Re: [Dng] Everyone's favorite DE: GNOME3
Le 29/05/2015 01:45, Neo Futur a écrit : I dont really want to troll, but I have to say I m not included in this "everyone" and the trinity, the kde3 fork, is great at many levels, and systemd-free, and is my favorite DE Also not a member of "everyone". I allways found Gnome ugly and user-unfriendly. I was never able to get anything out of Gnome Shell and, for some time, since KDE had regressed -- they had removed the possibility to edit submenus, I fell down to Gnome classic, until I switched to Xfce. I will probably never go back to Gnome or KDE. Everyone is counted in Debian's poll because Gnome is brought in by the installer. They probably don't count you down when you remove the packages. Nevertheless, it is a great job to have desinfected it and made it available to Devuan. Congratulations Jaret. In addition, it demonstrates that the argument that systemd was required by Gnome was just a lie. It will make the Devuan project even more convincing. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Everyone's favorite DE: GNOME3
Am Freitag, 29. Mai 2015 schrieb Didier Kryn: > > Le 29/05/2015 01:45, Neo Futur a écrit : > > I dont really want to troll, but I have to say I m not included in > > this "everyone" and the trinity, the kde3 fork, is great at many > > levels, and systemd-free, and is my favorite DE > > > > Also not a member of "everyone". I allways found Gnome ugly and > user-unfriendly. I was never able to get anything out of Gnome Shell > and, for some time, since KDE had regressed -- they had removed the > possibility to edit submenus, I fell down to Gnome classic, until I > switched to Xfce. I will probably never go back to Gnome or KDE. > Everyone is counted in Debian's poll because Gnome is brought in by the > installer. They probably don't count you down when you remove the packages. > > Nevertheless, it is a great job to have desinfected it and made it > available to Devuan. Congratulations Jaret. In addition, it demonstrates > that the argument that systemd was required by Gnome was just a lie. It > will make the Devuan project even more convincing. > > Didier Neither "everyone" here, I'm on TDE (on wheezy) and FVWM (on FreeBSD) ... Nice that Gnome works without systemd, but I don't use any Gnome application. Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 8, Issue 82
On 29/05/2015 12:59, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: If anything, I think it validates the case for a system like shui. The fact that different applications in different problem domains independently gain built-in support for scripting suggests that there's a naturally-occurring need to be able to interact with applications programmatically as well as interactively. So, why not design applications with this need in mind from the get-go? I'd love to see a decent scripting capability overlaid on a Linux PDF reader/editor -- by "decent" I mean with the ability to remediate tagging, readings orders and so on for accessibility... Oh, and to convert RGB object colours into press-ready CMYK after the fact... My 2 cents in the wishing well. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Everyone's favorite DE: GNOME3
On 29/05/2015 12:59, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: Haven't tried yet, but I can! I actually haven't got a chance to do much Cinnaminnamon yet at all since it was still in Debian testing and largely unfit for public consumption last time it was on my mind. I suspect it will just be more config changes like gnome, for the most part. My interest in Gnome, as a user, would lie in the components that still underlie Cinnamon. Try a Mint 17.1 VM and you'll see Cinnamon is fairly polished now. Plonk Cinnamon on top of Devuan and you'd be halfway to a Mint substitute, when they inevitably follow Ubuntu's slide down the systemd mud-chute. Xfce/Whisker achieves much the same as Cinnamon for my purposes and it's less of a resource hog. My themeing tastes are simple and satisfied by either DE. However given a fast system it's enjoyable to use the extra bells and whistles! Purely personal opinion, not speaking for anyone else here. Dave H ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Everyone's favorite DE: GNOME3
Jaret Cantu escribió: [...] I am happy to report that (most of) the GNOME3 Desktop Environment has been made to work systemd-free, in all its spiffy, OpenGL-y goodness! [...] Thanks for these wonderful and productive work. er Envite binubbeUCqS68.bin Description: Clave PGP pública ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Everyone's favorite DE: GNOME3
