[DNG] Vote for/against netman name change
Hi All, This mail thread is intended to collect votes regarding netman's name change. The question is: Do you agree to renaming netman? The answers should be YES and NO. No long replies needed, I will adhere to the outcome vote. The poll will be open until 11 February 2016. Edward ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 10:39:17PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: > If the new name is not unique, it doesn't help much to rename netman > as potential users will still find difficulty locating it. You really want a name that lets an user googling for it show only related pages -- as this is what users do when they have trouble. Sadly, "netman" is already taken by a quite large number of software projects and services. > One particular reply suggested me to upload the source tarball to sf.net > which is a good idea and which I am considering. Sounds redundant with github to me. > I am trying to help potential users of netman, because writing an open > source software project just to upload it somewhere where it is > virtually inaccessible, does not make sense especially considering the > many hours I sacrificed to write and debug it. > > Please, stop associating my motivation to make netman known to stroke > my ego: this is NOT the case. At my age, I do not need to stroke my > ego, but I do want others to benefit from my own work even though I > will not get paid for it. This is the spirit of writing projects for > causes like Devuan. Having more users means more testers, more contributors. Thus, you do benefit from having your software widely available. I'd strongly recommend not making netman Devuan-specific. If you get it into Debian, it will migrate to most derivatives. And even a small percentage of that is some serious user base. At first, I'd propose putting the package into experimental, until you consider it ready for wider use. As there are DDs on this mailing list, having netman accepted into Debian is something we can help with. -- A tit a day keeps the vet away. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
I think having a web page associated with the sf.net account will help too, some simple html tricks might help it to come up a little bit in the google rankings, and maybe try the same for other search engines like duckduckgo if it won't hurt your google ranking to do so. It could be helpful regardless of a name change, I still sometimes look at sf.net when I'm wanting to find new software. Cheers, chillfan On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 9:39 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi, > > If the new name is not unique, it doesn't help much to rename netman > as potential users will still find difficulty locating it. One > particular reply suggested me to upload the source tarball to sf.net > which is a good idea and which I am considering. > > I am trying to help potential users of netman, because writing an open > source software project just to upload it somewhere where it is > virtually inaccessible, does not make sense especially considering the > many hours I sacrificed to write and debug it. > > Please, stop associating my motivation to make netman known to stroke > my ego: this is NOT the case. At my age, I do not need to stroke my > ego, but I do want others to benefit from my own work even though I > will not get paid for it. This is the spirit of writing projects for > causes like Devuan. > > I would also like to add, that at this age, writing a project like > netman, will not affect my carrier or my potential earnings. I do not > possess enough resources to make use of my newly gained experience > collaborating with Devuan notwithstanding it adds another item to my > CV. > > Edward > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Take back your privacy. Switch to www.StartMail.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
If you are set on changing the name, maybe devuan network manager (DNM). Cheers, chillfan On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 7:05 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi All, > > I did a google search for netman but I was presented with several > pages of results always pointing to other similarly named commercial > projects. Therefore, I am thinking about changing netman's name into a > unique name so that users would be able to be directed to the proper > sites. > > I am suggesting this name: > nm-devuan for network manager Devuan. > > I am open to other suggestions. > > Edward > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Take back your privacy. Switch to www.StartMail.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI
03.02.2016, 14:56, "Steve Litt" : > > Let's talk about a minimal standard of safety as opposed to relying on > "knowing what you're doing." > A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I wouldn't have hesitated using 'rm -rf /' if I was going to remove all of the files from my current installation and reinstall anew. And I still don't understand why one would want a switch that bricks your computer? -peter ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI
