Re: [DNG] A better default windows manager

[tilt!]

Steve Litt wrote on 27/07/2015 at 05:18 CEST:

You can roll your own automount with one day's work using inotify-wait,
dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command. Works without X or window
manager. Heck, I'll do it myself if more than 20 people want it.


+1

However, I dont' have sudo installed, will that be a problem? :-)

Greetings,
T.











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Re: [DNG] A better default windows manager

[KatolaZ]

On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 02:49:54PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

[cut]

> 
> As far as Windowmaker and Gnustep, if you can get those to serve you in
> any kind of productive way, you're a better man than I. I find Unity
> easier to use than those two. Speaking of Unity, Unity proved how many
> users a distro could blow off just because of its *default and
> changeable* desktop environment choice. Nobody ever got fired for
> buying Xfce: I'd stick with the plan.


You see Steve, it's always a matter of taste :) I have never been able
to get around with GNOME since GNOME2 went out, and things went worse
with GNOME3 and Unity. The last version of KDE I used was 2.something:
what came next was just confusion, IMHO. 

Apart from my personal "age of Enlightenment", I have always been
happy with WMaker and/or xmonad. Hence I believe I am not a good
example of an "average user", and I think that the default install
should have something like XFCE, LXDE, or WhateverDE. 

I suppose that the average user wants something that does not need any
explanation to work just fine, while I don't mind the default of the
distribution and spend the first few hours after installation
recreating exactly the same environment I have had in my desktop
machines for ages :)

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
[ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ]
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[DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Svante Signell]

On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 23:17 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> That's a very gracious offer, Steve, and I'm sure it will be greatly
> appreciated. =)
> 
> If I might say so, I HATE automount.  Click to mount is fine, but
> automounting peripheral drives like jump drives, CDs and whatnot is an
> inexcusable security risk, in my opinion, even under a UNIX.

Couldn't agree more!

> Mounting should be restricted to only the most experienced users,
> never embedded in the software so every user can across the board.
> The default setup on too many Linux machines reminds me of Windows.

Too sad to see this on GNU/Linux :(

> On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Steve Litt
>  wrote:
> You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
> inotify-wait,
> dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command. Works without X or
> window
> manager. Heck, I'll do it myself if more than 20 people want
> it.
> 
> SteveT
> 

Count me in, now we are three wanting it, including yourself.


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Re: [DNG] Ashley Madison hack

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:45 PM, James Powell  wrote:
> You'd have to really spoof PAM and fool the IDS to some extent, and you have
> Firewalls to get past.


You're assuming there is an IDS.
It may have been via an employee logging in to the company extranet
via cybercafé wireless or something...


-- 
"On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog."
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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Jaromil]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2015, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 23:17 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> > If I might say so, I HATE automount.  Click to mount is fine, but
> > automounting peripheral drives like jump drives, CDs and whatnot is an
> > inexcusable security risk, in my opinion, even under a UNIX.
> 
> Couldn't agree more!

me too...

> > On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Steve Litt
> >  wrote:
> > You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
> > inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command.
> > Works without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself
> > if more than 20 people want it.
> 
> Count me in, now we are three wanting it, including yourself.

worth mentioning here, in relation to the "sudo and mount" deps above,
that 'pmount' the perl wrapper that enables users to mount devices
without root is left unmaintained, last release tagget 0.9.99-alpha
https://alioth.debian.org/projects/pmount

I think is worthed reviving esp. because it allows users to loop-mount
iso files, something that is not possible via 'user' option in fstab

ciao


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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Daniel Cegiełka]

2015-07-27 11:45 GMT+02:00 Jaromil :
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015, Svante Signell wrote:
>> On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 23:17 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
>> > If I might say so, I HATE automount.  Click to mount is fine, but
>> > automounting peripheral drives like jump drives, CDs and whatnot is an
>> > inexcusable security risk, in my opinion, even under a UNIX.
>>
>> Couldn't agree more!
>
> me too...
>
>> > On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Steve Litt
>> >  wrote:
>> > You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
>> > inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command.
>> > Works without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself
>> > if more than 20 people want it.
>>
>> Count me in, now we are three wanting it, including yourself.
>
> worth mentioning here, in relation to the "sudo and mount" deps above,
> that 'pmount' the perl wrapper that enables users to mount devices
> without root is left unmaintained, last release tagget 0.9.99-alpha
> https://alioth.debian.org/projects/pmount
>
> I think is worthed reviving esp. because it allows users to loop-mount
> iso files, something that is not possible via 'user' option in fstab
>

wow! Its magic?

https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/pmount/pmount-debian.git/tree/src/Makefile.am

$(INSTALL_DATA) -o root -g root -m 4755 -D $(INSTALL_SRC)/pmount
$(INSTALL_DIR)/pmount
 ^
no... just suid :)

Daniel
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Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?

