Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
Le 05/06/2015 07:50, Isaac Dunham a écrit : From a legal point of view, I would also carefully refrain from redistributing any non-free firmware in Devuan, the main reason being that usually you*don't* have the right to redistribute it, and even if you have got this right from the HW constructor, such right can be withdrawn any moment at their own will, which might be a quite unpleasent surprise for Devuan... There is a*very* large set of non-free firmware for which at least your first claim is false, and for much of it the second is false as well. I've actually read several of the licenses in firmware-linux-nonfree. b43 is/was a notable exception, getting it the b43-fwcutter package... which leads me to mention something else: The criteria for something getting into debian non-free require your claims to be false for that package, if it isn't a downloader or installer. I think one could always make the following argument: I have paid for a device which cannot work without the firmware; therefore what I paid for is a set which includes hardware and firmware. Sorry but when I buy a car, it is a package which includes the key; otherwise I wouldn't buy it. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
I think this might be the best option... Have firmware only for networking devices and scsi/sata/ide controllers on the net installation disk. At least let the system support vectors be 100% or as close to 100% compatible as possible. If it is needed post-install the have it offered. Why? Devuan needs to be far reaching to as many systems as possible. Why? Nobody wants to download a distribution only to find their hardware isn't supported... PERIOD! Devuan must reach the masses. Period. Devuan must show it not only is a friendly system, but is a system that is able to support it's community. This isn't about free versus non-free. Those days are long past gone. The less a distribution supports, the more it falls away into a niche. Niche distributions do not go places or make bold statements. Devuan must be able to stand against Debian toe to toe, as well as Arch, Slackware, Gentoo, Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. Firmware that makes a system usable is and should always be welcomed. The more you limit, the less users you have. What the user does to their system after installation shouldn't be a concern. What should be a concern, how many users can we win over. If this was a true war, would you fight to win one battle, or fight to win a whole war even if it cost a battle or two? Just food for thought. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Didier Krynmailto:k...@in2p3.fr Sent: 6/5/2015 1:55 AM To: dng@lists.dyne.orgmailto:dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers Le 05/06/2015 07:50, Isaac Dunham a écrit : From a legal point of view, I would also carefully refrain from redistributing any non-free firmware in Devuan, the main reason being that usually you*don't* have the right to redistribute it, and even if you have got this right from the HW constructor, such right can be withdrawn any moment at their own will, which might be a quite unpleasent surprise for Devuan... There is a*very* large set of non-free firmware for which at least your first claim is false, and for much of it the second is false as well. I've actually read several of the licenses in firmware-linux-nonfree. b43 is/was a notable exception, getting it the b43-fwcutter package... which leads me to mention something else: The criteria for something getting into debian non-free require your claims to be false for that package, if it isn't a downloader or installer. I think one could always make the following argument: I have paid for a device which cannot work without the firmware; therefore what I paid for is a set which includes hardware and firmware. Sorry but when I buy a car, it is a package which includes the key; otherwise I wouldn't buy it. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Need some advice to compile consolekit2 for amd64
I am trying to compile ConsoleKit2 source for amd64 but I am getting this error: dpkg-checkbuilddeps: Unmet build dependencies: libdbus-glib-1-dev (= 0.30) libudev-dev libx11-dev (= 1.0.0) xmlto libpolkit-gobject-1-dev (= 0.92) Is it safe to install these files on a Devuan system? I want to avoid all parts of systemd if possible. If source modification is still necessary to port consolekit2 to Devuan not to use any of systemd parts, please inform me. Thanks. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Need some advice to compile consolekit2 for amd64