Dave Turner writes: > There seems to be an assumption that everybody is a 'power user' and > knows exactly what they are doing. > The reality is not like that at all. > Leaving nasty surprises for the unwary and inexperienced is at worst > malicious and at best incompetent. How does this apply to someone who executed a command "because he wanted to watch GNOME die" after "he unmounted all important filesystem" or - more accurately - wrongly believed to have done so? > I would guess that most of us here have googled for the answer to some > programming or scripting conundrum, and how many stackoverflow etc > answers did you have to go through to find an answer that was correct? > Far too many. How does this apply to the situation? > Now imagine the poor sod new to all this... It is most emphatically > not gross neglect on the part of the user. The 'poor sod' wasn't "new to all of this". ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI
There seems to be an assumption that everybody is a 'power user' and knows exactly what they are doing. The reality is not like that at all. Leaving nasty surprises for the unwary and inexperienced is at worst malicious and at best incompetent. I would guess that most of us here have googled for the answer to some programming or scripting conundrum, and how many stackoverflow etc answers did you have to go through to find an answer that was correct? Far too many. Now imagine the poor sod new to all this... It is most emphatically not gross neglect on the part of the user. And don't get me started on RTFM! If I knew where the authors of some crappy man pages lived I would burn their house down. DaveT On 03/02/16 21:39, Rainer Weikusat wrote: Steve Litt writes: Rainer Weikusat wrote: There are really only two options: 1. Don't mount or mount r/o and require user interfaction prior to working with these variables. 2. Mount r/w and expect people messing around with the fs as superuser to know what they're doing. [another misused analogy] In a Poettering/UEFI world, railings are all less than 2 feet high, high rise picture windows are large and low, mountain roads have no guard rails on curves, bridge abutments have no sand barrels in front of them, and people who draw blood don't wear rubber gloves. We all know what we're doing, and if something goes wrong, we deserve what we get. None of these statements is applicable to the situation. This was about first intentionally executing a command supposed to delete everything accessible via any some mounted filesystem and then 'discovering' that this command deleted some things which should rather have been kept. Executing such a command without knowing which filesystems are mounted and how this will affect the state of the machine is not "an unfortunate accident" but simply gross neglect. Regarding the different-but-related issue of 'buggy software' causing the deletion, there should be a prominent "policy choice" to prevent any modification of 'EFI variables' unless a user specifically oks that. That's also something where the "systemd responses" of "our convenience beats your hardware" (as we make the descisions) is clearly wanting. But that's because users are supposed to be in control of their hardware/ software and not because random morons "want to watch GNOME die". ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI
Steve Litt writes: > Rainer Weikusat wrote: > >> There are really only two options: >> >> 1. Don't mount or mount r/o and require user interfaction prior to >>working with these variables. >> >> 2. Mount r/w and expect people messing around with the fs as superuser >>to know what they're doing. [another misused analogy] > In a Poettering/UEFI world, railings are all less than 2 feet high, > high rise picture windows are large and low, mountain roads have no > guard rails on curves, bridge abutments have no sand barrels in front > of them, and people who draw blood don't wear rubber gloves. We all > know what we're doing, and if something goes wrong, we deserve what we > get. None of these statements is applicable to the situation. This was about first intentionally executing a command supposed to delete everything accessible via any some mounted filesystem and then 'discovering' that this command deleted some things which should rather have been kept. Executing such a command without knowing which filesystems are mounted and how this will affect the state of the machine is not "an unfortunate accident" but simply gross neglect. Regarding the different-but-related issue of 'buggy software' causing the deletion, there should be a prominent "policy choice" to prevent any modification of 'EFI variables' unless a user specifically oks that. That's also something where the "systemd responses" of "our convenience beats your hardware" (as we make the descisions) is clearly wanting. But that's because users are supposed to be in control of their hardware/ software and not because random morons "want to watch GNOME die". ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
