting the -enable-kvm switch, but as I said I was
practically asleep when I wrote the nano-howto. Fortunately this was
spotted quite soon :) Hope this has not had a bad impact on potential
DVNRs (to be read "Devuaners" :P) ...

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
[ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ]
[ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ]
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Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)

[Neo Futur]

> Nate, could you please summarize Luke's question? I haven't been able
> to completely read any of his posts.
its more than just a question, but you probably want :

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00695.html

( that I just added to my systemd vault list of important links to
read on the topic )
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Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 13:28:28 -0600
Nate Bargmann  wrote:

> And yet I find it telling that none has so far answered Luke's
> question as to why they are not bothered about the recent changes and
> direction as he is.  Was it bad for me to presume that no one would
> answer?
> 
> - Nate

Nate, could you please summarize Luke's question? I haven't been able
to completely read any of his posts.

SteveT

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Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)

[Nate Bargmann]

And yet I find it telling that none has so far answered Luke's question
as to why they are not bothered about the recent changes and direction
as he is.  Was it bad for me to presume that no one would answer?

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

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Re: [Dng] trios already packaging openrc and removed libsystemd0

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 6:00 PM, Go Linux  wrote:
> On Tue, 2/17/15, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton  wrote:
>
>  Subject: [Dng] trios already packaging openrc and removed libsystemd0
>  To: dng@lists.dyne.org
>  Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2015, 11:49 AM
>
>> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=119836
>
>> !!  did anyone have a clue that this has already been done?  i
>> didn't!! :)  why is this stuff so hard to find??
>
> 
>
> It's not at all hard to find.

 i'm... i'm going to use the excuse that i'm going cross-eyed (no,
really: too much computer use...).

> This post was started last October:
>
> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=118319

 missed it

> Ad the Trios link was posted on THIS list by DragonFOSS many months ago.  ;)

 missed that too

> And also here:
>
> http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

 how did i miss that?  oh... yeah, i can see how: it's a huge
unclassified list.  i tried going through a few of them but gave up
after reviewing the first... ten or so.

 i'll create an account and add a bit about it.

l.
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Re: [Dng] trios already packaging openrc and removed libsystemd0

[Dragan FOSS]

>Author: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
>Date: 2015-02-17 18:49 +100
>To: dng
>Subject: [Dng] trios already packaging openrc and removed libsystemd0
>http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=119836
>
>!! did anyone have a clue that this has already been done? i
>didn't!! :) why is this stuff so hard to find?? 

:)

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150215.211902.3366365f.en.html

TRIOS is currently the best jessie based linux distro without systemd on 
planet..period.

Live iso:

http://mirror.org.rs/image/TRIOS-Mia-RC1-Build_2015-01-08.iso

Cheers
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Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 14 Feb 2015 21:36:00 +
Jaromil  wrote:

> 
> re all,
> 
> Here is a pre-alpha sneak preview of Devuan at the current state of
> affairs. 

Jaromil,

This couldn't have come at a better moment!

Right now, the remnants of the Debian-User mailing list are declaring
victory, and yelling their usual counter-revolutionary rhetoric. I
especially like these:

==
In short, this is TL;DR. We've all got better things to waste our time
on. Please go away. Nobody's interested in this any longer regardless
of their position on systemd.
==

==
The worst effect of systemd is that it appears to make its
partisans feel free to act like five year olds who have had 
too much caffeine.
==

Reading these, I smiled, knowing that while the remaining Debian-User
couch potatoes flap their gums, we overcaffeinated five year olds are
creating a depoetterized Debian fork/derivative/whatever, as proven by
the secret pre-alpha Valentine running in my VM.

Thank you Jaromil. Thank you Devuan community.

SteveT

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Re: [Dng] trios already packaging openrc and removed libsystemd0

[Richard]

PS: their ISO is 64 bit only which eliminates my currently accesible
equipment. RH

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 1:56 PM, Richard  wrote:

> Actually Dragan posted the link on 8-Jan-2015 in this list.
>
> They are well along in removing systemd.
> The image  was an easy install on my desktop at home.
> But I've been away with only 2 AA1 netbooks and an S2.
>
> Problem is most of their devs only speak Serbian.
> Their development is somewhat, more open, but lang is an impediment;
> although any post in English is answered intelligently.
>
> Main site: https://foss.rs/
> and forums: https://foss.rs/#trios-gnu-linux-distribution.192
> and there is a News section and one English section in the forum.
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Go Linux  wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 2/17/15, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton  wrote:
>>
>>  Subject: [Dng] trios already packaging openrc and removed libsystemd0
>>  To: dng@lists.dyne.org
>>  Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2015, 11:49 AM
>>
>> > http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=119836
>>
>> > !!  did anyone have a clue that this has already been done?  i
>> > didn't!! :)  why is this stuff so hard to find??
>>
>> 
>>
>> It's not at all hard to find.  This post was started last October:
>>
>> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=118319
>>
>> Ad the Trios link was posted on THIS list by DragonFOSS many months ago.
>> ;)
>>
>> And also here:
>>
>> http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [Dng] trios already packaging openrc and removed libsystemd0