Polkit, Eudev, and dbus should be okay to install. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Edward Bartolomailto:edb...@gmail.com Sent: 6/4/2015 11:49 PM To: dngmailto:dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: [Dng] Need some advice to compile consolekit2 for amd64 I am trying to compile ConsoleKit2 source for amd64 but I am getting this error: dpkg-checkbuilddeps: Unmet build dependencies: libdbus-glib-1-dev (= 0.30) libudev-dev libx11-dev (= 1.0.0) xmlto libpolkit-gobject-1-dev (= 0.92) Is it safe to install these files on a Devuan system? I want to avoid all parts of systemd if possible. If source modification is still necessary to port consolekit2 to Devuan not to use any of systemd parts, please inform me. Thanks. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers (James Powell) --- form Re: Dng Digest, Vol 9, Issue 23
Hi all, I break my silence again for my two cents. I think we have a very good design in offering non-free firmware that is essential to complete the installation of the distribution, and ensuring that the end-user knows and explicitly consents. Offering two installation media distinguished in free and non-free version looks also a good move as we further stress that we strive for open-nes and maintainability whenever it is possible. Assuming no technical issues or man-power shortage gets in between, this is a tradeoff (IMHO the best one, currently) between two conflicting needs - aiming at open-ness and freedom (as a tool, at least, to ensure maintainability and reliability) - aiming at helping the large audience (majority...) of people who cannot afford to _only_ choose proprietary blob-free hardware. I would cast my vote there; and opt for providing non-free (but freely redistributable) blobs that are essential for successful installation in the non-free version of the installer (there can be fallback options ofc for uncommon HW and experienced users). That likely boils down to support for mainstream networking and storage devices, as previously commented, or maybe some specific CPUs, if really mandatory. This can be done thanks to the efforts of a few dedicated people, which I wish to thank again. From: James Powell james4...@hotmail.com This isn't about free versus non-free. Those days are long past gone. The less a distribution supports, the more it falls away into a niche. Niche distributions do not go places or make bold statements. Devuan must be able to stand against Debian toe to toe, as well as Arch, Slackware, Gentoo, Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. Firmware that makes a system usable is and should always be welcomed. The more you limit, the less users you have. What the user does to their system after installation shouldn't be a concern. What should be a concern, how many users can we win over. I do not agree here; I will not challenge the points specifically, not to derail the thread, but if we were aiming for large markets more than _anything_ else there would be no Devuan at all (as stated before, free is often a prerequisite of maintainable). Not willing to bash James either: I agree on several other views he states; but I don't want to see Devuan struggle with too many binary blobs to the point of diminishing returns. IMHO Devuan should aim for streamlined desing (KISS) and only support firwmare that is _both_ essential to install on some non esoteric HW _and_ practical to support in the installer media and in the running system. Cheers Massimo -- ^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ massimo.copp...@isti.cnr.it copp...@di.unipi.it www.di.unipi.it/~coppola Massimo Coppola - Tel: +39 (050) 3152992 - CNR mobile +39 348 3962622 CNR/ISTI A.Faedo, via G. Moruzzi 1 - 56124 Pisa, ItalyRoom C33 - - - - - - - - - - Eternity is a mere moment, just long enough for a joke.(H. Hesse) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 01:13:51 +0100 KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote: Maybe I am the only one unable to see the problem in asking the owner of hardware which requires some essential non-free firmware during installation to put the required firmware on a USB stick during the first boot. If the user has got a way to burn a net-install cd, then he almost surely has no problem into plugging a USB stick on that other computer and copying one file therein You very well might be the only one unable to see the problem, because it *could* be a big problem. The put the firmware on the USB stick solution works if and only if all of: * The user is made exquisitely aware of the need and the process before installation (requires the right documentation) * The user is told, by the install program, whenever he will need the firmware on stick * The user is told precisely what files to put on the stick, what directories, and how the stick must be formatted (documentation) * The user can be walked through the process of copying the files from the stick to where they belong. This might sound easy, but remember the user is running an install CD at this point, and might not even know what to do with Ctrl+Alt+F2, and a lot of install CD environments don't have a full complement of commands. * The user is told exactly how to figure out the make, model and version of his problematic hardware, which firmware(s) this corresponds to, and exactly how to get that firmware onto his memstick. * All this documentation must be easily and intuitively available in the Install CD environment, because it's pretty much for sure the user isn't going to be able to surf the net during installation. In other words, yes it is a problem, unless our documentation is voluminous yet well organized, and easily and intuitively accessible during the install process. If it is otherwise, the user will just throw the Dng cd in the trash and install Ubuntu. Systemd encumbered Linux is still better than Windows. SteveT Steve Litt June 2015 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 02:41:05 -0700 James Powell james4...