Hi, If the new name is not unique, it doesn't help much to rename netman as potential users will still find difficulty locating it. One particular reply suggested me to upload the source tarball to sf.net which is a good idea and which I am considering. I am trying to help potential users of netman, because writing an open source software project just to upload it somewhere where it is virtually inaccessible, does not make sense especially considering the many hours I sacrificed to write and debug it. Please, stop associating my motivation to make netman known to stroke my ego: this is NOT the case. At my age, I do not need to stroke my ego, but I do want others to benefit from my own work even though I will not get paid for it. This is the spirit of writing projects for causes like Devuan. I would also like to add, that at this age, writing a project like netman, will not affect my carrier or my potential earnings. I do not possess enough resources to make use of my newly gained experience collaborating with Devuan notwithstanding it adds another item to my CV. Edward ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI
On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 20:07:33 + Rainer Weikusat wrote: > There are really only two options: > > 1. Don't mount or mount r/o and require user interfaction prior to >working with these variables. > > 2. Mount r/w and expect people messing around with the fs as superuser >to know what they're doing. Let's talk about a minimal standard of safety as opposed to relying on "knowing what you're doing." The following is a story about a woman who pushed her husband out their 25th floor window, either accidentally, negligently, or with motive to kill: http://tinyurl.com/z6vj3eq http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2293486/Amber-Hilberling-murder-trial-Wife-says-bushing-Air-Force-husband-17th-floor-window-accident.html And here's a photo of a similar window in the building: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/14/article-2293486-18AB5EAB05DC-906_634x337.jpg A window going from somewhere between 2 and 3 feet off the floor, proceeding to about 6 feet off the ground. No railings, no crossbeams, no patio outside. If a normal sized adult hit that window hard enough to break it, he/she would fall to his/her death. I take no stand to the woman's guilt or innocence or motivation, but looking at that room, it would immediately strike me as dangerous. I'm surprised more inhabitants of that building haven't fallen to their deaths. We all know what we're doing, but sometimes there's an accident. You're having a tug of war with your 100 pound dog, the dog lets go, and you go right out the window. In a Poettering/UEFI world, railings are all less than 2 feet high, high rise picture windows are large and low, mountain roads have no guard rails on curves, bridge abutments have no sand barrels in front of them, and people who draw blood don't wear rubber gloves. We all know what we're doing, and if something goes wrong, we deserve what we get. SteveT Steve Litt February 2016 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 04:36:36PM +, KatolaZ wrote: > On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 11:24:16AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > > > I suggest netwiz. Or ifwiz, which does not exist on google. I would > > > avoid ipwiz, since there apparently exists already a tool named ipwiz > > > for macosx. > > > > Ah. The interactive wizards that run your system for you. > > A trendy name, suitable if you like the Windows approach. > > So let netwiz be the GUI front end, and let netmgr be the back end. > > Let us install one without the other, and write new front ends far > > into the future. > > Eheheheh! I didn't have in mind Windows at all when I suggested ifwiz, > to be honest :) I haven't seen a Windows installation in the last 15 > years or so, so if there are wizards over there, their power has not > had any effect on me lately. Or perhaps I should put back on my > tinfoil-hat... > > The only "wizard" I remember was an icon in the front page of the > setup tool of KDE 1.something :D Not absolutely sure, but Windows was the first place I saw where people routinely ended up using setup wizards (that was what they were called, wizards) to do incomprehensible things to their systems when installing software or hardare or such. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
Hi, > On 03/02/2016, KatolaZ wrote: > I still don't understand why you persist asking for feedback if then > you don't tolerate feedback that is not in line with what you > expect. Respondents are free to write clearly why they choose a name implying a joke or a pun. I cannot read minds, therefore, I have to be contented with the actual literal meaning of replies. > I understand that everyone is proud of their own little > babies, but I pesonally find more interesting names which suggest a > pun, either implicitly of explictly. Proud of what? I am not that kind of person. Netman had only proven that I could do it with some help. It is immature and childish to be proud like that: the world does not need to revolve around me; I am only an organism with a lifespan of around seventy years living on a planet that is 5500 Million Years old. My existence is therefore effectively nothing. > Conman would be a nice joke, IMHO, exactly because of it explicitly > suggesting "fraudster" while being something else, but obviously you > are free to name