[Richard]

Actually Dragan posted the link on 8-Jan-2015 in this list.

They are well along in removing systemd.
The image  was an easy install on my desktop at home.
But I've been away with only 2 AA1 netbooks and an S2.

Problem is most of their devs only speak Serbian.
Their development is somewhat, more open, but lang is an impediment;
although any post in English is answered intelligently.

Main site: https://foss.rs/
and forums: https://foss.rs/#trios-gnu-linux-distribution.192
and there is a News section and one English section in the forum.


On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Go Linux  wrote:

> On Tue, 2/17/15, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton  wrote:
>
>  Subject: [Dng] trios already packaging openrc and removed libsystemd0
>  To: dng@lists.dyne.org
>  Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2015, 11:49 AM
>
> > http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=119836
>
> > !!  did anyone have a clue that this has already been done?  i
> > didn't!! :)  why is this stuff so hard to find??
>
> 
>
> It's not at all hard to find.  This post was started last October:
>
> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=118319
>
> Ad the Trios link was posted on THIS list by DragonFOSS many months ago.
> ;)
>
> And also here:
>
> http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>
>
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Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 14 Feb 2015 21:36:00 +
Jaromil  wrote:

> 
> re all,
> 
> Here is a pre-alpha sneak preview of Devuan at the current state of
> affairs.

[snip]

> http://mirror.debianfork.org/devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!! This is very encouraging, and very
timely. It worked on my hardware-assisted VM processor running Wheezy
and Qemu, done with KatolaZ' 4 step instructions and Svante's
-enable-kvm suggestion. The Xfce front end worked very well, and was an
excellent choice. The fonts were perfect for a Qemu hosted app. It's a
great proof of concept.

I have a few suggestions for software that should be added to its
repository as soon as possible, in order to assist evaluators in their
troubleshooting and enhancement tasks:

* screen and tmux (hopefully with a pointer to a tmux cheat-sheet)
* Some sort of light weight graphical vim (vim-gtk?)
* Guake or Tilda fullscreen terminal

SteveT

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Re: [Dng] trios already packaging openrc and removed libsystemd0

[Go Linux]

On Tue, 2/17/15, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton  wrote:

 Subject: [Dng] trios already packaging openrc and removed libsystemd0
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2015, 11:49 AM
 
> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=119836
 
> !!  did anyone have a clue that this has already been done?  i
> didn't!! :)  why is this stuff so hard to find??
 


It's not at all hard to find.  This post was started last October:

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=118319

Ad the Trios link was posted on THIS list by DragonFOSS many months ago.  ;)

And also here:

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page


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[Dng] trios already packaging openrc and removed libsystemd0

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=119836

!!  did anyone have a clue that this has already been done?  i
didn't!! :)  why is this stuff so hard to find??

l.
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Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 81

[David Harrison]

There's a counter-argument that, while being read and digested, the 
instructions occupy a significant part of the human brain, which weighs 
in at ~1.5kg, the gold price for which weight is currently around USD 
58,000. Then again this attention is temporary so the worth will be too. 
Next up, how many angels can dance on the head of a semiconductor...


On 17/02/2015 17:02, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote:

the instructions dont actually weigh anything so saying it's worth it's
weight in gold is saying they aren't worth anything.;)

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Re: [Dng] The value of good docs: was pre-alpha-valentine on qemu

[Didier Kryn]

  
  
    Was probably based on deprecated printed-doc time philosophy ;-)

    Didier

Le 17/02/2015 17:57, Gravis a écrit :

  > A
  document that makes installation and use trivial, and makes it
> simple, is
worth its weight in gold.

  
the instructions
dont actually weigh anything so saying it's worth it's
weight in gold is saying they aren't worth anything. ;)
  
  