@hotmail.com wrote: I think this might be the best option... Have firmware only for networking devices and scsi/sata/ide controllers on the net installation disk. What about video? I've tried installing without a screen: It's problematic. SteveT Steve Litt June 2015 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 11:36:09 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: None of the preceding arguments change the fact that if installing Dng appears to be a poorly documented 40 step manual process, the person will throw Dng in the trash and use Ubuntu or Windows. Also, people who enjoy 40 step manual processes already have a wonderful distro: Arch :-) :s/Dng/Devuan/g SteveT Steve Litt June 2015 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
On Fri, Jun 05, 2015 at 11:36:09AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: None of the preceding arguments change the fact that if installing Dng appears to be a poorly documented 40 step manual process, the Well, if you have permission to distribute the non-free firmware for disc controllers or network cards then do so. I normally need the firmware for Broadcom network cards and don’t have problems copying it via USB stick. But it is still non-free firmware and so should be restricted to a bare minimum. Shade and sweet water! Stephan -- | Stephan Seitz E-Mail: s...@fsing.rootsland.net | | Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/keys.html | smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 16:54:54 +0200 Stephan Seitz stse+dev...@fsing.rootsland.net wrote: On Fri, Jun 05, 2015 at 10:55:37AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: I think one could always make the following argument: I have paid for a device which cannot work without the firmware; therefore what I paid for is a set which includes hardware and firmware. Sorry but when I am not sure if this argument works. You have paid for a device with drivers for the operating systems this vendor supports. I don’t think you have any rights to claim the firmware or technical specifications to develop drivers for other operating systems. I buy a car, it is a package which includes the key; otherwise I wouldn't buy it. But the vendor gives you the car and the key. And you can only use the car on the roads the vendor has build the car for (at least if you want the car to survive some years ;-) like the computer vendor can tell you under which operating systems his device will work. None of the preceding arguments change the fact that if installing Dng appears to be a poorly documented 40 step manual process, the person will throw Dng in the trash and use Ubuntu or Windows. Also, people who enjoy 40 step manual processes already have a wonderful distro: Arch :-) SteveT Steve Litt June 2015 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] How to official package compilation for a newbie
Hi all, I always been behind the scenes of this mailing list because I don't have the experience in how to do a distro that most of you have (I'm more active on other things related to devuan). Anyway, I just ended to de-systemd a group of packages on my laptop (erlang) because I need it for work: it's my first experiment in that sense, so if someone more expert than me woult take care of this package in the official repository, I'm happy to give him all the steps that I did; if there isn't a volounteer, but someone (Nextime or Jaromill) could give me some information to make the things in the correct way, I'm happy to maintain this group of packages now and in the future. Thank you, Alberto ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Need some advice to compile consolekit2 for amd64
On 05/06/15 07:49, Edward Bartolo wrote: I am trying to compile ConsoleKit2 source for amd64 but I am getting this error: dpkg-checkbuilddeps: Unmet build dependencies: libdbus-glib-1-dev (= 0.30) libudev-dev libx11-dev (= 1.0.0) xmlto libpolkit-gobject-1-dev (= 0.92) Is it safe to install these files on a Devuan system? I want to avoid all parts of systemd if possible. If source modification is still necessary to port consolekit2 to Devuan not to use any of systemd parts, please inform me. Thanks. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng I posted here http://www.exegnulinux.net/nosystemd/pool/main/c/consolekit/ working (at least for me) i386 debs with sources. No amd64 debs at the moment however you could compile yourself from the sources. The control file debian.tar.xz lists the build deps. No *systemd* deps. It will need also policykit-1 from Devuan or angband.pl .. D ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Puppy Linux, Devuan Puppy hardware - Re: straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