[Thorsten Glaser]

 croatiafidelis.hr> writes:
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:06:29AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:

> > What does the Mir" prefix contribute the the meaning?
> > What does "WTF" mean in thei context.  I mean what the fuck?

The “Mir” præfix means it comes from me / The MirOS Project.
“WTF” has OpenBSD-historic connotations.

> At first, one of the DD, Wookey, made:
> 
> systemd-must-die
[…]
> So... The systemd-must-die was not allowed in the repository because of
> the name.

This is not exactly right. I made the package, Wookey uploaded it¹ and
suggested to have two of them (as the systemd-must-die one prevented
also the use of the shim), we talked and ended up having three levels
of prevention, which were also rejected by ftpmasters with a neutral
name because “such a hate package will never be accepted as long as
[that person] am an ftpmaster”. Since then, the collection grew, as
others contributed as well. And it has been useful to many.

> maybe one of the ways might be forking the MirDebian WTF to MirDevuan

I’d be extremely unpleased if you used the Mir præfix there.


Jaromil  dyne.org> writes:

> I did not know Mir's story, neither analysed packages. Are they in a git
repo? that would

No. I dislike git. They used to be in CVS mostly, but that turned out to
be unnecessary overhead, so all you get currently is the most recent
version of the packages as proper Debian source and binary packages,
suitable for all Debian derivates as-is (possibly after a binNMU, but
almost all packages share the same binaries across versions, taking
e.g. the sarge- or etch-built binaries and using them on later ones,
they’re that compatible0.

bye,
//mirabilos
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Re: [DNG] OT: some ancient programming language history

[Didier Kryn]

T.J, would you please try to put dyne.org as To instead of CC, in 
the destination? I think it would enable the button "reply to the list" 
in Thunderbird.


Le 27/07/2015 02:28, T.J. Duchene a écrit :


>  The affectation operator is := instead of = in C, and the
> comparison are = (instead of ==) and /= instead of != . The bad
> choice
> of operators, together with other tricks is probably the main source
> of
> bugs in C programs.

I like the fact that Ada is very strict, because it forces new
programmers to do things right.  On the other hand, that comes at the
cost of flexibility, which makes it useless for certain tasks.

Since C predates Ada by at least a decade, I don't think C is the
problem. I have never had a problem keeping "==", "=" or "!="
straight.


I'm not a teacher and therefore can mostly speak for myself. I 
learned ALGOL in 1972, as already written, and then stopped programming 
for 6 years. Then I learned FORTRAN, which has the same assignment 
symbol as C, '=' . I discovered C in 1981 and used it up to now, which 
makes a honestly long experience, and it still happens to me to type '=' 
instead of '=='.


   The first Ada compiler appeared in 1983. It advertized some 
interesting features and I read a manual, then forgot it because I 
hadn't access to a compiler. This first compiler was running on VMS I 
think. I remember the year very well for other reasons.


So you cannot believe I was "contaminated" by the use of ALGOL-like 
languages.


Using C after FORTRAN, was a liberation. I could do a lot of things 
previously impossible. And there was structs and pointers. I loved 
programming in C. Later I wrote multitask and multithreaded DAQ 
programs. And discovered that a large program becomes rapidly 
un-maintainable, unless you work at least weekly on it.


Around 1994 I had the project of a large multi-host DAQ system and 
I decided to select an appropriate language because C was too low-level. 
I selected Ada after months of enquiry, reading various opinions and 
comparisons, without knowing the language at all. Then I had, by chance, 
the opportunity to follow a one week lecture in 1995 and came out 
thinking I would never write applications in any other language. I had 
the opposite opinion about C++ 5 years before after a one week lecture also.