  --Gravis


On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Steve
  Litt 
  wrote:
  On Sun, 15
Feb 2015 02:52:12 +
KatolaZ 
wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> a few simple steps to have Devuan-pre-alpha-valentine
installed and
> running on qemu:
>
> 0)# wget
> "http://mirror.debianfork.org/devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso"
>
> 1)$ apt-get install qemu-kvm
>
> 2)$ qemu-img create devuan_disk 5G
>     (creates a 5G qemu disk image for devuan)
>
> 3)$ qemu-system-x86_64 -cdrom
> devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso -hda
devuan_disk -boot
> d -net nic -net user -m 256 -localtime & (installs
Devuan on the qemu
> disk image)
>
> 4)$ qemu-system-x86_64  -hda devuan_disk -boot c -net
nic -net user
> -m 256 -localtime & (boots the system)
>
> Just two words: IT WORKS :)

No way did I have time to install the pre-alpha Valentine,
and that
fact distressed me because I was one of those asking for a
quick
release as a confidence builder. But I just didn't have the
time.

Then KatolaZ exactly documented the four steps to
installation, and I
said "I can do that in my sleep, while doing other work!" So
I did it,
and it worked (although slowly because -enable-kvm wasn't in
the
commands). KatolaZ' four step document.

A document that makes installation and use trivial, and
makes it
simple, is worth its weight in gold. Thanks KatolaZ.

SteveT

Steve Litt                *  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

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Re: [Dng] The value of good docs: was pre-alpha-valentine on qemu

[Gravis]

> A document that makes installation and use trivial, and makes it
> simple, is worth its weight in gold.

the instructions dont actually weigh anything so saying it's worth it's
weight in gold is saying they aren't worth anything. ;)

--Gravis

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Steve Litt 
wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 02:52:12 +
> KatolaZ  wrote:
>
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > a few simple steps to have Devuan-pre-alpha-valentine installed and
> > running on qemu:
> >
> > 0)# wget
> > "
> http://mirror.debianfork.org/devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso
> "
> >
> > 1)$ apt-get install qemu-kvm
> >
> > 2)$ qemu-img create devuan_disk 5G
> > (creates a 5G qemu disk image for devuan)
> >
> > 3)$ qemu-system-x86_64 -cdrom
> > devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso -hda devuan_disk -boot
> > d -net nic -net user -m 256 -localtime & (installs Devuan on the qemu
> > disk image)
> >
> > 4)$ qemu-system-x86_64  -hda devuan_disk -boot c -net nic -net user
> > -m 256 -localtime & (boots the system)
> >
> > Just two words: IT WORKS :)
>
> No way did I have time to install the pre-alpha Valentine, and that
> fact distressed me because I was one of those asking for a quick
> release as a confidence builder. But I just didn't have the time.
>
> Then KatolaZ exactly documented the four steps to installation, and I
> said "I can do that in my sleep, while doing other work!" So I did it,
> and it worked (although slowly because -enable-kvm wasn't in the
> commands). KatolaZ' four step document.
>
> A document that makes installation and use trivial, and makes it
> simple, is worth its weight in gold. Thanks KatolaZ.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
> Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance
>
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[Dng] The value of good docs: was pre-alpha-valentine on qemu

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 02:52:12 +
KatolaZ  wrote:

> Hi guys,
> 
> a few simple steps to have Devuan-pre-alpha-valentine installed and
> running on qemu:
> 
> 0)# wget
> "http://mirror.debianfork.org/devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso";
> 
> 1)$ apt-get install qemu-kvm 
> 
> 2)$ qemu-img create devuan_disk 5G 
> (creates a 5G qemu disk image for devuan)
> 
> 3)$ qemu-system-x86_64 -cdrom
> devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso -hda devuan_disk -boot
> d -net nic -net user -m 256 -localtime & (installs Devuan on the qemu
> disk image)
> 
> 4)$ qemu-system-x86_64  -hda devuan_disk -boot c -net nic -net user
> -m 256 -localtime & (boots the system)
> 
> Just two words: IT WORKS :)

No way did I have time to install the pre-alpha Valentine, and that
fact distressed me because I was one of those asking for a quick
release as a confidence builder. But I just didn't have the time.

Then KatolaZ exactly documented the four steps to installation, and I
said "I can do that in my sleep, while doing other work!" So I did it,
and it worked (although slowly because -enable-kvm wasn't in the
commands). KatolaZ' four step document.