On Fri, 29 May 2015 11:40:12 +0200 Didier Kryn wrote: > > Le 29/05/2015 01:45, Neo Futur a écrit : > > I dont really want to troll, but I have to say I m not included in > > this "everyone" and the trinity, the kde3 fork, is great at many > > levels, and systemd-free, and is my favorite DE > > > > Also not a member of "everyone". Me too. When Gnome 3 came out, I went elsewhere. But... [clip] > Nevertheless, it is a great job to have desinfected it and made > it available to Devuan. Congratulations Jaret. In addition, it > demonstrates that the argument that systemd was required by Gnome was > just a lie. It will make the Devuan project even more convincing. In fact, having Gnome is one of the "Litmus tests" many people use in evaluating whether to go to a distro. If Devuan's Gnome really has no risk of "stealth systemd sneakback", then it's a wonderful asset for Devuan to have, and having it eliminates a big hunk of explanation that we would have had to make. And Jaret, we all know that depoetterizing Gnome wasn't easy. Daniel Robbins went all out to praise the Funtoo developer who depoetterized it for Funtoo. SteveT Steve Litt May 2015 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Everyone's favorite DE: GNOME3
Hi all, Ditto on not being a member of the "everyone" group and I appreciate the suggestions provided for a DE on this excellent thread. Also moved to WindowMaker when my desktop was wheezy and on last check it is still beautiful. Some guys have been coming up with a live cd:- http://wmlive.sourceforge.net/ Thanks, Yves - Original Message - From: "Steve Litt" To: Cc: Sent:Fri, 29 May 2015 10:21:06 -0400 Subject:Re: [Dng] Everyone's favorite DE: GNOME3 On Fri, 29 May 2015 11:40:12 +0200 Didier Kryn wrote: > > Le 29/05/2015 01:45, Neo Futur a écrit : > > I dont really want to troll, but I have to say I m not included in > > this "everyone" and the trinity, the kde3 fork, is great at many > > levels, and systemd-free, and is my favorite DE > > > > Also not a member of "everyone". Me too. When Gnome 3 came out, I went elsewhere. But... [clip] > Nevertheless, it is a great job to have desinfected it and made > it available to Devuan. Congratulations Jaret. In addition, it > demonstrates that the argument that systemd was required by Gnome was > just a lie. It will make the Devuan project even more convincing. In fact, having Gnome is one of the "Litmus tests" many people use in evaluating whether to go to a distro. If Devuan's Gnome really has no risk of "stealth systemd sneakback", then it's a wonderful asset for Devuan to have, and having it eliminates a big hunk of explanation that we would have had to make. And Jaret, we all know that depoetterizing Gnome wasn't easy. Daniel Robbins went all out to praise the Funtoo developer who depoetterized it for Funtoo. SteveT Steve Litt May 2015 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] OT: separate GUI from commands
On 05/28/2015 11:58 PM, Jude Nelson wrote: Hi Jonathan, Shell-based command access to software like Powerpoint would indeed be great. But I wonder if we can raise the bar a bit and consider an approach that could serve the largest audience. Especially users who themselves aren't developers or programmers. It seems to me such a system must be characterized by the following two properties: * basic - the language itself should be simple enough that the user doesn't have to spend too much time on boilerplate and learning eccentricities of the language. (And the environment should be able to generate as much of the boilerplate on its own, especially for common patterns.) What language would you propose? If I create shui, I'd make it language-agnostic so users can select whatever language(s) they want. My example with shell scripts was just to illustrate the possibility :) * visual - we know the user is already interacting with a graphical system. So it makes sense that the command-based system should include graphical modes of interaction and visualize as much as it can. (For example, letting the user choose from a set of familiar widgets rather than making them memorize a baroque naming system.) It should look as familiar as it can without sacrificing power, letting the user see as much of the data flow without having to create the entire mental model on their own. Yeah, a RAD tool would be a natural extension of the idea! Just imagine the possibilities if Powerpoint gave you access to an environment like that! It didn't occur to me when I wrote my original email, but it turns out Powerpoint can be scripted with VBA. So can Libreoffice (it supports Javascript and Python as well as Libreoffice Basic). There are others, like Blender, GIMP, KDE (i.e. SuperKaramba, Plasma, Kross), GNOME 3, the NetBSD