Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Hendrik. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 09:48:33 -0400 you wrote: My entire problem with mc is that it's too easy to type mc when I mean mv and instead of moving my file it gets me into a strange mode I have to figure out how to get out of. Pardon, but funny! :o) Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Klaus. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:02:55 +0100 you wrote: Even though mc is something good for beginners but debian or devuan is not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on veteran unix admins so vi(m) would be the only proper choice. :-D I do not agree. I also use Linux not the first decade, and all that time never used vi(m) and always used MC even in X-sessions. Especially it is of great worth when in single mode (when repairing OS): MC and MCedit. On other hand vim/nano -- are hard to use w/ its not usual keys binding and other stuff -- i do not remember of already for now. Whereas MCedit uses F-keys -- that people could get habit when they used DOS programs. -- Also, for every F-key there is a note below the screen -- so that w/ a single key press a function is called, and even a newbie can do basic and essential functions. So MC is the proper choice. Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Didier. On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 00:41:18 +0200 you wrote: If the gurus use vim and dislike nano, since they are gurus, they can change the default themselves and leave the ordinary people with a limited but usable editor. I think the reason is in the small images, that will be available after release. And suppose you have not Internet access w/ a machine you have to repair -- then the minimal iso contents may play its important role. As for me, i have being in such situations -- and it was terrible for me to use even nano, though w/o even that editor i had to use even ed ! -- Whereas it could be absolutely another deal, had i mc/mcedit on such disk. Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
I'm not agree with that. I begin with debian ( at school ) and nano default editor permit to focus learn how distro work and not how can write something. First impressions are very important when we start with new distro. The good solution is, for me, add in installer the choice of the default éditor. Le 19/07/2015 12:30, Ста Деюс a écrit : Good time of the day, Klaus. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:02:55 +0100 you wrote: Even though mc is something good for beginners but debian or devuan is not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on veteran unix admins so vi(m) would be the only proper choice. :-D I do not agree. I also use Linux not the first decade, and all that time never used vi(m) and always used MC even in X-sessions. Especially it is of great worth when in single mode (when repairing OS): MC and MCedit. On other hand vim/nano -- are hard to use w/ its not usual keys binding and other stuff -- i do not remember of already for now. Whereas MCedit uses F-keys -- that people could get habit when they used DOS programs. -- Also, for every F-key there is a note below the screen -- so that w/ a single key press a function is called, and even a newbie can do basic and essential functions. So MC is the proper choice. Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, John. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:34:57 +0200 you wrote: Gets my vote - lost without mc and the first thing I always install Me too. As we suppose Devuan to be for at least advanced users, many of whom may, as the first stage of install process, simply install the base of the system -- just to get into the new box -- from where they install/remove whatsoever they want. -- For such tasks it is good to a text-based file manager, and what adds score to it -- it even has a built-in editor -- the easiest i have found among the text-based. So, the choice seems to vivid regarding the package. Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Micky. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:00:24 +0200 you wrote: I thing mc is useless: Real men don't eat quique. Do not know what is quique, and i'm seems to me, not a real men, but the MC and it mceditor -- are a great software -- not only providing a must functionality on any distro, but even doing that very well and user-friendly. Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 05:36:56PM +0630, Ста Деюс wrote: Good time of the day, Didier. On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 20:20:27 +0200 you wrote: With nano, how to save and exit, etc is writen permanently on the 2 bottom lines. If you were to explain how to navigate, insert or erase text, save and exit with vi, the screen wouldn't be large enough. Complex editors are not suitable as fallback; this is true also for emacs. I think comfortability comes w/ the easy to use / common (well known beforetimes) keys -- for nano it is written at the bottom, it is true, but in a disaster and may nervous circumstances -- it is strains a lot -- to see every time i need, say, to save a file -- w/ its no need questions: are you sure? what's the name -- though file is opened and the name is well known. -- For copy/paste procedure, to mark the text for selection -- i even keep quite -- never got the procedures happen. On another hand, MCedit uses just F3 key and the cursor keys -- what can be easier to go to and fro -- for selecting?! If you know which key it is. -- One key for cope/move the text! One key for: point the place of insertion, saving file ! -- Again, what can be easier?! If you know which key it is. Is there an explanatory legend on-screen somewhere? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 04:37:55PM +0630, Ста Деюс wrote: Good time of the day, Hendrik. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 09:48:33 -0400 you wrote: My entire problem with mc is that it's too easy to type mc when I mean mv and instead of moving my file it gets me into a strange mode I have to figure out how to get out of. Pardon, but funny! :o) Funny, yes, but very true. I don't think they looked at keyboard distance between the various commands when they named them. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Le 19/07/2015 18:52, T.J. Duchene a écrit : Hi, everyone! =) With all this discussion about changes, I'd like to make sure that the UNIX guru/programmer is represented. I've mentioned this before, and I hate repetition - BUT - I feel it is important enough that it should be stated separately so that it is not overlooked. All this discussion about replacing defaults concerns me that someone might inadvertently break some standards that they are unfamiliar with. Yes, before anyone says anything, I already know that Linux does not entirely comply with POSIX standards, and deliberately breaks it in places. I just do not want to see any Linuxisms and breakage compounded further. Systemd everywhere is bad enough. When I say that, I am not saying that Systemd breaks POSIX. It technically doesn't. It does, however, break scripts on occasion; in spite of arguments by the systemd developers that does not. I'm hoping that Devuan does not make similar mistakes while moving in a different direction. I do not think anyone cares WHAT the default changed to is as long as Devuan has vi and other old school tools installed by default to comply with the POSIX standard. Thanks and have a wonderful day! T.J. Hey T.J. Not Linuxisms, GNUisms. Nano (and Emacs) belongs to GNU, and you know it: GNU's Not Unix! Do not forget we are talking of GNU/Linux. Trying to be POSIX-compliant, sure, but GNU nevertheless... a dilemma :-) Good day. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
I declare this topic a dead. Let's bury the remains without fanfare and get on with forking Debian and making Devuan the best universal linux distrobution ever. -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On July 19, 2015 6:52:28 PM CEST, T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, everyone! =) With all this discussion about changes, I'd like to make sure that the UNIX guru/programmer is represented. I've mentioned this before, and I hate repetition - BUT - I feel it is important enough that it should be stated separately so that it is not overlooked. All this discussion about replacing defaults concerns me that someone might inadvertently break some standards that they are unfamiliar with. Yes, before anyone says anything, I already know that Linux does not entirely comply with POSIX standards, and deliberately breaks it in places. I just do not want to see any Linuxisms and breakage compounded further. Systemd everywhere is bad enough. When I say that, I am not saying that Systemd breaks POSIX. It technically doesn't. It does, however, break scripts on occasion; in spite of arguments by the systemd developers that does not. I'm hoping that Devuan does not make similar mistakes while moving in a different direction. I do not think anyone cares WHAT the default changed to is as long as Devuan has vi and other old school tools installed by default to comply with the POSIX standard. Thanks and have a wonderful day! T.J. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng All changes are evaluated only if they will make devuan equally or more posix/unix compliant, not less. -- nextime ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Le 19/07/2015 19:40, T.J. Duchene a écrit : -Original Message- From: Dng [mailto:dng-boun...@lists.dyne.org] On Behalf Of Didier Kryn Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 12:01 PM To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes Hey T.J. Not Linuxisms, GNUisms. Nano (and Emacs) belongs to GNU, and you know it: GNU's Not Unix! Do not forget we are talking of GNU/Linux. Trying to be POSIX-compliant, sure, but GNU nevertheless... a dilemma :-) Good day. Didier [T.J. Duchene] LOL! =) You make a wonderful point, Didier. Quirks in GNU tools *are* a pain at times, I heartily agree. Still, what cannot be cured must be endured. I think if the FSF actually embarked on making sure their crapware (my personal phrase - no offense anyone) function even remotely close to BSD style (that everyone else outside of Linux uses), they would have to do a complete rewrite. Usually, you just install the GNU tools along with the ones the OS provides and hope for the best when trying to compile. But no, that really was not what I was concerned about. I'm not criticizing Devuan directly, but common standards really aren't the Linux way lately, and it is becoming rather tiresome, at least to me. This is not Devuan's fault, but as a whole, no one involved with Linux seems to care about cross-platform standards anymore. I really do not care of nano is the default editor. I've used it myself, along with joe, vi and an bunch of others over the years. I was just trying to make sure that if things are going to be replaced - as it is inevitable - that common standard remain intact as much as possible. Take care! T.J. You say crapware; I've also read bloatware. Everyone complains about GNU, including me, but I don't forget everyone is or should be immensely gratefull for the wonderful software they provide to the world, free and open. Think of gcc, glibc, emacs, latex... Seen from today, GNU is almost as old as Unix and I don't consider either of them is more entitled than the other to set the standard. I only have personnal preferences :-) Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