I already posted a little about Puppy Linux in the past - but, it seems appropriate and particularly on topic to mention it again now, because, at least from my not-very-technical perspective, one of Puppy Linux's strengths appears to be compatibility with a wide variety of hardware, usually without requiring the users to fiddle with settings much or at all. With Puppy, the most elaborate thing I ever had to do to make some hardware work was compile and install a driver for a USB wireless internet adapter. (Oh, and then there were the things I was only able to figure out how to use with a Windows XP VirtualBox rather than natively in Linux - a scanner and an HPNA internet adapter.) Puppy (at least the Puppies I tried) unfortunately doesn't tell you if it's using anything non-free, nor give you the option to exclude those non-free things. But, other than that, it has usually been close to ideal for me. I haven't tried it with an incredibly wide variety of hardware, but it has usually worked fine with most things I tried, even some rather surprising things, like old Macs. :-) Maybe Puppy has some hardware-related scripts or something which Devuan could use or modify? I don't know many details, but there is apparently already Devuan support in woof-CE, the community edition of the software used to build Puppy Linuxes. This page is from last April: https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/528 I don't know if anyone has yet released a Devuan-based Puppy ISO. But, if I understand correctly, woof-CE is the software anyone can now use to build such an ISO. Maybe stuff from that could be used in Devuan itself? As for how Puppy deals with legal issues related to distributing non-free firmware - I haven't been able to find many details so far just from searching the web. But, on the blog of Barry Kauler (creator of Puppy Linux), there's a post from May 17, 2008 where he writes: http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=00099 Anyway, I now have compiled 'slusb.ko' but apparently I can't legally put it into Puppy for distribution. I have mumbled some appropriate expletives, won't type them here. So, judging by that, I assume Puppy probably is mindful of such issues and probably follows the law, yet still manages to do a good job of being compatible with a wide variety of hardware. One of my top suggestions for a specific, existing Puppy distro to look at and maybe use stuff from would be Wary Puppy, since it's specifically designed to be compatible with old hardware. http://distro.ibiblio.org/quirky/wary-5.5/release-Wary-5.5.htm Wary is the Puppy that worked best for me on an old computer that even some somewhat recent Puppies didn't work quite right on - a Toughbook CF-28 whose screen blacked out after X started while running Lucid Puppy 5.2.8 and Slacko 5.7. If I recall correctly, the worst problem I had with the CF-28 and Wary was that the CF-28's touchscreen wasn't properly calibrated out of the box (and I never figured out how to calibrate it). My other top suggestion would be Lighthouse 64 Puppy 6.02 Beta 2, my favorite of all the 64-bit Puppies I've tried. http://www.lhpup.org/ - Lighthouse 64 Puppy's home page I was astonished when I was able to get Puppy to work on some old Macs, with very little trouble at all (if I recall correctly) - just by booting from a CD or DVD. I actually was able to use Lighthouse 64 Puppy 6.02 Beta 2 on a 2008 Mac Pro desktop! A model of Mac that some describe as being like a giant cheese grater. :-) http://www.souledesigns.com/blog/2013/06/mac-pro-kitchen-nightmare And I got both Lucid Puppy 5.2.8 and I think also a Lighthouse Puppy (forgot what version) to boot on a MacBook from 2009. http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=70855 Official discussion thread for Lucid Puppy 5.2.8 Another nice thing about Lighthouse 64 Puppy 6.02 Beta 2 is that right out of the box, it somehow manages to perfectly calibrate the touchscreen of my Toughbook CF-C1 (a newer and far less rugged Toughbook than the CF-28). No other Puppy I tried did that, though at least the touchscreen somewhat worked, even though I couldn't figure out how to calibrate it. (Actually, I might only have tried one other Puppy with the CF-C1 - Lucid Puppy 5.2.8.) Anyway, I hope this helps. I guess I'll go back to being mostly quiet again, since I can't think of much else to say besides praise, thanks, and things like I agree. :-) Thanks to everyone for all your wonderful efforts! Best wishes, Apollia ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Puppy Linux, Devuan Puppy hardware - Re: straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