A document that makes installation and use trivial, and makes it
simple, is worth its weight in gold. Thanks KatolaZ.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

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Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:19:27AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:32:28 -0500
> Hendrik Boom  wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 06:41:06PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:36:19 -0600
> > > Vince Mulhollon  wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > There shouldn't be any "tweaking" for a desktop.  This whole bad
> > > > idea comes from marketing at Microsoft
> > > 
> > > Whoaaa, wait a minute. Another word for "tweaking" is "choice",
> > > kind of like the reason we revolted and overthrew Debian.
> > 
> > I don't think he was talking about choosing and adjusting the desktop 
> > to suit you.  I think he was talking about changing the underlying 
> > infrastructure so it inexorably leads the way to a desktop, making 
> > other desktops difficult, and making traaditional nondesktop awkward.
> 
> You mean the new meme of having Gnome control Linux? If that's what he
> meant, I'm with him 100%.

A bit more aggressive a statement, but yes, that's an example.

-- hendrik
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Re: [Dng] pre-alpha-valentine on qemu

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 18:46:16 -0500
Steve Litt  wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:41:52 +0100
> Svante Signell  wrote:

> > Hi, it is a little slow without hardware acceleration: -enable-kvm
> > is the solution here if you have recent Intel/AMD CPUs. 
> 
> Oh, *that's* why it was so slow. Cool, let me try it again, using
> -enable-kvm. Thank you Svante!

Adding -enable-kvm made my Valentines Devuan snappy and speedy.

Thank you!

SteveT

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Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:32:28 -0500
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 06:41:06PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:36:19 -0600
> > Vince Mulhollon  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > There shouldn't be any "tweaking" for a desktop.  This whole bad
> > > idea comes from marketing at Microsoft
> > 
> > Whoaaa, wait a minute. Another word for "tweaking" is "choice",
> > kind of like the reason we revolted and overthrew Debian.
> 
> I don't think he was talking about choosing and adjusting the desktop 
> to suit you.  I think he was talking about changing the underlying 
> infrastructure so it inexorably leads the way to a desktop, making 
> other desktops difficult, and making traaditional nondesktop awkward.

You mean the new meme of having Gnome control Linux? If that's what he
meant, I'm with him 100%.

SteveT

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Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:15:14PM -0500, Peter Olson wrote:
> > On February 16, 2015 at 8:25 PM Hendrik Boom  wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 07:34:57PM -0500, Peter Olson wrote:
> 
> > > “Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”
> > > ― Edmund Burke
> > > 
> > > Peter Olson
> >   I think the original quote was by Santayana:
> > 
> > George Santayana. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to
> > repeat it. George Santayana (16 December 1863 in Madrid, Spain – 26
> > September 1952 in Rome, Italy) was a philosopher, essayist, poet and
> > novelist.
> > 
> > -- hendri
> 
> I'll see your January 12, 1729 (Burke, his birthday) against your 16 December
> 1863 (Santanayo) and claim that this is a timeless issue.
> 
> It has always been this way.
> 
> But the consequences of getting it wrong have increased.
> 
> Peter Olson
> 
> P.S.: I picked Edmund Burke because he was the oldest guy I found.  Many, many
> others say the same thing.  Newton said he stood on shoulders of giants. Let's
> not stand on their ankles.

Interesting.  Thanks.

-- hendrik

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Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)

[Stefan Ott]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 02/15/2015 08:50 AM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> Doesn't Enlightenment have a display manager, and isn't systemd
> optional for Enlightenment? -Jonathan

I've been using "slim" for logging in (on Gentoo / FreeBSD ever since
my escape from Debian) and it doesn't need systemd. Is there a
particular reason why lightdm would be preferred or is it just about
personal preferences?

- -- 
Stefan Ott
http://www.ott.net/
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Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience

[Didier Kryn]

Le 17/02/2015 01:23, Isaac Dunham a écrit :

But shell scripts can be written well, and writing a shell script to 
solve a problem beats writing a custom config to handle how one tool 
does it, and then not being able to apply that to another platform... 
or an older version of the same distro. And so I would rather use 
something that *expects* shell scripts than something that tolerates 
them for "backwards compatability". And I'm certainly not interested 
in using a custom config because RedHat's employees can't understand 
how to write fast shell scripts. Why should I expect them to write 
efficient and safe C if they can't manage efficient and safe sh? "The 
price of reliability is the pursuit of the utmost simplicity." Thanks, 
Isaac Dunham 


Isaac, you already wrote that in another ML, and I agree with you 
so much that I now explicitely use this method: have as many 
command-line switches as necessary in the application and invoke it 
through a shell script which sets them all. Everybody reading the script 
understands what it is doing. It's more user-friendly than using a 
different configuration proto-language for every new application.


Didier

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