C is a universal assembler. It is cast after the hardware. A unique 
feature of C is that an assignment has a value; this is because the 
value which has just been stored into memory is still there in a 
register, ready for use. It can be assigned to another variable (stored 
in another location), which allows instructions like "a=b=c;" while 
"b=c; a=b;" would mean an additional and useless load. C compilers have 
long been able to optimize out the additional load, but the instruction 
is still valid.


A lot of C features are driven by the will to give the programmer a 
quasi-direct access to machine instructions. This includes the case 
explained above and pre-increment and post-increment instructions. But 
it makes no sense with modern compilers. The compiler now wipes out 
these optimizations the programmer may think xe has done, reorders the 
instructions, bypasses memory access for non-volatile variables and 
optimizes the whole better than you could do. It remains these funny 
features which are the trademark of C but are nothing but a danger.


If you never make the mistake of using a single = in a comparison, 
then either you have a trick, or you are super-human. Whatever error is 
possible to do, a human will do it for sure. Gcc now gives a warning in 
such cases, but it's enough to enclose in parentheses to avoid the warning.


When you write "C predates Ada", you probably mean there are more 
people programming in C than Ada. So what? That tells nothing on the 
respective merits of the two languages. The fact is there hasn't been a 
good Ada compiler for a decade, because it is a difficult job to write 
one, while, in the contrary, C had been designed to make it easy to 
write compilers. The lack of good Ada compilers is probably one of the 
reasons for the later success of C++ (which started as a C preprocessor).


C enables writing little things quickly and easily; for large 
things, it takes an infinite time to erradicate bugs. Ada is just the 
opposite: bad constructs are forbidden and the compiler checks a great 
many things. It takes longer to have your program compile without error, 
but then it works. There still remains a few possible bugs which cannot 
be found at compile time, but they will rather cause a crash than 
produce wrong results. At the end, you save time. Always.


Sorry for this very long mail. I should better have a web site like 
Steve, and post links.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] OT: some ancient programming language history

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 11:58:55PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
...
> The affectation operator is := instead of = in C, and the
> comparison are = (instead of ==) and /= instead of != . The bad
> choice of operators, together with other tricks is probably the main
> source of bugs in C programs.

It you only program one language in your life, of course this doesn't 
matter much.

But if you frequently change languages, you rapidly find:

= is a bad choice for assignment, because it also means equality.
= is a bad choice for equality, because it also means assignment.

So the only sane choice is to use := for assignment and == for 
equality.  Forget about = altogether.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] OT: some ancient programming language history

[Ron]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 10:32:06 -0400
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> But if you frequently change languages, you rapidly find:
> 
> = is a bad choice for assignment, because it also means equality.
> = is a bad choice for equality, because it also means assignment.
> 
> So the only sane choice is to use := for assignment and == for 
> equality.  Forget about = altogether.

Or, as in APL, use => for assignment and = for equality   (all in one line ;-3)
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   And it should be the law: If you use the word `paradigm' without knowing
  what the dictionary says it means, you go to jail. No exceptions.
 -- David Jones

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

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Re: [DNG] OT: some ancient programming language history

[Ron]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 11:20:03 -0400
Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI  wrote:

> Or, as in APL, use => for assignment 

Sorry, read "use A (left arrow) 1 2 3 4" for assignment
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
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  what the dictionary says it means, you go to jail. No exceptions.
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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Robert Storey]

> > On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Steve Litt
> >  wrote:
> > You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
> > inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command.
> > Works without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself
> > if more than 20 people want it.
>
> Count me in, now we are three wanting it, including yourself.

Well, I definitely want it. Not sure if I'm counted in the original three,
or if I make four.

2015-07-27 11:45 GMT+02:00 Jaromil :
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015, Svante Signell wrote:
>> On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 23:17 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
>> > If I might say so, I HATE automount.  Click to mount is fine, but
>> > automounting peripheral drives like jump drives, CDs and whatnot is an
>> > inexcusable security risk, in my opinion, even under a UNIX.

No one is more paranoid when it comes to security than me. But as for the
security risk of automount, I only see it as a problem if we are talking
about a multi-user system in an organization. A single user at home is a
likely scenario for many of us.

Ideally, automount is something that a user should be able to easily
configure. If you'd rather have click-to-mount or fully manual mount,
that's fine. I don't see why it should be any more difficult than editing a
text configuration file (or clicking a box in a gui) to change the setting.

cheers,
Robert
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Re: [DNG] OT: some ancient programming language history

[Didier Kryn]

Le 27/07/2015 17:45, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI a écrit :

On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 11:20:03 -0400
Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI  wrote:


Or, as in APL, use => for assignment


You mean like in "b+c => a" ?