From my limited knowledge on licensing agreements, I think as long as there are no restrictions on redistribution from the original people who provide the firmware, it can be freely redistributed as long as the firmware isn't decompiled or disassembled. I don't know, off hand, of any manufacturers that have any firmware limitations in licenses other than disassembly and decompiling. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Apolliamailto:apollia...@gmail.com Sent: 6/5/2015 4:07 PM To: dng@lists.dyne.orgmailto:dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: [Dng] Puppy Linux, Devuan Puppy hardware - Re: straw poll, non-free firmware for installers I already posted a little about Puppy Linux in the past - but, it seems appropriate and particularly on topic to mention it again now, because, at least from my not-very-technical perspective, one of Puppy Linux's strengths appears to be compatibility with a wide variety of hardware, usually without requiring the users to fiddle with settings much or at all. With Puppy, the most elaborate thing I ever had to do to make some hardware work was compile and install a driver for a USB wireless internet adapter. (Oh, and then there were the things I was only able to figure out how to use with a Windows XP VirtualBox rather than natively in Linux - a scanner and an HPNA internet adapter.) Puppy (at least the Puppies I tried) unfortunately doesn't tell you if it's using anything non-free, nor give you the option to exclude those non-free things. But, other than that, it has usually been close to ideal for me. I haven't tried it with an incredibly wide variety of hardware, but it has usually worked fine with most things I tried, even some rather surprising things, like old Macs. :-) Maybe Puppy has some hardware-related scripts or something which Devuan could use or modify? I don't know many details, but there is apparently already Devuan support in woof-CE, the community edition of the software used to build Puppy Linuxes. This page is from last April: https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/528 I don't know if anyone has yet released a Devuan-based Puppy ISO. But, if I understand correctly, woof-CE is the software anyone can now use to build such an ISO. Maybe stuff from that could be used in Devuan itself? As for how Puppy deals with legal issues related to distributing non-free firmware - I haven't been able to find many details so far just from searching the web. But, on the blog of Barry Kauler (creator of Puppy Linux), there's a post from May 17, 2008 where he writes: http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=00099 Anyway, I now have compiled 'slusb.ko' but apparently I can't legally put it into Puppy for distribution. I have mumbled some appropriate expletives, won't type them here. So, judging by that, I assume Puppy probably is mindful of such issues and probably follows the law, yet still manages to do a good job of being compatible with a wide variety of hardware. One of my top suggestions for a specific, existing Puppy distro to look at and maybe use stuff from would be Wary Puppy, since it's specifically designed to be compatible with old hardware. http://distro.ibiblio.org/quirky/wary-5.5/release-Wary-5.5.htm Wary is the Puppy that worked best for me on an old computer that even some somewhat recent Puppies didn't work quite right on - a Toughbook CF-28 whose screen blacked out after X started while running Lucid Puppy 5.2.8 and Slacko 5.7. If I recall correctly, the worst problem I had with the CF-28 and Wary was that the CF-28's touchscreen wasn't properly calibrated out of the box (and I never figured out how to calibrate it). My other top suggestion would be Lighthouse 64 Puppy 6.02 Beta 2, my favorite of all the 64-bit Puppies I've tried. http://www.lhpup.org/ - Lighthouse 64 Puppy's home page I was astonished when I was able to get Puppy to work on some old Macs, with very little trouble at all (if I recall correctly) - just by booting from a CD or DVD. I actually was able to use Lighthouse 64 Puppy 6.02 Beta 2 on a 2008 Mac Pro desktop! A model of Mac that some describe as being like a giant cheese grater. :-) http://www.souledesigns.com/blog/2013/06/mac-pro-kitchen-nightmare And I got both Lucid Puppy 5.2.8 and I think also a Lighthouse Puppy (forgot what version) to boot on a MacBook from 2009. http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=70855 Official discussion thread for Lucid Puppy 5.2.8 Another nice thing about Lighthouse 64 Puppy 6.02 Beta 2 is that right out of the box, it somehow manages to perfectly calibrate the touchscreen of my Toughbook CF-C1 (a newer and far less rugged Toughbook than the CF-28). No other Puppy I tried did that, though at least the touchscreen somewhat worked, even though I couldn't figure out how to calibrate it. (Actually, I might only have tried one other Puppy with the CF-C1 - Lucid Puppy 5.2.8.) Anyway, I hope this helps. I guess I'll go back