your little baby as you want. Humour is vastly culture dependent. > Just don't get why you > want to share your personal murmurations about your own choice, given > that you don't want anybody to interfere with such choice in practice, This is false. While I was writing the project I was open to many suggestions. I even implemented ideas with which I was in disagreement. The "obstinacy" on my part was always the result of failing to follow suggestions due to unexpected output from commands which meant I could NOT follow those suggestions. So, in those situaitions I had to find a way out by myself. The reason for this "obstinacy" is I couldn't allow myself to waste time if another solution was more time efficient for me. > you get terribly upset if somebody makes a joke out of it... I didn't get upset. For example, today, I didn't quit using the computer because I got upset, but because I had other errands. My life involves more than using a computer: I have to eat every day and that requires me to earn a living which takes time. Edward ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI
Boruch Baum writes: > Can anyone answer: > > 1] Does this vulnerability apply when the UEFI is operating in "legacy > boot" mode instead of "secure boot" mode? I recall that when I was > originally setting up my only UEFI-equipped device that there were > differences between the two modes in how I needed to set up the > partition table. This isn't really a "vulnerability". It's an API for performing certain operations and some of the operations one can perform in this way reportedly interact very badly with buggy firmware. 'Legacy boot mode' should usually mean 'use a/the BIOS' instead of 'use UEFI' (that's at least what it meant on my computer) hence, it should sidestep the issue. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI
Rainer Weikusat writes: > Simon Hobson writes: [...] >> Just mounting r/w leaves us with the problem as already described. > > I see no problem with this Addition: IMHO, this should be a system-wide policy descision someone should consciously make during setup, ie, mount it r/w and then "stuff just works" but errant commands can damage things or mount it r/o and take care that it becomes r/w whenever and for as long as needed. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI
Simon Hobson writes: > Rainer Weikusat wrote: > >>> Or the third option - mount r/o and remount r/w when needed. >> >> As I wrote in the original text, that's a extremely bad idea because >> this means it may suddenly be affected by an already running command >> never supposed to work with it. > > The window for that must be "very small". Yes I know about TOCTOU > issues, but unless a command has a long execution time, then it's got > to run during "just" the small window between the fs being made r/w > and it being made r/o again - typically a few seconds. rm -rf / will have a long execution time. But that's besides the point: The guy who killed his laptop could have avoided that. With an "remount whenever systemd feels like that" mechanism, nobody can anymore. > Requiring user intervention (ie making it writeable) has just the same > problem - except that the window is very much longer. It doesn't. In this case, someone administrating the machine has been informed (at least) about the fact that such-and-such a filesystem will become writeable until and that someone can coordinate his activities with those of other people, including his own. > Just mounting r/w leaves us with the problem as already described. I see no problem with this except the cultural problem that "GUI people" are accustomed to being able to press random buttons in random sequences while always being stopped by a child-proof lock before anyhing actually happens[*]. And nothing which hasn't been computerized works in this way: If I turn my stove on, the burners get hot despite this is a seriously dangerous device when used incorrectly. [*] Coincidentally, the same people usually prefer household appliances to be operated by less fumble-happy "expert technicians". ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 12:40:25PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 09:54:53 +0100 > aitor_czr wrote: > > > On 02/03/2016 08:30 AM, Mitt Green wrote: > > > I don't think it should contain Devuan word in it, > > > as long as people from other communities > > > will probably use it too. > > > > +1 > > That was my first thought too, and I almost wrote it. > > But then I started to think: If it were called nm-devuan, that would > certainly let people know that Devuan is more than just a few > malcontents playing whack-a-mole with Debian and Freedesktop. nm-devuan because it's a Devuan-specific NetworkManager plugin, got it. -- A tit a day keeps the vet away. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 11:48:43 +0100 Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi All, > > It nice to learn from trolls that my little "pitbull", netman, is a > thorn deeply in their side. But, let us discuss the new name, so that > users would find it more readily while searching the internet. Yes, > trolls do not like this move which shows it is a good move. > > What about: "nm-pitbull" in honour of the trolls? :D > > > Thanks to all Trolls. > Your feedback is much appreciated. :D What trolls? I haven't seen a troll in this thread. SteveT Steve Litt February 2016 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 09:54:53 +0100 aitor_czr wrote: > On 02/03/2016 08:30 AM, Mitt Green wrote: > > I don't think it should contain Devuan word in it, > > as long as people from other communities > > will probably use it too. > > +1 > > Aitor. That was my first thought too, and I almost wrote it. But then I started to think: If it were called nm-devuan, that would certainly let people know that Devuan is more than just a few malcontents playing whack-a-mole with Debian and Freedesktop. SteveT Steve Litt February 2016 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI
Simon Hobson escribió: [...] - remounts as r/w - runs the command - remounts as r/o [...] 2) Prompt the user that this needs to be done (perhaps with warnings about other stuff accessing the fs), and ask for confirmation before doing it. [...] This sounds as the best way to go, in almost any case. regards Noel er Envite binJk6zju00jr.bin Description: Clave PGP pública pgpRriV97Lcmn.pgp Description: Firma digital PGP ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On 02/03/2016 04:41 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: Sorry, i'm sending messages from the future once again. In that case, could you let us know what name was finally chosen ? ;-3) Cheers, Ron. Very sharp :) Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 11:24:16AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: [cut] > > > > I suggest netwiz. Or ifwiz, which does not exist on google. I would > > avoid ipwiz, since there apparently exists already a tool named ipwiz > > for macosx. > > Ah. The interactive wizards that run your system for you. > A trendy name, suitable if you like the Windows approach. > So let netwiz be the GUI front end, and let netmgr be the back end. > Let us install one without the other, and write new front ends far > into the future. Eheheheh! I didn't have in mind Windows at all when I suggested ifwiz, to be honest :) I haven't seen a Windows installation in the last 15 years or so, so if there are wizards over there, their power has not had any effect on me lately. Or perhaps I should put back on my tinfoil-hat... The only "wizard" I remember was an icon in the front page of the setup tool of KDE 1.something :D HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 02:51:14PM +, KatolaZ wrote: > On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 03:41:53PM +0100, aitor_czr wrote: > > On 02/03/2016 03:28 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > >I like netmgr and netmanx. > > > > > >"mgr" is more suggestive of manager than "man" is. > > > > > >And netmanx is fun. But I think netmgr is more descriptive. > > > > > >-- hendrik > > > > My vote is for netmgr :) > > > > Aitor. > > I suggest netwiz. Or ifwiz, which does not exist on google. I would > avoid ipwiz, since there apparently exists already a tool named ipwiz > for macosx. Ah. The interactive wizards that run your system for you. A trendy name, suitable if you like the Windows approach. So let netwiz be the GUI front end, and let netmgr be the back end. Let us install one without the other, and write new front ends far into the future. -- hendrik > > My2Cents > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 03:05:52PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > Haines Brown writes: > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 08:04:26AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote: > > Not having received an answer, > > I answered both of your questions. My apologies. Your message for some reason did not show up, but I managed to find get it. Your helpful reply has convinced me to replace my Debian Sid with Devuan alpha2. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
My vote is also netmgr Best Regards | ISMAEL | - Original Message - From: aitor_czr To: Edward Bartolo ; Hendrik Boom ; dng Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 9:41 AM Subject: Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name. On 02/03/2016 03:28 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: I like netmgr and netmanx. "mgr" is more suggestive of manager than "man" is. And netmanx is fun. But I think netmgr is more descriptive. -- hendrik My vote is for netmgr :) Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI
Rainer Weikusat wrote: >> Or the third option - mount r/o and remount r/w when needed. > > As I wrote in the original text, that's a extremely bad idea because > this means it may suddenly be affected by an already running command > never supposed to work with it. The window for that must be "very small". Yes I know about TOCTOU issues, but unless a command has a long execution time, then it's got to run during "just" the small window between the fs being made r/w and it being made r/o again - typically a few seconds. Requiring user intervention (ie making it writeable) has just the same problem - except that the window is very much longer. Not to mention, the risk of forgetting to "lock the door" again afterwards. Just mounting r/w leaves us with the problem as already described. So IMO, of the options presented, remounting as required would seem (to me) to be the least bad. One way I could see it being done (and avoiding the need to modify exiting utils) would be to provide a wrapper which : - remounts as r/w - runs the command - remounts as r/o The wrapper can be made as simple or complicated as wanted - and could, for example, do one of several things : 1) Prompt the user that the fs needs to be remounted r/w and wait for the user to do it 2) Prompt the user that this needs to be done (perhaps with warnings about other stuff accessing the fs), and ask for confirmation before doing it. 3) Have a config option to assume a "yes" response to option 2) - in much the same way as the -y or --force flag on so many utilities. Option 3) puts the choice in the hands of the admin - it's up to him to set the option, and if the config file is suitably commented then that also deals with the "inform the user of the problem" aspect that no amount of release notes etc will cover. I think we all agree that as long as there are EFI systems that are broken in this way, then there is no "100% safe" way around it - just varying degrees of "least bad". ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI
Steve Litt writes: > Rainer Weikusat wrote: >> There are really only two options: >> > [snip] >> >> 2. Mount r/w and expect people messing around with the fs as superuser >>to know what they're doing. > > Chefs know what they're doing, but they still have fire extinguishers > with which to put out any fires. If there's a fire extinguisher in a kitchen then because the guy who runs the establishment won't get an insurance otherwise. On it's own, he'd very likely rather avoid the expense based on "it ain't gonna happen" (and in case it does, he'll complain to the builder because "Why did this have to be flammable ? Didn't you realize this meant it will burn ?!? This is entirely your fault !!! I want my money back " even if only because there's at least a slight chance that this might work). Silly jokes about the analogy aside, I don't see why it would apply here. The case in point was someone intentionally running rm -rf / because he was convinced this would only damage stuff he wanted to damage. This means he either didn't bother to check which filesystems where actually mounted or wrongly assumed that deleting everything made available by them would be harmless. One could argue that exposing EFI variables in the filesystem in this way is not a good idea but this would then apply to the code providing this API and not the code which pretty much has to use it. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Haines Brown writes: > On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 08:04:26AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote: >> I suspect I could remove the /lib/systemd/ directory entirely, and it >> might block any systemd-udev from changing network interface name, and >> systemd=logind from freezing user's frozen desktop. >> >> So let me ask: if I delete the directory and its contents, will I still >> have a functioning Sid system? > > Not having received an answer, I answered both of your questions. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI
Simon Hobson writes: > Rainer Weikusat wrote: > >> There are really only two options: >> >> 1. Don't mount or mount r/o and require user interfaction prior to >> working with these variables. >> >> 2. Mount r/w and expect people messing around with the fs as superuser >> to know what they're doing. > > Or the third option - mount r/o and remount r/w when needed. As I wrote in the original text, that's a extremely bad idea because this means it may suddenly be affected by an already running command never supposed to work with it. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 03:41:53PM +0100, aitor_czr wrote: > On 02/03/2016 03:28 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >I like netmgr and netmanx. > > > >"mgr" is more suggestive of manager than "man" is. > > > >And netmanx is fun. But I think netmgr is more descriptive. > > > >-- hendrik > > My vote is for netmgr :) > > Aitor. I suggest netwiz. Or ifwiz, which does not exist on google. I would avoid ipwiz, since there apparently exists already a tool named ipwiz for macosx. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On 02/03/2016 03:28 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: I like netmgr and netmanx. "mgr" is more suggestive of manager than "man" is. And netmanx is fun. But I think netmgr is more descriptive. -- hendrik My vote is for netmgr :) Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 08:04:26AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote: > I suspect I could remove the /lib/systemd/ directory entirely, and it > might block any systemd-udev from changing network interface name, and > systemd=logind from freezing user's frozen desktop. > > So let me ask: if I delete the directory and its contents, will I still > have a functioning Sid system? Not having received an answer, I went ahead and did it. It had several effects: a) the reported bug that had made it difficult to shutdown the X server disappeared, b) the boot no longer goes over the a higher resolution but remains VGA, c) trying to startx as user now produces error that screen can't be found, d) now the freeze of the desktop affects root as well. I have a choice: re-install Sid from scratch or install devuan. I'd much rather do the latter, but I'd prefer to wait for the beta. So let me ask the question that can't be answered: when is the beta likely to surface? Within a month or so or not likely until well after mid year? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 14:50:46 +0100 aitor_czr wrote: > Sorry, i'm sending messages from the future once again. In that case, could you let us know what name was finally chosen ? ;-3) Cheers, Ron. -- Kilroe hic erat! -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 02:48:07PM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > > What about netmgr? The current name netman gives associations on having to do > with manual stuff. I like netmgr and netmanx. "mgr" is more suggestive of manager than "man" is. And netmanx is fun. But I think netmgr is more descriptive. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
netman was great. On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 10:50 AM, aitor_czr wrote: > On 03/09/2021 11:07 PM, aitor_czr wrote: > > On 03/02/16 13:00, Florian Zieboll > wrote: > > I was going to suggest GUIP (from gui and ip) > > > Mmmh..., there is a backend which works without requiring any gui. > >Aitor. > > > Sorry, i'm sending messages from the future once again. > >Aitor. > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On 03/09/2021 11:07 PM, aitor_czr wrote: On 03/02/16 13:00, Florian Zieboll wrote: I was going to suggest GUIP (from gui and ip) Mmmh..., there is a backend which works without requiring any gui. Aitor. Sorry, i'm sending messages from the future once again. Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On Wed, 2016-02-03 at 08:05 +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi All, > > I did a google search for netman but I was presented with several > pages of results always pointing to other similarly named commercial > projects. Therefore, I am thinking about changing netman's name into a > unique name so that users would be able to be directed to the proper > sites. > > I am suggesting this name: > nm-devuan for network manager Devuan. > > I am open to other suggestions. What about netmgr? The current name netman gives associations on having to do with manual stuff. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On 03/02/16 13:00, Florian Zieboll wrote: I was going to suggest GUIP (from gui and ip) Mmmh..., there is a backend which works without requiring any gui. Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On 03/02/16 13:00, fsmithred wrote: What about: "nm-pitbull" in honour of the trolls? :D > The cat lovers among us might prefer Netmanx. Or... Edbarx Netmanx. fsr I like 'Netmanx'. Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 11:48:43AM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi All, > > It nice to learn from trolls that my little "pitbull", netman, is a > thorn deeply in their side. But, let us discuss the new name, so that > users would find it more readily while searching the internet. Yes, > trolls do not like this move which shows it is a good move. > > What about: "nm-pitbull" in honour of the trolls? :D > > > Thanks to all Trolls. > Your feedback is much appreciated. :D I still don't understand why you persist asking for feedback if then you don't tolerate feedback that is not in line with what you expect. I understand that everyone is proud of their own little babies, but I pesonally find more interesting names which suggest a pun, either implicitly of explictly. Conman would be a nice joke, IMHO, exactly because of it explicitly suggesting "fraudster" while being something else, but obviously you are free to name your little baby as you want. Just don't get why you want to share your personal murmurations about your own choice, given that you don't want anybody to interfere with such choice in practice, and you get terribly upset if somebody makes a joke out of it... KatolaZTheTroll -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On 03/02/2016 12:00, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: In exactly this sense: Let's leave "transmuting into organic fertilizer" to the fraudsters and break up this boring and somehow quite exhausted "network - connection - manager" triangle... +1 on "connection" and "manager"... Let's take a moment to grossly oversimplify what the software does! It helps you put things up, inspect them, and take them down again. What other tools allow that? How about "net-peg" or "net-pin"? Or, looking around my work area desperately for similar metaphors, "net-sticker" or "cable-tie" :) David ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 11:48:43 +0100 Edward Bartolo wrote: > Thanks to all Trolls. > Your feedback is much appreciated. :D Ho Edward, actually I didn't want to share my first spontaneous idea, but now I kind of have to, although you sometimes seem to excessively like getting things wrong ;) I was going to suggest GUIP (from gui and ip). A quick web search then led me to the urbandict, which says that this unique combination of letters is already being used in a rather unfavorable sense. In exactly this sense: Let's leave "transmuting into organic fertilizer" to the fraudsters and break up this boring and somehow quite exhausted "network - connection - manager" triangle... Florian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On 02/03/2016 05:48 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote: > What about: "nm-pitbull" in honour of the trolls? :D > The cat lovers among us might prefer Netmanx. Or... Edbarx Netmanx. fsr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