Interesting because assignment is an invention of imperative 
languages with no "natural" reason for the destination to be on the left 
side.



Sorry, read "use A (left arrow) 1 2 3 4" for assignment


Don't understand what you mean :-)

Didier


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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Dave Turner]

What he said!

My laptop and my desktop will be easy to use.
Multi-user systems are a different kettle of fish. Security has to take 
to take precedence, but make it too difficult and nobody will use your 
new OS in the first place...


DaveT

On 27/07/15 16:49, Robert Storey wrote:


> > On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Steve Litt
> > mailto:sl...@troubleshooters.com>> wrote:
> > You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
> > inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command.
> > Works without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself
> > if more than 20 people want it.
>
> Count me in, now we are three wanting it, including yourself.

Well, I definitely want it. Not sure if I'm counted in the original 
three, or if I make four.


2015-07-27 11:45 GMT+02:00 Jaromil >:

> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015, Svante Signell wrote:
>> On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 23:17 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
>> > If I might say so, I HATE automount.  Click to mount is fine, but
>> > automounting peripheral drives like jump drives, CDs and whatnot 
is an

>> > inexcusable security risk, in my opinion, even under a UNIX.

No one is more paranoid when it comes to security than me. But as for 
the security risk of automount, I only see it as a problem if we are 
talking about a multi-user system in an organization. A single user at 
home is a likely scenario for many of us.


Ideally, automount is something that a user should be able to easily 
configure. If you'd rather have click-to-mount or fully manual mount, 
that's fine. I don't see why it should be any more difficult than 
editing a text configuration file (or clicking a box in a gui) to 
change the setting.


cheers,
Robert





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Re: [DNG] OT: some ancient programming language history

[Lars Noodén]

On 07/27/2015 07:07 PM, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 27/07/2015 17:45, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI a écrit :
>> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 11:20:03 -0400
>> Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI  wrote:
>>
>>> Or, as in APL, use => for assignment
> 
> You mean like in "b+c => a" ?
> 
> Interesting because assignment is an invention of imperative
> languages with no "natural" reason for the destination to be on the left
> side.

IIRC the Icon programming language had an exchange operator to swap the
contents of two variables.

a :=: b

Or something like that.

Regards,
/Lars


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Re: [DNG] OT: some ancient programming language history

[Ron]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 18:07:30 +0200
Didier Kryn  wrote:

>  "use A (left arrow) 1 2 3 4" for assignment  
> 
>  Don't understand what you mean :-)

(letter A) (left arrow symbol) (one or several values or variables)

> You mean like in "b+c => a" ?

that would be:

(letter a) (left arrow symbol) (b + c)
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
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Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
   -- Lazarus Long

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[DNG] Off Topic - Hacker Ethic

[Anto]

I am not a hacker. I had been trying to be one but I failed miserably, 
so I decided to be myself.


I just watched an almost 2 years old but very interesting presentation 
about hacker ethic on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJNUUkx-_38.


Bravo Jaromil! I completely agree with all that you said. And I admire 
your dedication and the dedications of all people like you.


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Re: [DNG] A better default windows manager

[Isaac Dunham]

On Sat, Jul 25, 2015 at 12:00:02AM +, Roger Leigh wrote:
> On 24/07/2015 23:48, James Powell wrote:
> >CDE is a classic UNIX desktop, but it has long been since viable for
> >modern usages.
> >
> >Xfce, in truth, was a modern replacement for it using Xforms since Motif
> >was, at the time, under a different license. It bears the same classic
> >layout minus some differences.

Xfce used to resemble CDE, yes.
But it doesn't have a strong resemblence now.
Of the two, I prefer CDE.

> >However, last I had heard CDE was still unstable with some operations.
> 
> My first thought on reading this was that sounds just like CDE used to be!
> (Being a CDE user back in the mid-late '90s.)

Heh. Sounds about right, given what I've read.
But there were several recent patches that fixed longstanding bugs, and
it's pretty reliable in my own experience.

> I used to really like CDE, and am very tempted to give it a try out sometime
> soon.