kernel (Lua), the Linux kernel (ePBF), and so on, that I had forgotten to list. Yes I know, I was trolling. But it was a friendly troll. See, I included a hash at the end of my email. Here is my Proof-of-Troll(tm) that matches that hash: echo "Sorry but I couldn't resist trolling you here. :) Still intrigued by your file-system based widget idea, though." | sha256sum In retrospect I should have been more detailed that the troll was playing dumb about Visual Basic, but if you switch the order of my two categories you can see the strong evidence. :) If anything, I think it validates the case for a system like shui. The fact that different applications in different problem domains independently gain built-in support for scripting suggests that there's a naturally-occurring need to be able to interact with applications programmatically as well as interactively. So, why not design applications with this need in mind from the get-go? I think because you would need to have all the applications use the same language. For example, if I use the 'lg' console in Gnome Shell (which is essentially just a poor man's HTML5 devtools) I can get access to javascript objects that represent the various elements of the DE. But when I say 'element' I only mean the x11 windows and the pre-fabbed Gnome widgets and stuff. For example, I can't inspect the "Save" button in Thunderbird and change its attribute "display" to "none". That makes 'lg' so limited that I can safely say I've never used it in all the time I've used Gnome. I use the devtools in Chrome and Firefox all the time, however. I do this because most of the time I can inspect every element that makes up the web page or app I happen to be viewing. (I can also get FPS, profile, and all kinds of other invaluable instant feedback.) Exceptions are of course webgl and HTML5 canvas (because those contents are just pixels), but I don't run into those so often in my normal browsing. This is already slow with all apps on the web (well, most) using the same language (and being optimized on the fly on modern browsers). Seems like for this to be workable on the desktop you'd need wrappers for various languages which would add even more overhead. But it's quite possible I've misunderstood the upshot of the system you're describing. -Jonathan -Jude PS Not sure why, but your email hit my (Gmail's) spam filter. Just thought you should know :) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Everyone's favorite seasoning: Cinnamon (Re: Everyone's favorite DE: GNOME3)
Just did a systemd-free build of Cinnaminnaminnamon this morning and... Shutdown instead Logs Out. Like, not even a modal to pop up with grayed-out buttons like a misconfigured XFCE: it just logs you out. It looks like instead of the normal DE systemd-or-ConsoleKit choice, Cinnaminnaminnaminnaminnamon has systemd-or-Old-UPower-and-thus-ConsoleKit. So, the combination of no systemd and a new UPower leaves it inside of a power-management vacuum. My suspicion is that "old UPower" can be "any UPower", but a-patchin' will have to be done (or maybe an OpenBSD patch raid?) I've uploaded the three scrubbed packages to the Devuan GitLab gnome group; there are some gnome3 dependencies that it uses, although since I already had them installed on my system, I'm not quite sure which ones. I'll put the prebuilt packages on my mirror once I figure out that shutdown thing. And I'll have to figure it out now or else lose sleep obsessing over it. I must say, Cinna[REDACTED]mon seems pretty snappy -- although maybe that is just an illusion caused by how much new windows grow in size? Cheers, Jaret Cantu On 05/29/2015 09:03 AM, David Harrison wrote: On 29/05/2015 12:59, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: Haven't tried yet, but I can! I actually haven't got a chance to do much Cinnaminnamon yet at all since it was still in Debian testing and largely unfit for public consumption last time it was on my mind. I suspect it will just be more config changes like gnome, for the most part. My interest in Gnome, as a user, would lie in the components that still underlie Cinnamon. Try a Mint 17.1 VM and you'll see Cinnamon is fairly polished now. Plonk Cinnamon on top of Devuan and you'd be halfway to a Mint substitute, when they inevitably follow Ubuntu's slide down the systemd mud-chute. Xfce/Whisker achieves much the same as Cinnamon for my purposes and it's less of a resource hog. My themeing tastes are simple and satisfied by either DE. However given a fast system it's enjoyable to use the extra bells and whistles! Purely personal opinion, not speaking for anyone else here. Dave H ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