The current name sounds decent, maybe you could host the tarballs on sf.net so people can find it there. On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 7:05 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi All, > > I did a google search for netman but I was presented with several > pages of results always pointing to other similarly named commercial > projects. Therefore, I am thinking about changing netman's name into a > unique name so that users would be able to be directed to the proper > sites. > > I am suggesting this name: > nm-devuan for network manager Devuan. > > I am open to other suggestions. > > Edward > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Take back your privacy. Switch to www.StartMail.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
Hi All, It nice to learn from trolls that my little "pitbull", netman, is a thorn deeply in their side. But, let us discuss the new name, so that users would find it more readily while searching the internet. Yes, trolls do not like this move which shows it is a good move. What about: "nm-pitbull" in honour of the trolls? :D Thanks to all Trolls. Your feedback is much appreciated. :D Edward On 03/02/2016, aitor_czr wrote: > Changing the Subject :) > >> On 02/03/2016 08:30 AM, Mitt Green wrote: >>> Edward Bartolo wrote: >I am suggesting this name: >nm-devuan for network manager Devuan. >>> I don't think it should contain Devuan word in it, >>> as long as people from other communities >>> will probably use it too. >>> >>> netconman for Network Connections Manager >>> would be nice. >> > > 'Netconman' is very similar to the existing 'connman', and 'Network > Connections Manager' is too long. > > Another choice: > > *nm-tools* > > Cheers, > > Aitor. > > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI
Simon Hobson writes: Or the third option - mount r/o and remount r/w when needed. IIRC you can switch an already mounted filesystem from r/o to r/w 'on the fly' (ie without unmounting it first) - is the reverse possible (ie change a r/w mount to r/o) ? Yes. mount -o remount,ro. I've done that more than once on android (remounting like that is how you get rid of the tasteless and/or annoying boot animations most vendors like). Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad UEFI: was Systemd at work: rm -rf EFI
Rainer Weikusat wrote: > There are really only two options: > > 1. Don't mount or mount r/o and require user interfaction prior to > working with these variables. > > 2. Mount r/w and expect people messing around with the fs as superuser > to know what they're doing. Or the third option - mount r/o and remount r/w when needed. IIRC you can switch an already mounted filesystem from r/o to r/w 'on the fly' (ie without unmounting it first) - is the reverse possible (ie change a r/w mount to r/o) ? Given that it's only a very very small number of programs that actually need this ability, it does seem that the "sensible" way is to make those few programs do a tiny bit of extra work and make the system safe. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
aitor_czr wrote: >'Netconman' is very similar to the existing 'connman', and >'Network Connections Manager' is too long. Okay, maybe connetman then? :) >Another choice: >*nm-tools* nm-tool is a binary, provided by network-manager package. Mitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
Changing the Subject :) On 02/03/2016 08:30 AM, Mitt Green wrote: Edward Bartolo wrote: >I am suggesting this name: >nm-devuan for network manager Devuan. I don't think it should contain Devuan word in it, as long as people from other communities will probably use it too. netconman for Network Connections Manager would be nice. 'Netconman' is very similar to the existing 'connman', and 'Network Connections Manager' is too long. Another choice: *nm-tools* Cheers, Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Dng Digest, Vol 17, Issue 12
Hi all, On 02/03/2016 08:30 AM, Mitt Green wrote: Edward Bartolo wrote: >I am suggesting this name: >nm-devuan for network manager Devuan. I don't think it should contain Devuan word in it, as long as people from other communities will probably use it too. netconman for Network Connections Manager would be nice. 'Netconman' is very similar to the existing 'connman', and 'Network Connections Manager' is too long. Another choice: *nm-tools* Cheers, Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
On 02/03/2016 08:30 AM, Mitt Green wrote: I don't think it should contain Devuan word in it, as long as people from other communities will probably use it too. +1 Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