You'd probably want to build it from git, rather than the tarball.
Most of the commits are fixes, with a little bit of porting.
Refer to their wiki for (rather old) directions.
(http://sourceforge.net/p/cdesktopenv/wiki/LinuxBuild/)
Some deviations:
- As of Jessie, motif is in main, thus the use of "non-free" is outdated.
- On 32-bit platforms only, you can use tirpc instead of glibc RPC;
this allows using rpcbind without the "-i" option.
On 64-bit systems, using tirpc breaks tooltalk.
- In Jessie, I stumbled across an issue with openbsd-inetd shortly after
switching to Devuan, so I'm not quite sure about how to report it:
the check for RPC support in the init script uses the wrong path.


I usually start it via the sysvinit script, though that isn't quite perfect.
(It probably doesn't do quite enough error checking, and I think the pgrep
invocation may be wrong. Also, I don't think it has a -pidfile option,
though I could add that without too much work...adding -quiet was trivial.)

HTH,
Isaac Dunham
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Re: [DNG] A better default windows manager

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 09:24:45 +0200
tilt!  wrote:

> Steve Litt wrote on 27/07/2015 at 05:18 CEST:
> > You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
> > inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command. Works
> > without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself if more than
> > 20 people want it.
> 
> +1
> 
> However, I dont' have sudo installed, will that be a problem? :-)
> 
> Greetings,
> T.

Yes, unless you want to do it as root every time. Just install sudo and
be very parsimonious about rights it gives out.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 10:10:29 +0200
Svante Signell  wrote:

> On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 23:17 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> > That's a very gracious offer, Steve, and I'm sure it will be greatly
> > appreciated. =)
> > 
> > If I might say so, I HATE automount.  Click to mount is fine, but
> > automounting peripheral drives like jump drives, CDs and whatnot is
> > an inexcusable security risk, in my opinion, even under a UNIX.
> 
> Couldn't agree more!
> 
> > Mounting should be restricted to only the most experienced users,
> > never embedded in the software so every user can across the board.
> > The default setup on too many Linux machines reminds me of Windows.
> 
> Too sad to see this on GNU/Linux :(

Cheer up Svante. This isn't for your corporation's web servers, it's
for the guy with a desktop, the system's only user, a guy who already
has root but just doesn't want to do su all the time, who just wants
automounting to happen.

There are a million different use cases, and on some of them
automounting makes sense. Other times, running a command as a normal
user makes more sense. Other times, only someone with root should be
mounting.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] A better default windows manager

[tilt!]

Hi Steve,

Steve Litt wrote on 28/07/2015 at 06:04 CEST:

[...]

> Just install sudo and be very parsimonious about rights it gives out.
> [...]

For what do you need sudo?

Regards,
T.
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Re: [DNG] A better default windows manager

[Daniel Cegiełka]

2015-07-28 6:04 GMT+02:00 Steve Litt :
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 09:24:45 +0200
> tilt!  wrote:
>
>> Steve Litt wrote on 27/07/2015 at 05:18 CEST:
>> > You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
>> > inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command. Works
>> > without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself if more than
>> > 20 people want it.
>>
>> +1
>>
>> However, I dont' have sudo installed, will that be a problem? :-)
>>
>> Greetings,
>> T.
>
> Yes, unless you want to do it as root every time. Just install sudo and
> be very parsimonious about rights it gives out.

http://www.openwall.com/lists/owl-users/2004/10/20/6

Daniel


> SteveT
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Re: [DNG] A better default windows manager

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 06:13:26 +0200
tilt!  wrote:

> Hi Steve,
> 
> Steve Litt wrote on 28/07/2015 at 06:04 CEST:
> > [...]
>  > Just install sudo and be very parsimonious about rights it gives
>  > out. [...]
> 
> For what do you need sudo?
> 
> Regards,
> T.

So you don't do su - or simply keep a root erminal open.

I thought everyone had sudo, but most people keep sudoers locked up
tight.


SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] OT: some ancient programming language history

[Didier Kryn]

Le 27/07/2015 14:52, Didier Kryn a écrit :
Around 1994 I had the project of a large multi-host DAQ system and I 
decided to select an appropriate language because C was too low-level. 
I selected Ada after months of enquiry, reading various opinions and 
comparisons, without knowing the language at all. Then I had, by 
chance, the opportunity to follow a one week lecture in 1995


Sorry, guys, I'm getting old and confuse recent dates. This was in 
2007/2008 I did this language review. Not very important anyway.


Didier

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