* On 2015 19 Jul 05:22 -0500, Ста Деюс wrote: Good time of the day, Micky. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:00:24 +0200 you wrote: I thing mc is useless: Real men don't eat quique. Do not know what is quique, and i'm seems to me, not a real men, but the MC and it mceditor -- are a great software -- not only providing a must functionality on any distro, but even doing that very well and user-friendly. I agree. I have been using mc since 1996 and mcedit since it was incorporated into mc--not sure how long. but a long time. It is the first package I install on a fresh system, however, I am not going to request that it be in the base installation as there is plenty there already and I have no problem with apt-get. I have also set mcedit to be the default editor for me on a few systems and it works well, if a bit quirky. It's syntax highlighting is better (IMHO) than just about anything else out there and I often use it just to browse source files, etc. BTW, I've never had quiche. - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 19/07/2015 20:07, Didier Kryn wrote: You say crapware; I've also read bloatware. Everyone complains about GNU, including me, but I don't forget everyone is or should be immensely gratefull for the wonderful software they provide to the world, free and open. Think of gcc, glibc, emacs, latex... GNU is and has always been a political project more than a technical one. And it has been very successful with its main goal, which is great; I cannot thank GNU/Linux enough for giving me access to a free Unix-like operating system in my learning years, and for providing a serious alternative to Microsoft in the server world (serious as in: it works about as well and it is cheaper). However, GNU should not be taken for what it isn't, and great ideologies do not good engineering make. GNU is awesome when all the alternatives you have are proprietary software, but the picture gets much uglier when you start looking under the hood and evaluating the software from a sheer technical viewpoint. Most of GNU *is* bloatware, and a significant part of it makes outright bad technical choices; some well-known GNU tools are a consistently bad experience for people who use them everyday and either don't know better, or have no choice because there really isn't any other free alternative. Do not be afraid to give credit where credit is due *and* point out faults where they are; these are not contradictory. And I actually believe that the best way you can be grateful to GNU is to be brutally honest with them so you give them a chance to improve. -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On July 19, 2015 7:42:52 PM CEST, Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com wrote: On Sun, 7/19/15, Nextime next...@nexlab.it wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Sunday, July 19, 2015, 12:23 PM [cut] The issue, for me, is that after install i have to remove nano,or at least change the $EDITOR env var. I don't like to find nano when i do a crontab -e or a visudo. Anyway, the solution is already established, nothing will change in jessie, for ascii a menu will permit to choose the default editor, vim-tiny will be installed in any case. -- nextime It's been obvious for a long time that Devuan is scratching your personal itch. Nothing wrong with that. It's what drives a lot of software development. And in fact, I envisioned the exact scenario you described of having to reset the text editor every time you installed. Must be really annoying. (Isn't there a script to automate that?) But the big picture is that Devuan is about more than just YOU! I appreciate the recent decisions that you have made regarding defaults as they provide choice for all users, not just elite sys admins. Carry on with this magnificent project!! golinux Well of course i propose things I think are usefull, but i ask and consider other opinions as devuan isn't my toy, is what want to be a universal solution ;) -- nextime ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
-Original Message- From: Dng [mailto:dng-boun...@lists.dyne.org] On Behalf Of Didier Kryn Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 12:01 PM To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes Hey T.J. Not Linuxisms, GNUisms. Nano (and Emacs) belongs to GNU, and you know it: GNU's Not Unix! Do not forget we are talking of GNU/Linux. Trying to be POSIX-compliant, sure, but GNU nevertheless... a dilemma :-) Good day. Didier [T.J. Duchene] LOL! =) You make a wonderful point, Didier. Quirks in GNU tools *are* a pain at times, I heartily agree. Still, what cannot be cured must be endured. I think if the FSF actually embarked on making sure their crapware (my personal phrase - no offense anyone) function even remotely close to BSD style (that everyone else outside of Linux uses), they would have to do a complete rewrite. Usually, you just install the GNU tools along with the ones the OS provides and hope for the best when trying to compile. But no, that really was not what I was concerned about. I'm not criticizing Devuan directly, but common standards really aren't the Linux way lately, and it is becoming rather tiresome, at least to me. This is not Devuan's fault, but as a whole, no one involved with Linux seems to care about cross-platform standards anymore. I really do not care of nano is the default editor. I've used it myself, along with joe, vi and an bunch of others over the years. I was just trying to make sure that if things are going to be replaced - as it is inevitable - that common standard remain intact as much as possible. Take care! T.J. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
